Deleted member 1487
Lever delayed actually. It was basically the Danvuia 39M, which the UK was able to manufacture for about 5£
SwampTiger
Banned
The9x19 and the 9x25 are both derived from the 7.65x25 Borchardt. It would be a minor problem to extend the cartridge case to 30+mm. However, under quick and dirty rules, stick to the in production cartridges. The lever delayed Kiraly design would be great if you have the time and capability to get it into production. If not, Beretta and Italy are more than willing to sell guns and licensing for MP 38's. The MP 44 variant is not much different than the Sten.
marathag
Banned
found this
the history of Romanian motorcycles begins before WWII. Tohan Industrial Works was founded in 1938 in Zarnesti, in central Romania, as a subsidiary of the Malaxa group. It specialized in making bicycles and motorcycles. Tohan products became famous during the war, when they made munitions, pyrotechnics and rockets for the Romanian army
Malaxa factoriers were founded in 1921 in Bucharest by Nicolae Malaxa, a Romanian engineer and industrialist. Main activities were the repairing of the rolling stock, manufacturing steam locomotives, diesel locomotives, car-engines and passenger coaches, Diesel engines, brake equipment, special alloy steels. By the end of the 1930s, the Malaxa factories were one of the biggest industrial groups in Southeastern Europe, and the main provider of equipment for the Romanian Railways during the period .
In 1930, most Romanian Provinces were at least 73% Rural in population. Don't see why Ruralia wouldn't be similar
Maybe something along the lines of the sterling or Canadian C1 (that I believe was a slightly value engineered sterling ?)
Romania also had a population of nearly 20 million people before WW2, just how big is Ruralia? Romania built artillery, aircraft, submarines, ships, and other relatively complex stuff. Not a whole lot, or leading edge, but certainly more than I would expect from a small rural backwater country.
Back on topic, Romania apparently bought a few thousand Beretta 38s and during WW2 built another few thousand of this bad boy https://modernfirearms.net/en/submachine-guns/romania-submachine-guns/orita-m1941-eng/ in their state arms factory (freshly modernised in the late twenties with help from Vickers-Armstrong and Cz). That maybe gives a baseline for what Ruralia can aspire to when it’s grown up a bit.
Deleted member 1487
Romanian was the biggest oil producer in Europe outside the USSR, so they weren't exactly without money flowing around compared to a rural country like Slovakia or maybe even Hungary.
marathag
Banned
The Malaxa Conglomerate had little to do with the Oil section of the economy, but was with their RR groups.
So I take that 'Ruralia' would be similar, though no oil wealth, but Bulgaria had State Railway, so why not the other?
Ruralia has been said in these threads to possess coastal shipbuilding, light aircraft manufacturing, motorcycle manufacturing and a motor industry making pickup trucks. This is not a country unable to produce its own SMG's if it wishes to do so.
Clearly we need a Ruralia country profile, complete with demographics, economic analysis, outline biographies of key personnel, lyrics of national anthem, and a list of popular national recipes.
But yes, if they have established factories capable of manufacturing motor vehicles then a burp gun is industrially not a problem if they have someone able to design one.
As for the requirements - any open bolt MP18 derivative will work well enough. Add 2-3kg of pig iron below the receiver to make it so heavy it won’t rock as the bolt moves forward on the first shot. Buy some hacksaws to navalize the “Army model”. Job jobbed.
But yes, if they have established factories capable of manufacturing motor vehicles then a burp gun is industrially not a problem if they have someone able to design one.
As for the requirements - any open bolt MP18 derivative will work well enough. Add 2-3kg of pig iron below the receiver to make it so heavy it won’t rock as the bolt moves forward on the first shot. Buy some hacksaws to navalize the “Army model”. Job jobbed.
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A blowback system is the simplest and cheapest form of action in an SMG and 9x25 is around the practical limit to be contained readily by a blow back system. As soon as you add something to retard the blowback you lose the cheapness and simplicity. Even if BSA did claim they could make Kiralys for £5 each. A side magazine is a blessing when you want to lie down behind cover. I mean really want to be behind the cover. A bottom 30 round magazine pokes you way up high.
