WI - Impact of Failed Muslim Invasions of India

longsword14

Banned
If you say Muslims invasions is bad for India, you must give reasons why it is bad _compared to non-Muslims invasions
:rolleyes:
Point out one instance where I have written that any invasion is a net positive.
The general trend in "recent" Indian history had been of Islamic invasions, so I can only write about its impact.
As a whole, those invasions were a great loss for India.
In another post above, I wrote that I despise the other side of the coin even more because they are considered as serious works outside India, where as nationalist writings are so ineptly done that any sane person would laugh it off.
You know, the usual buzz words :liberal, tolerant, syncretic etc. are used as support.

Native sources, i.e. from the people of the land, are few and in between, or invariably tend to have a certain tilt to them.
Forget cherry-picking, the details are sometimes so sparse that you are not left with much to pick through.

Massed invasions always lead to great disruption, pillage and deaths. The overlord-ship of an entire layer of foreign class, along with the decline of local centers of trade, were not to the natives' benefit.

I agree completely that culture in itself is not something that can be conserved, which is why I find it odd that many of those who also agree with this statement keep on insisting that the invasions somehow bringing in a different "culture" were somehow worth anything at all.

I find @Indicus' , a self confessed Mughalophile,view to be always skewed. British rule is routinely gone over time after time, while the Mughal administration's details are always glossed over.
I suppose racism and imperialism are just hot topics compared to others.
 
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longsword14

Banned
did have a more benevolent empire than the British
Even that is debatable. India's peasantry was not in a very good shape during Mughal times either.
The method of acquiring taxation from land varied a lot, and its superiority is in itself not seen.
 
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I am re-posting this from a related thread in response to this 'liberal Sultanate' spiel that's being tossed out here.
The tolerant Islam thing is actually sort of a myth. Rulers like Akbar are famed for their tolerance precisely because it was such a rare occurrence. The Bahmanids and the various Delhi Sultanates were all brutally intolerant ( Alauddin Khalji himself decreed that crushing the Hindu peasantry with taxes was the correct way to keep the kafir down). The Persianised court was a result of this exclusion of local Hindu people; power and prosperity to non-muslims was obviously threatening. The vast majority of muslim rulers in India acted more like military occupations and the governance was decidedly predatory in nature. This is why the region was so dynamic when it came to power struggles, one dynasty just had to win on the battlefield and get the loyalty of the court to rule the Indo-Gangetic plain. These rulers stick out from the rest because tolerance and constructiveness was exceptional and rare while brutality was so common as to be unremarkable.
 
If you say Muslims invasions is bad for India, you must give reasons why it is bad _compared to non-Muslims invasions_ not by comparison to never invaded India.

The rule under the infamously corrupt East India Trading Company was arguably an improvement over non-Akbar rulers for the rank and file Hindu peasants and the land owning aristocracy. And the British Raj was more tolerant and hands off, while keeping law and order so...
 
The rule under the infamously corrupt East India Trading Company was arguably an improvement over non-Akbar rulers for the rank and file Hindu peasants and the land owning aristocracy. And the British Raj was more tolerant and hands off, while keeping law and order so...
I imagine though the economic oppression and the divide and rule strategy of the Brits would be a counterweight to any laissez-faire strategy they had about the local religions.
 
No, not really. If you talk about economic oppression, what matters less is the government's take. What matters more is how many pounds your peasant can earn a year as take home pay (or equivalent in harvests). These went UP during British rule on average (yes there were down years, but usually those were poor harvest years anyways). You can talk about economic oppression and a pie, but in economics, efficiency and trade can make the pie bigger. So there can't really be the case that there was economic oppression as a whole (yes, there were plenty of individual cases of British douchbaggery)
 

longsword14

Banned
the divide and rule strategy of the Brits
Implies that Indians had no agency at all.
Both the communities were quite happy to find their place where ever they could to benefit themselves. The British, of course, use methods to further their own ends.
But British historiography is know in great detail: revenues, accounts of diplomatic actions, campaigns and policies, it is what came before that is ambigous.
 
