Railroad thread

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Thought I'd give yet another update on the American passenger trains of my TL. Special thanks to @TheMann for giving ideas and input.

Aside from the ATSF, DRGW/WP, and Southern, all of the country's passenger trains are run by the Amtrak group. Eight regionally-operated companies that were created during the Reagan Administration as a way to make funding for Amtrak and the scope of said funding easier. These regional companies are, with their special colors, are Northeast (Tuscan Red), Midwest (Deep Blue), Southeast (Deep Green), Florida (Purple), Texas (Bright Red), Colorado (Yellow), Cascades (Bright Green), and California (Orange). These companies also collaborate with various freight railroads and each other to run Amtrak InterRegional, with its Bright Blue colors. In addition, several companies have been set-up by individual states to provide feeder services.

Let's look at the last few non-Amtrak passenger trains in the US first:

Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe [1]
- Super Chief: Chicago - Kansas City - Wichita - Trinidad - Santa Fe - Albuquerque - Belen - Flagstaff - San Bernardino - Los Angeles - San Diego
- Missouri Chief: St. Louis - Springfield - Tulsa - Avard - Amarillo - Belen - Flagstaff - San Bernardino - Los Angeles - San Diego
- Frisco Chief: Chicago - Kansas City - Wichita - Amarillo - Belen - Flagstaff - Bakersfield - Oakland - San Jose - San Fransisco
- Dixie Chief: Birmingham - Memphis - Springfield - Tulsa - Avard - Amarillo - Belen - Flagstaff - San Bernardino - Los Angeles - San Diego
- Texas Chief: Chicago - Kansas City - Wichita - Oklahoma City - Ft. Worth - Cleburne - Temple - Houston

Denver & Rio Grande Western/Western Pacific
- Prospector [1]: Pueblo - Colorado Springs - Denver - Glenwood Springs - Grand Junction - Salt Lake City - Ogden - Oakland
- San Juan [2]: Alamosa - Antonito - Chama - Durango - Silverton

Southern
- Southern Crescent [3]: Washington DC - Lynchburg - Charlotte - Atlanta - Birmingham - New Orleans

[1] A more touristic fare compared to most Amtrak trains that run between Colorado and California.
[2] This train exists mainly because of the DRGW narrow gauge's revitalization when natural gas was discovered in the beginning of the Cold War. This train is also famous for being hauled mainly by the DRGW's fleet of NG Mikados
[3] This train survived when the Amtrak Group expressed a reluctance to use the Southern railroad in its entirety. Which is why the Southern still runs the Crescent today. As such, Amtrak has its own New York - San Antonio train called the Great Southeasterner.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

Virginian
Admittedly, this is a bit out there due to the line's use of design copied from the N&W and C&O, though I think it's an idea still worth brining up.

I agree its unlikely but it would be interesting

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I agree its unlikely but it would be interesting

That said, I did latch on to the idea of a Garratt in the Southern Rathole for a reason.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann

I was looking at the Amtrak routes you gave me for use as reference to create derivatives, and was curious about how your TL gave Kill Devil Hills, NC rail service

 

[Virginia Liberal]

I guess it could be done the orginal Norfolk Southern did bridge the Albermaral sound further inland

 

[TheMann]

@TheMann

I was looking at the Amtrak routes you gave me for use as reference to create derivatives, and was curious about how your TL gave Kill Devil Hills, NC rail service

I guess it could be done the orginal Norfolk Southern did bridge the Albermaral sound further inland

The original Norfolk Southern was pretty much my plan, along with a desire by the state of North Carolina to have rail service to the Outer Banks and the heavy tourist business of Kill Devil Hills, Kitty Hawk and the other communities of the outer banks. The route runs from original NS at Elizabeth City and runs mostly parallel to US 158 and crosses on the Wright Memorial Bridge, which IOTL had a second span built in the 1990s to alleviate congestion on the original bridge, so it was just a matter of adding two railroad tracks to it.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

The original Norfolk Southern was pretty much my plan, along with a desire by the state of North Carolina to have rail service to the Outer Banks and the heavy tourist business of Kill Devil Hills, Kitty Hawk and the other communities of the outer banks. The route runs from original NS at Elizabeth City and runs mostly parallel to US 158 and crosses on the Wright Memorial Bridge, which IOTL had a second span built in the 1990s to alleviate congestion on the original bridge, so it was just a matter of adding two railroad tracks to it.

