Poll: Best religion for Medieval Lithuania to adopt

Best religion for Lithuania to adopt

  • Catholicism from Poland

    Votes: 36 18.9%
  • Catholicism from the Knights

    Votes: 15 7.9%
  • Orthodoxy

    Votes: 71 37.4%
  • Islam

    Votes: 24 12.6%
  • Judaism

    Votes: 15 7.9%
  • Remain pagan

    Votes: 28 14.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    190
Ultimately OTL baptism from Poland ended badly, but from 1386 perspective what happened later IOTL was far from predetermined, if these events were avoided:
-death of John Albert in 1501, which caused Alexander to abandon his allies during war with Moscow and run for Polish throne.
-end of Jagiellon Dynasty in 1572
Then Lithuania could keep balance between being either squeezed between hostile Poland and Muscovy and merged with Poland into one state after 1569.
 
What an interesting idea for a thread. Given that Lithuania converted to Catholicism in 1387, I'm going to assume that the conversion happens sometime around that date.

Since this is alternative history, I will ignore Catholicism. That leaves Orthodoxy or Islam as the main What If possibilities. I don't see remaining pagan as an option.

Orthodoxy is interesting, it already has a presence and it differentiates Lithuania from its rivals to the west. It also aligns the country with Moscow and the population of Ruthenia. However, a look at a map reveals how weak the Orthodox position is in this period. Bulgaria, Serbia and the Byzantine Empire have been conquered by the Ottomans. Moscow is still tiny and Russia is disunited. It must have seemed at the time as if God had deserted the Orthodox, or that the religion was weak.

1400.jpg


By contrast, Islam looks impressive as an option. The mighty Ottoman Empire is unquestionably the most dynamic power of the age and has replaced the old Byzantine Empire. Its forces are successful in battle and no other state has been able to stop them. The god of the Muslims clearly gives his people a decisive military advantage in battle. The Ghazi warriors are expanding Muslim territory rapidly, while the Golden Horde holds the lands north of the Black Sea.

Conversion to Islam offers the prospect of powerful allies, aligning Lithuania with a rising power and fantastic trading links, as well as a wealth of advanced civilisation and culture.

The main disadvantage is that there isn't much local Islamic population so the culture will need to be imported somehow. But if contact can be made with the Ottomans it's entirely possible, just like the king of Kiev imported Orthodoxy from Byzantium several centuries earlier.

With help from the Golden Horde and the Ottoman Empire, Islamic Lithuania could be a force to be reckoned with, dividing up huge areas and possibly changing the whole history of what later became Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, and the whole Eastern European region!
 
By converting to Islam the country would have massive problems with Teutons, Poles and Russians on all sides, hardly an impressive option, it's far behind the better 2, IE Catholicism and Orthodoxy for good reasons, considering Lithuania's subjects, enemies, actually useful allies and general influence.
 
What about very early conversion to Catholicism "through" the HRE/Knights? Basically Lithuania converts in the early 13th century and during the Northern Crusades participates with the Knights and conquers Prussia? This could mean a Baltic oriented Lithuania under HRE influence, with future expansion possibilities towards Poland, Estonia and Belarus.
 
Personally, I suspect Orthodox Christianity would be the better pick.

Well, it could be better in the terms of the earlier creation of the unified Russian-Lithuanian state (there were numerous dynastic marriages so the ethnic identity of the rulers would not matter), which would just by the virtue of its size be one of the greatest regional powers (the GH being the second one).


However, I think it is wrong to dismiss Islam. The Golden Horde and the Ottoman Empire are strong in this period.

Though I think to get a Muslim Lithuania, you'd need Lithuania to hold out as a pagan power for another generation. Converting to Islam only really starts to make sense a bit later on from the OTL date Lithuania converted, when the Ottomans are crashing through the Balkans like a cannonball.

In Islamization scenario Lithuania does not have to wait until the Ottomans arrive into the region. The Golden Horde had been converted into Islam during the reign of Khan Uzbeg (Öz Beg) - 1313–1341. Territory the Golden Horde controlled at that time bordered Lithuania and after Öz Beg's army killed Lev II and his brother Andrey (co-kings of Galicia-Volhynia, and last of the Rurikid Dynasty) in 1323, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland had access to control over Galicia-Volhynia. The Lithuanians defeated the Rus' boyars and occupied Kiev and its surrounding areas. In 1337, the joint Russian and Horde army penetrated to Lublin. In 1340 Uzbeg sent an army against Casimir III but it was defeated at Vistula.

220px-Golden_Horde_Uzbek.png


So, if we assume that Uzbeg is ready to support Lithuanians vs. Poles in their fight for control of Galicia-Volhynia then Islamization of Lithuania (or rather of its pagan territories, most of the rest remain Orthodox) may make a political sense. Taking into an account that during this period there were no noticeable religious tensions between the Islamic Horde and its Orthodox Russian subjects, the schema could work: from the Orthodox point of view the Muslim rulers who did not interfere into the religious affairs of the Orthodox subjects had been much better than the Catholics who would and did try to push a conversion.




