Did the Reich have a better chance of taking Moscow or Leningrad in 1941?

Did the Reich have a better chance of taking Moscow or Leningrad in 1941?

  • Germany had a better chance at taking Leningrad

    Votes: 98 85.2%

  • Germany had a better chance at taking Moscow

    Votes: 17 14.8%
  • Total voters
    115
Captain Homicide

Captain Homicide

During the Nazi invasion of the USSR which goal did the Reich have the most plausible chance of accomplishing: taking Leningrad or taking Moscow?

Which outcome requires the fewest PODs?

If Moscow was taken how would this affect Leningrad and vice versa?
 

Cudymcar

Hitler did not intend to "take" Leningrad, it was doomed to be annihilated with all the people within. Hitler's direct order was to decline any Leningrad's pleas to surrender.
 

Deleted member 1487

Cudymcar said:
That's totally true. Cited at the Nuremberg Trial.
www.zeno.org

Der Nürnberger Prozeß, Hauptverhandlungen, Fünfundsechzigster Tag. Freitag, 22. Februar 1946, Vormittagssitzung

Volltext Geschichte: Vormittagssitzung. Der Prozeß gegen die Hauptkriegsverbrecher vor dem Internationalen Gerichtshof Nürnberg. Nürnberg 1947, Bd. 8, S. 121-142.
www.zeno.org
Click to expand...
It was true after a certain point, IIRC September. Until then though it was the plan to take it. Then when taking it was considered to be too costly they opted to blocked and destroy it. Then that didn't work out the way they wanted, so they planned to take it again in 1942, but that didn't work out due to Soviet offensives, they they went back to blockade until that fell apart.
 

Deleted member 1487

Captain Marvel said:
During the Nazi invasion of the USSR which goal did the Reich have the most plausible chance of accomplishing: taking Leningrad or taking Moscow?

Which outcome requires the fewest PODs?

If Moscow was taken how would this affect Leningrad and vice versa?
Click to expand...
Honestly it's probably just slightly more likely to take Leningrad with the fewest PODs. If Moscow is taken Leningrad would fall. IMHO going after Leningrad in 1941 was a fool's errand and an entirely political/personal goal of Hitler's rather than a viable objective. IMHO AG-North should have been a flank guard for AG-Center.
 
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Alexniko

Cudymcar said:
That's totally true. Cited at the Nuremberg Trial.
www.zeno.org

Der Nürnberger Prozeß, Hauptverhandlungen, Fünfundsechzigster Tag. Freitag, 22. Februar 1946, Vormittagssitzung

Volltext Geschichte: Vormittagssitzung. Der Prozeß gegen die Hauptkriegsverbrecher vor dem Internationalen Gerichtshof Nürnberg. Nürnberg 1947, Bd. 8, S. 121-142.
www.zeno.org
Click to expand...

That proves that the Wehrmacht was ordered not to accept the surrender of Leningrad (not that such a surrender was ever considered, but still). It doesn't prove that the nazis didn't want to take Leningrad. They planed to obliterate the city, but in the end the swastika was to fly over the burning ruins (luckily that never happened).
 
Anarcho-Occultist

Anarcho-Occultist

I think the odds of the Nazis seizing Leningrad (regardless of what they intended to do with it) is greater than Moscow if only because I imagine that the Soviet military would be much more committed to defending the national capital to the point of making the Germans pay dearly for every street they advanced.
 

Cudymcar

Anarcho-Occultist said:
I think the odds of the Nazis seizing Leningrad (regardless of what they intended to do with it) is greater than Moscow if only because I imagine that the Soviet military would be much more committed to defending the national capital to the point of making the Germans pay dearly for every street they advanced.
Click to expand...
Actually, Stalin was ready to order his troops to leave Moscow.
 

Mynock

Leningrad was already encircled and the Germans didn't even properly reach Moscow. I'd say Leningrad if they put the work in but it wouldn't be easy.
 
History Learner

History Learner

Banned
wiking said:
Honestly it's probably just slightly more likely to take Leningrad with the fewest PODs. If Moscow is taken Leningrad would fall. IMHO going after Leningrad in 1941 was a fool's errand and an entirely political/personal goal of Hitler's rather than a viable objective. IMHO AG-North should have been a flank guard for AG-Center.
Click to expand...

How would that logistically have been possible?
 

Deleted member 1487

History Learner said:
How would that logistically have been possible?
Click to expand...
What, being a flank guard? Same way they were supplied in OTL, but better since they aren't going to be trying to advance to Leningrad, just stop on the Luga river and clear Estonia ASAP.
 
BlackDragon98

BlackDragon98

Banned
All the Kriegsmarine's warships like KMS Bismarck, Prinz Eugen and Co could have been put to better use bombarding Leningrad till it surrendered once Kronstadt was surrounded and the Soviet Baltic Fleet was imprisoned in port.
All those big guns would have crushed Leningrad within 2 weeks of constant bombardment.
Supplies for the ships can be shipped to Riga via steam powered merchants to save oil.
The big ships can take turns bombarding so there at least one ship on bombardment duties while others get restocked with ammo and stuff.

Unfortunately, Raeder and Hitler were 2 of the dumbest shits of the century.
Too bad for the Reich.
 
History Learner

History Learner

Banned
wiking said:
What, being a flank guard? Same way they were supplied in OTL, but better since they aren't going to be trying to advance to Leningrad, just stop on the Luga river and clear Estonia ASAP.
Click to expand...

I thought you meant like they would be operating on the same axis of advance, which automatically raised to mind how two Army Groups could be supplied. Still, how exactly is clearing Estonia guarding AGC's flank?
 
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Deleted member 1487

History Learner said:
I thought you meant like they would be operating on the same axis of advance, which automatically raised to mine how two Army Groups could be supplied. Still, how exactly is clearing Estonia guarding AGC's flank?
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Diverts Soviet attention and wiped out forces that could be used to attack, plus secures that flank all the way to the Baltic. Then the only way to get at AG-North is via Narwa and the Luga river.
AGN-1-31Aug-1024x680.jpg

Had they not advanced in August beyond the Luga (and in July worked on clearing the flank of AG-Center by dealing with 22nd army around Velikiye Luki) they'd be in a good position to deal with Soviet forces attacking out of the Staraya Russa area and around Kholm as well as contribute forces to deal with Soviet armies around Velikiye Luki instead of forcing AG-Center to send 3rd Panzer army and 8th air corps to help AG-North.
 
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