In that case, what if my derivative were to have it be a joint project between the NS and the state of North Carolina in the 1950s? Or would a latter date be better?

 

[TheMann]

I was thinking more about certain Amtrak trains @TheMann let me borrow, and thought I'd detail some of my own, and see if anyone had critiques.

Royal Palm: Detroit - Cincinnati - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Savannah - Jacksonville - Orlando - Miami

The Floridian: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Savannah - Jacksonville - Orlando - Miami

Texas Rocket: Twin Cities - Des Moines - Kansas City - Wichita - Oklahoma City - Ft. Worth - Austin - San Antonio

Old Dominion: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati - Charleston - Bluefield - Roanoke - Richmond - Petersburg - Norfolk

Southwest Limited: Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City - Wichita - Trinidad - Santa Fe - Albuquerque - Belen - Flagstaff - Phoenix - Los Angeles [1]

Tennesseean: Boston - New York - Philadelphia - Baltimore - Washington DC - Richmond - Petersburg - Roanoke - Bristol - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Nashville - Memphis

Pelican Express: Washington DC - Richmond - Raleigh - Charlotte - Atlanta - Montgomery - Mobile - New Orleans - Houston - San Antonio [2]

Bluegrass: Atlanta - Chattanooga - Nashville - Memphis - Little Rock - Dallas - Ft. Worth

[1] This train came out of Amtrak taking advantage of a series of deals with the Santa Fe. In which the ATSF could keep running its own passenger trains in exchange for co-operating with Amtrak where the latter saw fit.
[2] The service is run entirely by Amtrak Southeast as a way to link Montgomery and Mobile with the rest of its network.

If I may comment on these:

The Royal Palm only makes sense if you've kept Detroit both strong and rich as a city and have kept the idea of rail travel prevalent there. That's a hard thing to do, and even if it is possible, you'd end up with a train that gets virtually all of its business from the northern end of the route. As for the route, you'd make the Southern's life much easier if you could run the Royal Palm and Floridian close together on the schedule, to get them out of the way of the freights on whatever route you're running, or split them way apart so whatever business you are getting going through Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia can choose their departure times. You may wish for the Royal Palm to make it an Auto Train, as the area around the Michigan Central Terminal has the room for Auto Train loading docks.

I can't see the Southwest Limited or Old Dominion working, the former because the ATSF isn't going to like a competitor on its rails and the latter because (as both the Baltimore and Ohio and Norfolk and Western found out post-WWII IOTL, and Amtrak deals with today) there simply isn't much business on that route. You'd be getting all of it from Virginia going to Chicago and vice versa. If you are intent on going with the Southwest Limited and the ATSF is running its own passenger trains, stay clear of them as much as possible, and run it via the Rock Island, Rio Grande and Southern Pacific on a Chicago-St. Louis-Kansas City-Denver-Salt Lake-Las Vegas-Los Angeles route. That way you add to your options for travelers going across the Midwest and get to add to your fleet of trains racing through the scenery of the Rocky Mountains. The Old Dominion, short of massively increasing the business available from Virginia (The Norfolk-Newport News region becomes a larger population center, perhaps?), I can't see it not being a money loser for Amtrak.

The Texas Rocket is a good idea, though here I'd strongly recommend doing a merger of trains, with a section from Chicago and a section from the Twin Cities, merging in Des Moines. Other than that, it's a good setup, though Amtrak's own Texas-to-Chicago trains and the ATSF's trains will end up being rivals. I presume you have a Texas HSR here, so have the trains be powered by electrics and run fast (like 100+ mph) on the HSR lines, and make sure the equipment you use is designed to suit, and make sure you have plenty of comfortable coaches in the consist for travelers not going the whole way.

The Tennessean is interesting as an idea, perhaps with the state of Tennessee picking up some of the tab in order to get an Amtrak train that takes people from the state straight to the business centers of the Northeast. I'm seeing this one being a train for lots of tourists and travelers for enjoyment, particularly past Richmond when you're off of the high-speed lines. As the coach passengers are unlikely to take this one when there is all of the Acelas and Metroliners available to them, make this one a comfortable train and make sure it departs Boston early enough for its riders to see the best of the Blue Ridge Mountains in daylight, preferably in the early evening. This does mean you'll probably be arriving at Memphis rather late. Ditch the drop down to Chattanooga - waste of time, and you could time one of the long-distance Amtrak trains above to meet with the Tennessean at Knoxville or Nashville to give passengers a way of getting to Chattanooga.