Alternatively, not Timur the Lame would probably make Islam an attractive choice for Lithuania, since the Ottomans were wrecked by Timur (set back by a generation or more) and if memory serves, the Golden Horde were also.

Memory serves you well but Timur, even during his raid on the Golden Horde was too far (geographically), too late and for too short period of time to provide any meaningful stimulus. If anything, destruction of the Golden Horde removed such a stimulus making it too weak.

Lithuania, as part of a triad of Islamic powers with the Golden Horde and the Ottomans would be interesting.

"Interesting" for its neighbors, most definitely. As in "let you live in the interesting times". :teary: Among other things, it would mean that the old raiding and slave trading business will be kept alive at least for a near future.

I think this is the real problem with Lithuania aligning with the Knights, I just can't see the knights behaving themselves.

Which somewhat assumes that Lithuanians did "behave" themselves and were innocent victims of their neighbors' aggression. :winkytongue: AFAIK, this was not (given a slightest opportunity) the case: raiding the neighbors was their routine business. To quote from Adam Mickiewicz (hopefully, nobody is going to accuse him in being anti-Lithuanian ;)):

Doughty Budrys the old, Lithuanian bold,
He has summoned his lusty sons three.
"Your chargers stand idle, now saddle and bridle
And out with your broadswords," quoth he.

"For with trumpets' loud braying in Wilno they're saying
That our crmies set forth to three goals;
Gallant Olgierd takes Russia and Kiejstut takes Prussia
And Scirgiell - our neighbours the Poles, :winkytongue:


I mean, the writing was already on the wall for the knight's racket when Lithuania converted, but they didn't change course until the Poles and Lithuanians crushed them.

The "knight's racket" was a rather complicated thing which could not be narrowed down to a single item like offending their neighbors. Order's history was not just a history of the raids or conquests but also a history of turning a wild area into the most economically advanced area of the region. They managed to create an economically viable state which, unfortunately for them, suffered from the internal conflicts between the Order itself and the "estates" (nobility and the towns) which were subordinate to the Order and which wanted more "liberties" for themselves (and as a result, looked for Poland as a place where they could get them).

EDIT: Jewish Lithuania is, of course, quite an interesting idea!

But completely unrealistic. :teary:
 
My votes will go for Orthodoxy. Now becoming Catholic by the Poles is almost ideal if it weren't for losing authority. But Orthodox Lithuania will offer more challenge in Russia vs Muscovy and the Golden Horde. Especially when Tatar influence in Russia starts to decline.

Instead of Smolensk, the Lithuanians might have their most Eastern town... Kazan? Who knows...

Islam is only ideal if the Russians had converted to Islam or the Golden Horde is much more influental in Russia and have more power. Otherwise it will be an Islamic island in a stormy Christian Sea. The Ottomans won't change that.

Judaism looks really interesting but the chance of survival is as low as an Islamic Saxony in the 15th century.

Paganism won't work. It is just too weak to challenge the missionary activity of Christians. Organised religion works much better.
 
Orthodoxy was already making significant (and peaceful, I should add) inroads into Lithuania, and it really isn't until PLC that it's completely stomped out.

Everything else except some kind of codifying and standardizing of Lithuanian Paganism will just lead to it dying out.
 
Hm. In that case, I'll go with the greatest happiness of the greatest number and the least suffering, all for the population of the grand duchy of Lithuania of 1385/6 and their immediate first-generation offspring. For them, a conversion to Orthodoxy would likely have meant better Integration and participation for the Ruthenian nobility, for the existing Orthodox clergy it means recognition and upward Mobility in the proselytisation in the West. For the commoners, the differences are probably not quite noticeable. Commerce, legal practices etc. were not immediately affected, I'd say. (i don't know when Vilnius turned into a real City and attracted Catholic foreigners...)
 
My votes will go for Orthodoxy. Now becoming Catholic by the Poles is almost ideal if it weren't for losing authority. But Orthodox Lithuania will offer more challenge in Russia vs Muscovy and the Golden Horde. Especially when Tatar influence in Russia starts to decline.

The Orthodox Lithuania would have a very good chance to end up as THE "Russian state" governed by the rulers of Lithuanian-Russian descent (numerous intermarriages): Witold was Protector of the Great Princedom of Moscow, Protector of Moscow, and ruler of Smolensk. In OTL, well before the time of Ivan IV the ranks of the top Russian aristocracy had been packed with the families of Lithuanian descent.
 
The Orthodox Lithuania would have a very good chance to end up as THE "Russian state" governed by the rulers of Lithuanian-Russian descent (numerous intermarriages): Witold was Protector of the Great Princedom of Moscow, Protector of Moscow, and ruler of Smolensk. In OTL, well before the time of Ivan IV the ranks of the top Russian aristocracy had been packed with the families of Lithuanian descent.