No, not really. If you talk about economic oppression, what matters less is the government's take. What matters more is how many pounds your peasant can earn a year as take home pay (or equivalent in harvests). These went UP during British rule on average (yes there were down years, but usually those were poor harvest years anyways). You can talk about economic oppression and a pie, but in economics, efficiency and trade can make the pie bigger. So there can't really be the case that there was economic oppression as a whole (yes, there were plenty of individual cases of British douchbaggery)

May I see a source for these assertions?

I'll give you some countering the claim that there wasn't "economic oppression". Here's a post with some sources by @My Daichingtala:

There is academic consensus that while India's economy would probably have suffered significantly before the sheer industrial might of the West even without colonization, colonial rule made India particularly worse off. I'll quote an earlier post of mine, adding some emphasis on the way to highlight how the "normal" economic shock of industrial-level imports was exacerbated by the British:

On how British rule "knocked the stuffing out" of India's economy and turned artisans and merchants into peasants, see "Progress and Problems: South Asian Economic and Social History c.1720-1860," p. 79-80:
[E]specially between the 1820s and 1850s, British rule restructured South Asian society and economy in ways meant to serve its own interests and which had the consequence of all but permanently precluding the transformation to modern industrialization. It was in this era that many of the social and economic features, understood by later generations to be the products of changeless tradition and taken by them to constitute the barriers of 'backwardness' to development, can be seen to have crystallized. Recent research has given particular attention to the nature and implications of the long-term price depression which descended on the South Asian economy toward the ends of the 1820s [...] In South Asia, it was exacerbated by three factors which can be directly associated with colonial rule: the export of large quantities of specie to service the China trade; the dismantling of many indigenous court, military, and religious centres, which had provided the main foci of internal demand, and the impact of Lancashire on South Asia's previous overseas and luxury textile markets. The depression, and these particular causes of it, can be seen as having knocked the stuffing out of a large part of South Asia's 'ancien regime' mercantile capitalist economy. Moreover, much of what was left was now taken out of the hands of the indigenous capitalists and passed, via the monopoly powers of the state, to British ones. [...] The principal process of economic change during these years has been described as "peasantization." Displaced soldiers, courtisans, priests and artisans found their way onto the land, which was fast becoming the only available base of subsistence.​

On the impact of the British on South India's textile economy, "South India 1770-1840: The Colonial Transition", page 507-509, addressing your point directly:
While 'local' resistance may have kept Utilitarianism and Evangelicalism at arm's length, it could not do the same for the impact of Britain's Industrial Revolution. South India's overseas textile markets collapsed, staunching vital inflows of specie and precipitating a general price collapse which was to last for a generation. [...] Markets atrophied and a long depression sapped commercial vitality. By the time that the depression lifted, in the 1850s, what once had been one of the early modern world's great commercial economies had been turned into a 'backward' agricultural dependency.

How far the fact that South India was under colonial/Company rule directly contributed to this outcome remains a debatable question. The global impact of the British Industrial Revolution - which drastically reduced commodity prices - affected most of the world similarly, whether it was 'colonized' or not. While what might have happened had the supposedly 'modernizing' Mysore state of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan defeated the English in 1782 remains one of the teasing counterfactuals of Southern history, it is difficult to think that it could have made much difference by the late nineteeenth century. A 'reactively-modernizing' Mysore must surely have gone the same way as Mohammed Ali's Egypt and the China of the [Tongzhi] Restoration before the West's industrial power.

But in two ways, perhaps, it was important for South India and the wider world that an archaic form of colonial/Company rule was already established before British industrial supremacy became manifest
- and ways which re-open questions on the transition(s) of the eighteenth century. In the first place, it guaranteed that the depression would be deep and prolonged and that many of its possible outcomes would be foreclosed. The Company's 'victory' did not only eliminate forces of competition in the market but, as Christopher Bayly argued, also forces of internal consumption and demand. As princely armies were cut back and elite supply trimmed, domestic markets tended to contract - promoting de-urbanization and de-industrialization. Further problems were created by the tendency of the Company to export specie to China and deplete an already constricted money supply.