 

[TheMann]

In that case, what if my derivative were to have it be a joint project between the NS and the state of North Carolina in the 1950s? Or would a latter date be better?

You could do it that way, or you could do it as part of a WPA project and butterfly the original bridge to the Outer Banks. Either way would work.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I can't see the Southwest Limited or Old Dominion working, the former because the ATSF isn't going to like a competitor on its rails and the latter because (as both the Baltimore and Ohio and Norfolk and Western found out post-WWII IOTL, and Amtrak deals with today) there simply isn't much business on that route. You'd be getting all of it from Virginia going to Chicago and vice versa. If you are intent on going with the Southwest Limited and the ATSF is running its own passenger trains, stay clear of them as much as possible, and run it via the Rock Island, Rio Grande and Southern Pacific on a Chicago-St. Louis-Kansas City-Denver-Salt Lake-Las Vegas-Los Angeles route. That way you add to your options for travelers going across the Midwest and get to add to your fleet of trains racing through the scenery of the Rocky Mountains. The Old Dominion, short of massively increasing the business available from Virginia (The Norfolk-Newport News region becomes a larger population center, perhaps?), I can't see it not being a money loser for Amtrak.

In that case, would OTL's proposed Transdominion Express work as a way to link Roanoke and SW Virginia with the rest of the system?
As for the issue of competition with Santa Fe, how would that affect the Front Range regional services from Cheyenne to El Paso, or the City of Los Angeles New York - LA Train? If there's not other way, what if I were to have the Southwest Limited replaced with a continuation of the Rock Island/Southern Pacific's Golden State? What if I were to simply have the ATSF be the last railroad to join the Amtrak group?

The Texas Rocket is a good idea, though here I'd strongly recommend doing a merger of trains, with a section from Chicago and a section from the Twin Cities, merging in Des Moines. Other than that, it's a good setup, though Amtrak's own Texas-to-Chicago trains and the ATSF's trains will end up being rivals. I presume you have a Texas HSR here, so have the trains be powered by electrics and run fast (like 100+ mph) on the HSR lines, and make sure the equipment you use is designed to suit, and make sure you have plenty of comfortable coaches in the consist for travelers not going the whole way.

Indeed, Amtrak Texas will be giving the them an edge, though the fact they closely parallel Santa Fe does present heavy competition.

The Tennessean is interesting as an idea, perhaps with the state of Tennessee picking up some of the tab in order to get an Amtrak train that takes people from the state straight to the business centers of the Northeast. I'm seeing this one being a train for lots of tourists and travelers for enjoyment, particularly past Richmond when you're off of the high-speed lines. As the coach passengers are unlikely to take this one when there is all of the Acelas and Metroliners available to them, make this one a comfortable train and make sure it departs Boston early enough for its riders to see the best of the Blue Ridge Mountains in daylight, preferably in the early evening. This does mean you'll probably be arriving at Memphis rather late. Ditch the drop down to Chattanooga - waste of time, and you could time one of the long-distance Amtrak trains above to meet with the Tennessean at Knoxville or Nashville to give passengers a way of getting to Chattanooga.

My idea for a Tennessee regional service (Memphis - Nashville - Chattanooga - Knoxville) might be perfect in that case. Even so, I did have the idea of extending this as far as Dallas via Little Rock. Meanwhile, I was thinking the Carolinan, which in my TL runs from Chicago to Kill Devils Hills, could justify dipping into Chattanooga since its mainly meant as touristy fare.

You could do it that way, or you could do it as part of a WPA project and butterfly the original bridge to the Outer Banks. Either way would work.

In the case of a WPA project, I could see it being billed as "ride or drive to Kitty Hawk". The bridge would be as you proposed with two railroad tracks sandwiched between the roads. As for when my TL's take on the Carolinan (which would go from Chicago to Kill Devil Hills) comes about in 1983, I had the idea that N&W 1218 could haul the train on its maiden voyage since both it and N&W 611 were restored much earlier in my universe.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

, I had the idea that N&W 1218 could haul the train on its maiden voyage since both it and N&W 611 we

For a lot of what you have the 611 doing she is gonna have to avoid the derailment in the 1980s (I believe) that warped her drive wheels that today limit her speed to 40mph since no one makes replacements or can fix them anymore. But assuming she missed that fate have the 611 pull it, she was the racehorse for Express traffic.

