Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

[TheHandsomeBrute]

Here is a good Wikipedia map by Bennet Schulte/Wikipedia:

By Bennet Schulte - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0 de, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=8961180

I don't know how real it really is... But it does correlate to the official confessional map done by Imperial Germany done in 1890:

But one also has to remember before the first Partition of Poland allot of Protestants Polish people moved into Southern East Prussian and Silesia. Also not all Catholics are also Polish.

But ceding Posen (or parts of it) could be a smooth move from Germany - 'if you want to be Polish why didn't you leave with Posen?'

Why would any Goverment give away territory that is there. If the Polish want to be in Poland have them leave to Poland.

 

[LeCHVCK]

I think it would be pretty likely that a polish version of the ira would form in the german part of Poland. However I don't think that they'd be successful.

 

[TheHandsomeBrute]

I think it would be pretty likely that a polish version of the ira would form in the german part of Poland. However I don't think that they'd be successful.

The German government could also force an "unequal" population exchange before it even becomes a issue. A couple million Poles for the 500,000 Germans who live in the Congress of Poland.

This is though not likely. The sections of the Military/Government and People who wanted the border strip in OTL wanted to create a zone of Germans inbetween the poles in Poland and the Poles in Eastern Prussia.

 

[haider najib]

Poland has no coastline does it have free port access then with germany or Lithuania?

Why would any Goverment give away territory that is there. If the Polish want to be in Poland have them leave to Poland

Thats the thing, german poles aren't playing that game, instead they claim this land is polish aswell as them is polish. poles are minority, but have luck of being majority or strong plurality in the lands they claim as polish. The if you want to poland move to poland fails here as the area is culturally polish they have cultural dominance and germans cant do anything about it. There enough poles to supresse german assimilation and to counter german advantages. If it gets worse german minorities in these lands could get a tougher time as poles eventually get more money will make life harder for them.

 

[Snaut]

For Poland's independence, I had thought it would be more of an independent Kingdom, as I seem to remember some scene with the King and Pilsudski getting along well.

Suppose they are having a friendly chat when they are suddenly interrupted by the German ambassador. "Excuse me, gentlemen. I am very sorry to interrupt, but we need to talk about these new radio factories in Warsaw. Bad quality? On the contrary, the radios might not be top notch, but they are of excellent quality for such a modest price. And this is kind of the problem. You see, German companies don't appreciate this competition. And since we liberated you, you guys owe us a favour here..." What happens next is a better test of independence than wether maps of Europe show some territory labelled "KINGDOM OF POLAND".

 

[Jürgen]

I could see Germany giving up Posen even if I find it unlikely, the rest; never. But I also think people makes to much of the issue, Germany have won the war, which pretty much mean it won’t be a major issue. Beside that in Upper Silesia a lot of Poles voted to staying in Germany even in OTL, so that’s not a issue, in West Prussia the Poles doesn’t have a majority without the Kashubians and I suspect the Kashubians will without the post-Versailles chaos decide that they prefer to stay in Germany.

 

[Snaut]

I could see Germany giving up Posen even if I find it unlikely, the rest; never. But I also think people makes to much of the issue, Germany have won the war, which pretty much mean it won’t be a major issue. Beside that in Upper Silesia a lot of Poles voted to staying in Germany even in OTL, so that’s not a issue, in West Prussia the Poles doesn’t have a majority without the Kashubians and I suspect the Kashubians will without the post-Versailles chaos decide that they prefer to stay in Germany.

OTOH the German election results prior to WWI imply that Kashubians identified with Poles, and support for the Polish Party in Upper Silesia increased over time.

 

[Help]

OTOH the German election results prior to WWI imply that Kashubians identified with Poles, and support for the Polish Party in Upper Silesia increased over time.

Did they vote for Poland in the referendum too? I had not realized about that.

 

[haider najib]

I could see Germany giving up Posen even if I find it unlikely, the rest; never. But I also think people makes to much of the issue, Germany have won the war, which pretty much mean it won’t be a major issue. Beside that in Upper Silesia a lot of Poles voted to staying in Germany even in OTL, so that’s not a issue, in West Prussia the Poles doesn’t have a majority without the Kashubians and I suspect the Kashubians will without the post-Versailles chaos decide that they prefer to stay in Germany.

They don't need to revolt they have the numbers to through eastern prussian economy into haywire. Moreover this can be there Catalonia, they have enough to be a constant pain and raise the issue whenever they want. If the poles boycott german business prussia will be in trouble.

 

[Jürgen]

They don't need to revolt they have the numbers to through eastern prussian economy into haywire. Moreover this can be there Catalonia, they have enough to be a constant pain and raise the issue whenever they want. If the poles boycott german business prussia will be in trouble.