The problem is how much hindsight or luck we can use?
With hindsight we can ask get a good double stack mag by ripping off (or licensing) the automatic C96 versions and then adding it to a simple tube SMG (or square bent on a jig and welded, basically anything as long as its not not machined) with a simple fixed firing pin MP18 bolt, the problem is we than ask if we can move large part of the the mass forward of the bolt face to save length of receiver and therefore none reciprocating weight and get into a slippery slope towards something world beating......
marathag
Banned
Years ago the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. realized that the American public would soon demand something more rapid and up to-date than the hand-operated repeaters, and accordingly brought out their .22 caliber rifle of this type. This arm was so well liked that two years later they placed on the market the Model 1905 rifle, in .32 and .35 calibers, and this in turn was followed by the models of 1907 and 1910.
In principle, the Winchester self-loaders are the simplest of all automatics. It can hardly be said that they are operated by recoil, for they are really operated by gas pressure. The Remington is the only recoil-operated repeater. The action of the Winchester is forced open by gas pressure, and closed by means of a spring, the operation requiring only a fraction of a second, and no attention or thought from the shooter.
The Models 1905, 1907 and 1910 all work on the same principle, and there is scarcely any difference whatever in the action of these three models. We show herewith the Model 1910, open and closed, and a description of the action of this rifle will suffice for all three models.
Without a description, the illustrations showing the action of the Model 1910 rifle could scarcely be understood, as they do not show the connection between the bolt-head and inertia weight (heavy forward portion of bolt). It should be understood that the part containing the firing-pin is the bolt-head only and not the complete bolt. For purpose of explanation the bolt may be considered as being made up of three parts, although it is all in one. These three parts are the bolt-head, which contains the firing-pin and extractor; the inertia weight, in the fore-end of the arm, and the two connecting-bars, connecting these two parts. These bars do not show in the illustrations, but they lie on opposite sides of the magazine, and move in grooves in the receiver. This makes a very heavy bolt, and this is necessary in order to give it the necessary inertia (reluctance, or hesitancy to move), for it is not locked in any way against the force of the explosion except by this inertia, and the pressure of the coiled bolt-spring in the fore-end. It is this inertia and the pressure of this bolt-spring that keeps the action from opening before the bullet has left the barrel.
The magazine of the self-loader is of the single column box type and is readily detachable. As in all magazines of this kind the cartridges lie one on top of the other; are forced upward by a spring; and are prevented from escaping at the top by the overhanging edges of the magazine walls, which, however, are springy and allow the top cartridge only to emerge under pressure of the forward moving bolt. The cartridge being round, in cross section under pressure of the magazine spring, presents a small portion of its top above the magazine when the bolt is in its rearward position; the forward moving bolt catches this cartridge and pushes it forward, and the overhanging sides of the magazine yield and allow this cartridge to escape and go forward into the chamber under pressure of the bolt.
As mentioned before, the bolt is forced to the rear by the pressure of the expanding powder gas from the fired cartridge, this action ejecting the empty shell, cocking the hammer, and compressing the bolt-spring. This bolt-spring forces the bolt forward again as soon as the empty shell is clear of the gun, the closing action carrying the loaded cartridge into the barrel, and leaving the arm ready for firing. This is the simplest form of automatic action, and it will be seen that it will not allow of variously loaded cartridges.
With factory loaded cartridges the rifle is as safe as any firearm made, and is very rapid, convenient, and generally efficient.
The bolt-spring is placed on the bolt guide rod in the fore-end. This rod acts both as a bolt guide and a bolt-spring guide.
The complete operation of the rifle is as follows: The magazine is removed by pressing inward on the magazine-lock on the underside of the receiver and at the top of the magazine, when the magazine may be with drawn from the gun. The cartridges are then placed in the magazine to its full capacity, pressing them inward and backward, under the overhanging sides at the back, bullet end forward. When the magazine is fully charged it is pushed upward into its place in the rifle. The action is then thrown open by pulling back on the operating sleeve at the end of the fore-arm. It closes automatically when the operating sleeve is released, leaving the rifle loaded and cocked. The trigger may be locked so that the gun may be carried in this condition with perfect safety. The trigger-lock is located in the trigger-guard, forward of the trigger.