Said side note NS is closing the Roanoke Shops.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

For a lot of what you have the 611 doing she is gonna have to avoid the derailment in the 1980s (I believe) that warped her drive wheels that today limit her speed to 40mph since no one makes replacements or can fix them anymore. But assuming she missed that fate have the 611 pull it, she was the racehorse for Express traffic.

That, among less fortunate events, will definitely be hit by the butterflies of my universe.

Said side note NS is closing the Roanoke Shops.

Not in my TL. The fact it's the center for the PRR's electrification of the ex-N&W will mean it stays around longer.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

After reading some ideas @TheMann showed me for some regional rail lines he created, I thought I'd make a few of my own:

Transdominion: This is a network of services in Virginia that operate from Bristol to Norfolk over the PRR's former N&W mainline via Lynchburg and Roanoke. In addition, the line also has services that run to Washington DC via the Southern Railroad at Lynchburg. Yet another branch at Farmville allows trains to access Richmond via the Southern, then Newport News via the Chessie's ex-C&O line. While the PRR's ex-N&W is electrified, the others are not; which is why these services use Turbine-powered DMUs instead of EMUs.

Appalachia: Created to serve the state of Tennessee, this service is known as the "Up-Down" due to the line's nature on a map. These services begin at Memphis, then run to Nashville and Chattanooga over the L&N's former NC&StL line. At Chattanooga, the line run north over the Southern to Knoxville and on to Morristown, where the line then splits to run to either Bristol, or across the state border to Asheville, NC. These trains are timed to link with such major Amtrak trains as the Carolinan (Chicago - Kill Devil Hills) [1].

Keystone: This service is meant mainly as a way for people going to southern Pennsylvania from New York. Services run out of New York over the D&H's ex-Jersey Central mainline to Allentown. At which point that trains then run over the Chessie's ex-Reading to Harrisburg via Reading. The remainder of the services then run over the PRR to Pittsburgh via Altoona. In addition, a recent proposal has been to include a branch from Reading to Jersey City via Philadelphia, and the extension of services on the ex-CNJ to Wilkes-Barre and Scranton. Much like the Transdominion in Virginia, this line uses Turbine DMUs because not all the lines are electrified.

Dairylander: A high-frequency service designed to link Green Bay and Eau Claire with Amtrak Midwest's Wisconsin mainline. This service, hauled by DMUs, operates over the Union Pacific's ex-CNW line from Milwaukee to Green Bay via Fond Du Lac and Okosh. From Green Bay, the line runs over additional ex-CNW rail to Eau Claire then on to the Twin Cities via Wausau and Merrillan. Before the arrival of DMUs, this service was provided with diesel-hauled consists, though on famous occasion in 1987 saw a service being pulled by Union Pacific 844.

Caprock: High frequency services run by Amtrak Texas to connect its main network to Amarillo. This service runs from Ft. Worth to Sweetwater via Abeline over the Milwaukee Road's former MoPac mainline. From Sweetwater, the service then runs over the ATSF's line to Amarillo via Lubbock and Canyon. At Amarillo, there is a connection to one of the branches of Amtrak Colorado's Front Range service, which takes passengers to Denver via the DRGW lines. In recent years, some have proposed another line to El Paso from Sweetwater, which would also use the ex-MoPac.

Pere Marquette: An alternate Chicago - Detroit that serves the two cities via Grand Rapids and Lansing. At Grand Rapids, another line runs north to serve Mackinaw City via Traverse City. This train uses the Cheesie's ex-Pere Marquette for most of its operation, barring the Bay City - Mackinaw City portion of the route, which runs over the Pennsylvania Railroad's territory.

Huron: Michigan's other major regional service, this runs over the Grand Trunk's mainline with DMUs from Detroit to Bay City via Pontiac, Durand, and Saginaw. Additionally, another part of the same service is largely intended as a way for Amtrak trains with Detroit termini (such as the Performer to New York or the Pan-American to San Antonio) to serve the city of Port Huron.

[1] After what @TheMann said, I realized it may be better if the Knoxville - Memphis portion of the Tennesseean run over the route via Chattanooga and Huntsville instead of via Nashville.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

Yet another branch at Farmville allows trains to access Richmond via the Southern,

You plan on using Hull Street station for this or routing a line that connects the southern line to Main street station or Broad Street station?