Catalonia is the Ruhr District of Spain, Posen is the Extremadura of Imperial Germany.

 

[carlton_bach]

I will try to address this briefly because i am soooo tired, but gratified to come back home from my holidays to this level of engagement:

Germany ITTL does not treat its Polish minority well. It's not in the DNA of ethnic nation states to do that, and Germany is as ethnic as it gets in this early twentierth century Europe. That said, do not imagine Nazi levels of evil, or even Apartheid style stuff. The legal system does not support it, and unlike IOTL's Wilhelm II, both Albert and Wilhelm III care about the law.
Germany's Polish minority vote, mainly for the Polenpartei. The party itself is organised along ethnic lines and not politically cohesive. Some of its representatives are conservative feudalists who deplore ethnic nationalism and pine for a nonexistent age when pure loyalty to the crown united German and Pole. Others support the annexation of their home areas to Poland. But most really just want to be treated decently by the state and fight institutional battles to that end.
The whole issue of the 'incomplete liberation', the dream of undoing the Partition and reclaiming poland's former greatness, will remain a subtle poison in Polish politics for generations. Polish school atlases will include 'claimed areas', conservative politicians will use the uissue to beat the 'defeatist, pro-German' leftists , and the state will spend considerable funds on fostering a Polish identity among the Prussian Poles (many of whom actually are integrating into German-language mainstream society especially in the cities). Everybody knows there is no way in hell that they are getting Silesia or Galicia back, though.
Over time, the repression of the German state will relax as it realises there is no actual danger of a Polish revolt. By the end of the century, Polish will be a recognised minority language and the old days of German-only rules for clubs and church communities distant memories. But harmful stereotypes will continue. on both sides. The divide remains, more so the closer you get to the Polish border.

 

[TheHandsomeBrute]

Thats the thing, german poles aren't playing that game, instead they claim this land is polish aswell as them is polish. poles are minority, but have luck of being majority or strong plurality in the lands they claim as polish. The if you want to poland move to poland fails here as the area is culturally polish they have cultural dominance and germans cant do anything about it. There enough poles to supresse german assimilation and to counter german advantages. If it gets worse german minorities in these lands could get a tougher time as poles eventually get more money will make life harder for them.

They can try to play whatever game they want to play they don't hold the write card to force into to become there games. The negatives for a German Government is too much, a little more than third of the population in Posen is German, that's including the Jews. It would also create extreme hostility in Prussia for the Imperial Government, which is funny considering how the Imperial Government is run.

I could see Germany giving up Posen even if I find it unlikely, the rest; never. But I also think people makes to much of the issue, Germany have won the war, which pretty much mean it won’t be a major issue. Beside that in Upper Silesia a lot of Poles voted to staying in Germany even in OTL, so that’s not a issue, in West Prussia the Poles doesn’t have a majority without the Kashubians and I suspect the Kashubians will without the post-Versailles chaos decide that they prefer to stay in Germany.

It would force the fall of any Federal/Imperial Government that did it and there would be a huge push form the state powers, with popular support,even in Prussia, to severely limit the powers of the Imperial Government so no such thing can happen to them.

 

[Jito]

I will try to address this briefly because i am soooo tired, but gratified to come back home from my holidays to this level of engagement:

Germany ITTL does not treat its Polish minority well. It's not in the DNA of ethnic nation states to do that, and Germany is as ethnic as it gets in this early twentierth century Europe. That said, do not imagine Nazi levels of evil, or even Apartheid style stuff. The legal system does not support it, and unlike IOTL's Wilhelm II, both Albert and Wilhelm III care about the law.
Germany's Polish minority vote, mainly for the Polenpartei. The party itself is organised along ethnic lines and not politically cohesive. Some of its representatives are conservative feudalists who deplore ethnic nationalism and pine for a nonexistent age when pure loyalty to the crown united German and Pole. Others support the annexation of their home areas to Poland. But most really just want to be treated decently by the state and fight institutional battles to that end.
The whole issue of the 'incomplete liberation', the dream of undoing the Partition and reclaiming poland's former greatness, will remain a subtle poison in Polish politics for generations. Polish school atlases will include 'claimed areas', conservative politicians will use the uissue to beat the 'defeatist, pro-German' leftists , and the state will spend considerable funds on fostering a Polish identity among the Prussian Poles (many of whom actually are integrating into German-language mainstream society especially in the cities). Everybody knows there is no way in hell that they are getting Silesia or Galicia back, though.
Over time, the repression of the German state will relax as it realises there is no actual danger of a Polish revolt. By the end of the century, Polish will be a recognised minority language and the old days of German-only rules for clubs and church communities distant memories. But harmful stereotypes will continue. on both sides. The divide remains, more so the closer you get to the Polish border.