Fair enough...
 
Taborites of course
Yes, or an anarchic mixture of various groups.

Although if we really want the gediminid dynasty to convert, we'd have to remain less anti-hierarchical. Some Calixtian Lithuanian national umbrella church, with various Bohemian-inspired splinter groups alternating between establishing communes among the good Christian population and going on joyful Rides against their enemies (the Order, the Poles, novgorod, pskov...?!
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Yes, or an anarchic mixture of various groups.

Although if we really want the gediminid dynasty to convert, we'd have to remain less anti-hierarchical. Some Calixtian Lithuanian national umbrella church, with various Bohemian-inspired splinter groups alternating between establishing communes among the good Christian population and going on joyful Rides against their enemies (the Order, the Poles, novgorod, pskov...?!
You can also go with the Council of Basel and anti-pope Felix V ...
 
In the 1980s I saw a comic book in Belarusian - "the king from Witebsk" - it was about Jogaila ...
Jogaila's father Algirdas was the Duke of Vitebsk before assuming the throne, and even has a statue over there, so it kinda makes sense (Jogaila was likely born in Vilnius, though, not Vitebsk)
 
Which somewhat assumes that Lithuanians did "behave" themselves and were innocent victims of their neighbors' aggression. :winkytongue: AFAIK, this was not (given a slightest opportunity) the case: raiding the neighbors was their routine business. To quote from Adam Mickiewicz (hopefully, nobody is going to accuse him in being anti-Lithuanian ;)):

And I'd thought they had built a massive empire through spreading love and giving out hugs. ;)

I've yet to see any group that has built an empire and been remotely innocent at the end.

Memory serves you well but Timur, even during his raid on the Golden Horde was too far (geographically), too late and for too short period of time to provide any meaningful stimulus. If anything, destruction of the Golden Horde removed such a stimulus making it too weak.

Oh ya. Timur is definitely something that makes Europe more Christian, not less.

By converting to Islam the country would have massive problems with Teutons, Poles and Russians on all sides, hardly an impressive option, it's far behind the better 2, IE Catholicism and Orthodoxy for good reasons, considering Lithuania's subjects, enemies, actually useful allies and general influence.

The Russians were GH vassals and Lithuania already had trouble with the Poles and Teutons. Going muslim doesn't help much with their 1387 situation, but it helps some, since Lithuania also faced pressure from the GH and it doesn't make any of the existing problems worse.

Islam is only ideal if the Russians had converted to Islam or the Golden Horde is much more influental in Russia and have more power. Otherwise it will be an Islamic island in a stormy Christian Sea. The Ottomans won't change that.

In this period, the East Slavs are still pretty weak and the Muslim groups in what's now European Russia and Ukraine are much stronger, though they're on the decline. I think Lithuania is strong enough and positioned well enough that it could completely swing how Russia and the Balkans evolve.

I think the issue is more that any argument that you could make for Islam is stronger for Catholicism at the decision time.

fasquardon
 
And I'd thought they had built a massive empire through spreading love and giving out hugs. ;)

I've yet to see any group that has built an empire and been remotely innocent at the end.

Yes, of course they did. And so did the Muscovite state (just read the "appropriate" historians). And as for the 2nd statement, this was the foundation of the whole Soviet history. You know, the brotherly nations eager to get together or <whoever> looking for protection against the Greater Evil, etc.
:angel:


Oh ya. Timur is definitely something that makes Europe more Christian, not less.

Yeah, genius of creating a havoc.



The Russians were GH vassals and Lithuania already had trouble with the Poles and Teutons. Going muslim doesn't help much with their 1387 situation, but it helps some, since Lithuania also faced pressure from the GH and it doesn't make any of the existing problems worse.

Alliance with the GH and later with the Ottomans could not make things worse. And the schema could result in a changing dynamic of the Muscovite state vs. the GH.



In this period, the East Slavs are still pretty weak and the Muslim groups in what's now European Russia and Ukraine are much stronger, though they're on the decline. I think Lithuania is strong enough and positioned well enough that it could completely swing how Russia and the Balkans evolve.

I think the issue is more that any argument that you could make for Islam is stronger for Catholicism at the decision time.

Quite possible. From the Russian perspective Islam (as long as it is not enforced upon them) was better than Catholicism. In OTL the growing Muscovite/Russian state was incorporating the growing numbers of Muslims and it worked fine while the Catholics were unquestionably Bad Guys.
 

ninel

Banned
Meh ... cepelinai could be an aquired taste I suppose.
Acquired taste? They’re just big potato dumplings filled with meat. One of the most basic dishes of the Eastern European cuisine.

Damn, now I want some cepelinai… but unfortunately only people from the historical Lithuania know how to make them.
 
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