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

You plan on using Hull Street station for this or routing a line that connects the southern line to Main street station or Broad Street station?

I'll probably have a new line created as part of a greater plan to extend the Northeast Corridor.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

News Articles from Raleigh's The News & Observer

KITTY HAWK AND KILL DEVIL HILLS TO RECEIVE RAIL SERVICE
In recent years, talk of proper transport to the mainland has been an interesting premise to residents of the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Thanks to the Norfolk Southern railroad however, this may become a possibility in the foreseeable future. In recent years, a growth in popularity for the islands as a tourist spot has grown. Not just due to its costal nature, but also due to the recent popularity it has gained as a landmark location for the Wright Brother's first experiments with aircraft.

"Considering how Henry Flagler managed to build his own railroad through the keys," said an employee for the railroad, "I doubt we'd have any problem just getting to Kitty Hawk."

Recently, the WPA has announced an active collaboration to link the island from the Norfolk Southern mainline at Elizabeth City. From there, the trains will run to Barco, Poplar Branch, and finally Point Harbor. At Point Harbor, the railroad will be sandwiched between a pair of road bridges to cross Currituck Sound into Kitty Hawk.

Ground-breaking on the bridge, which will be the first part constructed, is expected to begin in November this year.
-June 26, 1933

WRIGHT MEMORIAL BRIDGE TO OPEN THIS WEEKEND
- Headline for March 16, 1935; the day before the first Norfolk Southern passenger train ran over the new Kitty Hawk Subdivision and over the Wright Memorial Bridge

STEAM ENGINE WILL PULL NEW AMTRAK "CAROLINAN" INTO KITTY HAWK
With the arrival of the Amtrak passenger train the Carolinan from Chicago, there will also be something that's truly rare in the present day - a steam locomotive pulling the train. The honor will be going to Norfolk & Western 1218.

The 1218 was built in 1943 by the N&W in its own Roanoke Shops in Virginia. During its revenue era, the 1218 hauled freight and sometimes passenger trains through the Virginias and Ohio at high speeds. Nonetheless, the advent of diesels and electrics meant the 1218 was out of service by 1962. Nonetheless, the 1218 and two if its classmates, 1202 and 1230, survived and were used as stationary boilers until moving to new homes. The 1202 went to display in Cincinnati; the 1230 went to Welch, WV; and the 1218 wound up back in Roanoke.

The 1218 was on display in Roanoke for several years until 1978. When the Virginia Museum of Transportation, in collaboration with the Pennsylvania Railroad, restored the engine to excursion service alongside 4-8-4 611. Since then, it has toured numerous rail lines in the Eastern US, including frequent doubleheaders with the 611.

"We chose a steam engine to run the first ever consist of this train because we wanted the first run to be especially memorable," explained Amtrak CEO Graham Claytor, "The 1218 was chosen for the job because it's well suited to the mountains of Tennessee and western North Carolina that the train runs through - especially on the leg from Nashville to Chattanooga then Knoxville."
- February 2, 1984

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@Confederate Liberal

I was thinking about what to do with Roanoke ITTL, and was wondering if you had an idea for how we could store 611, 1218, (and maybe 2174 and 105) at Roanoke.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Regarding the recent discussions for Roanoke shops, I had some ideas loosely based on what @Republic of Michigan had proposed for the area in a PRR+N&W merger.

Early on the partnership the Roanoke Shops were always eager to show the PRR what could be done with their machines. The trend would begin with the N&W sending some A Classes north of the PRR. Soon after, they go on to rebuild several M1s and L1s are Roanoke with vast modern steam improvements like roller bearings, self-lubricants, and stronger steam generators. The R2 4-8-4s of the PRR proper would also inspire the N&W Js ITTL.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Another idea I had was a special engine the GN would run over the Stevens Pass line in steam days. I was thinking diesels would eventually take over, then the line is electrified in the 1980s. I was thinking either 4-8-2+2-8-4 Garratt, or a 4-6-6-2 Cab Forward.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

@Confederate Liberal

I was thinking about what to do with Roanoke ITTL, and was wondering if you had an idea for how we could store 611, 1218, (and maybe 2174 and 105) at Roanoke.

You mean not at the VTM like they are now ? Maybe have an NW roundhouse on the line saved Roanoke had one I'd bet Lynchburgs was destroyed long ago Crewes was around until the 60 or 70s I believe but it was in really bad shape at the end.