Will there be flashpoints of violence? Riots, assassination attempts, lynchings, police killings, bombings? Basically I'm trying to figure if this will be more along the lines of Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Movement in the US, or the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

 

[Vingilótë]

Is there really no chance Poland could reclaim Galicia? If there's an Austro-Hungarian blowup, it seems almost inevitable

 

[carlton_bach]

Will there be flashpoints of violence? Riots, assassination attempts, lynchings, police killings, bombings? Basically I'm trying to figure if this will be more along the lines of Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Movement in the US, or the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

Hmmm. I think more like Norn Iron than the Old South, but not a lot like either. There is no Cold War setting for background beat, no foreign intelligence service crazy enough to give the Posen or Silesian Poles so much as a firecracker. There is violence, though. Mostly isolated, but systematic: police beatings for 'uppity' and 'awkward' Poles, nasty brawls where individual Poles or Germans get the shit kicked out of them by drunk mobs, schoolyard bullying, isolated revenge attacks. Attempts to 'Germanise' land by systematic purchase and reallocation along ethnic lines are met by arson, sabotage and boycott. Police overreact to demonstrations, and the resulting clashes could probably be classed as 'riots', though not the kind you see in the USA. Not lynchings - that is not a tradition we get in Germany much. Though definitely biased courts and wrongful convictions.

Terrorism will happen, because twentieth century, but no concerted efforts, no stable organisations. The Polish minority will not support an IRA-like system because most Prussian Poles know they stand to gain more through political representation and because without outside support, it cannot withstand police efforts. Warsaw politicians will talk a great deal of the Lost Lands, but they would be nuts to allow any kind of material support to cross the border. Polish authorities cooperate fully in quashing such stupidity. The occasional self-appointed cell or lone wolf will bomb a courthouse or shoot a public official, but these are very much isolated cases. Compared to the toll of right-wing violence in the Konservative Revolution years, it is a statistical blip.

Ultimately, it will be political organisation, not organised violence, that wears down the oppressive mechanism of the german stzate. Berlin will relax its grip because it has won. The Polish minority has effectively been rendered picturesque and unthreatening. Economic opportunity, the assimilating effect of modern media, and the sheer power of the modern state apparatus have seen to that.

 

[carlton_bach]

Is there really no chance Poland could reclaim Galicia? If there's an Austro-Hungarian blowup, it seems almost inevitable

I do not think Germany would allow it.

 

[haider najib]

again im stupid so how are german danes along with Alsatians doing?

 

[carlton_bach]

again im stupid so how are german danes along with Alsatians doing?

Reasonably poorly. German authorities can't be quite as nasty to them as to the Poles (both for racist reasons - they are fellow Germanic peoples after all - and because both Paris and Copenhagen will protest), but they are discriminated minorities. that won't change for many years. A lot of Alsatians emigrate to France. German authorities permit this, the French encourage it. the danes are less inclined to move, and relations there will improve slightly faster because Denmark is not a real threat or problem and most Germans feel vaguely well-disposed towards Scandinavians. Even difficult ones like the Schleswig Danes.

 

[haider najib]

A lot of Alsatians emigrate to France.

Sorry follow up, is metz still majority french? Moreover are there any tl demographic changes in the empire? German colonists population, the native empires subjecy has the genocide in Namibia happened? With no destruction of german industry is germany deceiving immigrants?

 

[carlton_bach]

Sorry follow up, is metz still majority french? Moreover are there any tl demographic changes in the empire? German colonists population, the native empires subjecy has the genocide in Namibia happened? With no destruction of german industry is germany deceiving immigrants?

I assume that this is going to change over time, though not quickly. French will remain a significant minority language, and probably the majority language in the rural areas until he 1930s or so.
The biggest demographic change was the dent that the war made in the male cohorts. This feeds down the line into smaller numbers of marriages, more women in employment, fewer births to older parents. Also, the production boost that the war enforced gave an added push to urbanisation, so more people are living in cities and especially in the polisdh and Kashubian minority areas, the balance of languages tilts more towards the minorities. This will result in enough jitters to the Völkische to create bad policies.
Germany remains a net exporter of people, but not to the same extent it was IOTL. Increasingly, that will change. By the 1920s, the country will begin to attract immigrants, especially from Central Europe.
The herero genocide has not happened, but the Nama were expelled from their areas, resulting in many deaths. German colonial rule generally is not nice for the native populations. But Germany does not really have a successful settler colony. they're trying with Südwest, but it's not going to work anywhere near as well as Berlin hopes. More German emigrants would go to the United States, Australia or Argentina than there.