The small lever shown at the base of the hammer and above the trigger-lock is a timing lever, and its work is to block the trigger until the action is closed.
All of these rifles are of the "take-down" style, yet the barrel is firmly screwed into the receiver and remains there, thus leaving this part as strong as in an arm of the regular pattern that does not take down. This point is accomplished by making the receiver separate from the trigger guard, the latter being attached to the butt-stock and the receiver remaining with the barrel. The two parts are held together by a take-down screw, which is located at the same place as the hammer in a hammer rifle. By removing this thumbscrew the gun may be taken down for cleaning and packing in a case. When separated the bolt and its parts remain in the receiver and the other parts are attached to the guard. This completes the description of the action and as before said, the actions of all of them are the same, so this description applies to the Models 1905, 1907 and 1910.
From a period magazine.
Blowback but with the majority of the weight ahead of the bolt, rather than the bolt itself
Winchester 401 Self Loading is a bit more energetic than 9x25mm
401 Win SL, or 10.3X38mm
| 200 gr (13 g) | 2,141 ft/s (653 m/s) | 2,037 ft⋅lbf (2,762 J) |
| 128 gr | 1,368 fps | 527 ft⋅lbf (715J) |
Dear Marathag,
You brought up an excellent point.
You only need a short bolt head if the guide rods and recoil springs extend forward of the chamber.
I was thinking about a Sterling style barrel with a couple of extra holes in the chamber-end “bulkhead.” Those holes allow guide rods to slide through and attach to recoil springs that slide inside the forward grip.
You can also install a non-reciprocating cocking handle by having it push on the front of the bolt.
You brought up an excellent point.
You only need a short bolt head if the guide rods and recoil springs extend forward of the chamber.
I was thinking about a Sterling style barrel with a couple of extra holes in the chamber-end “bulkhead.” Those holes allow guide rods to slide through and attach to recoil springs that slide inside the forward grip.
You can also install a non-reciprocating cocking handle by having it push on the front of the bolt.
SwampTiger
Banned
The Winchester 1910 was heavy because of the heavy weight in the forearm. The foregrip was also fragile due to thin wood. The French prefered the 1907 with the 8.9x35SR/.351 WSL because it was less bulky and at least as effective against human targets at short range. Just as easy to use the basic 9x25 case core lengthened to the desired capacity, sort of a 5.56 shortened.
However, the basic idea was there well before the Sa. 23 of 1948. The 1907/1910 design required far too much machine work and a forged receiver. Nothing a decent machinist and engineer couldn't overcome. Put the bolt and attached cylindrical weight within a simple tube, add barrel and trigger group, instant SMG/Auto Carbine. Stock can be wood or metal.
However, the basic idea was there well before the Sa. 23 of 1948. The 1907/1910 design required far too much machine work and a forged receiver. Nothing a decent machinist and engineer couldn't overcome. Put the bolt and attached cylindrical weight within a simple tube, add barrel and trigger group, instant SMG/Auto Carbine. Stock can be wood or metal.
That’s why the Winchester 1910 has a bolt assembly which weighs as much as a loaded Colt 1911. I can only imagine the hilarity that would generate in an open-bolt subgun.
[QUOTE="marathag, post: 20113558, member:
In 1930, most Romanian Provinces were at least 73% Rural in population. Don't see why Ruralia wouldn't be similar
[/QUOTE]
Clue's in the name
:-D
In 1930, most Romanian Provinces were at least 73% Rural in population. Don't see why Ruralia wouldn't be similar
[/QUOTE]
Clue's in the name
:-D
There aren't really any cheap SMGs on the market in this period, and small, poor nations often had significant limitations on the hard currency they had available to spend on forign imports.