Added to this, both the mercantilist and the historicist bases of the Company state combined to create a situation in which 'profit' would be sought much more readily through the pursuit of 'rent' than through the expansion of production. With the revenue system dominating the economy, energies were turned away from productive investment (which might attract penal taxation).
On how the Industrial Revolution made India a "colonial economy" which the EIC did nothing to stop, A Concise History of Modern India, page 76-77
By 1815 Indian textiles and other artisanal commodities could no longer compete with Britain, or on the world market, with British machine-made goods. Within a few years British textiles began to penetrate the Indian market, initiating the development of a classically 'colonial' economy, importing manufactures and exporting raw materials, that was to last for a century, until the 1920s. [...] Although new opportunities for commercial agriculture brought advantage for some, the loss of overseas markets was devastating, especially for skilled weavers in the great weaving centres, such as Dacca and Murshidabad. In the countryside weavers managed to survive by taking advantage of cheap imported thread, but those who had relied on hand spinning for subsistence were often driven back into agriculture. At the same time the rapid decline in the number of Indian courts, lavish spenders on luxury goods and armaments, reduced demand for many commodities. The disbandment of these courts also forced on to the land large numbers of former militiamen and retainers, which in turn further adversely affected artisanal production.

[...] The East India Company during the early decades of the nineteenth century did little to set India on a path of economic growth [...] This 'drain' of wealth was complemented by the Company's withdrawal of funds to cover what it called the 'Home Charges,' including pensions, debt service, and the cost of maintaining the Company's offices. [...] The situation was exacerbated by the Company's forces of deflationary finance, as it sought to trim its budget deficits. Throughout, the heaviest burden India had to bear was that of the land revenue demand. Essential to the support of the army and the administration, these payments, rigorously collected in cash, lay at the heart of the British impact upon the Indian countryside.
From India: A History, which also supports the theory that British rule drained India's economy, page 390-391:
Yet such was this superstructure of agents and rentiers, and such the extractive culture of the revenue system, that profits rarely found their way back into production other than as advances on the next crop. The actual cultivator thus became, if anything, even more indebted. Commercialisation only "led to differentiation without genuine growth." In effect India’s rural economy was already experiencing the down-side of plantation economics, in terms of labour exploitation, without the usual up-side of capital investment. "The point is not that so many peasants suffered (they would have suffered under capitalist modernisation, too) but that they suffered for nothing."

The British preferred to emphasise their investment in infrastructure, especially railways and irrigation works ("trains and drains"). They also pointed to the country’s generally favourable balance of payments. Critics, though, were less impressed by India’s theoretical prosperity and more exercised by Indians' actual poverty. As early as 1866 Dadabhai Naoroji, the future "Grand Old Man of Congress," had begun to wonder whom the trains actually benefited and whither the drains actually led. In fact he developed a "drain theory" which, with ramifications provided by his successors, would run like an undercurrent throughout the nationalist debate.

This ‘drain theory’ maintained that India’s surplus, instead of being invested so as to create the modernised and industrialised economy needed to support a growing population, was being drained away by the ruling power. The main drain emptied in London with a flood of what the government called "home charges." These included salaries and pensions for government and army officers, military purchases, India Office overheads, debt servicing, and the guaranteed interest payable to private investors in India’s railways. Calculated in sterling at an increasingly unfavourable rate of exchange, they came to something like a quarter of the government of India’s total revenue. With much of what remained being squandered on administrative extravagances and military adventures in Burma and Afghanistan, it was not surprising that Indians lived in such abject poverty or that famines were so frequent.

The theory also included an analysis of how the drain actually worked. The Secretary of State for India in London obtained sterling to meet his ‘home charges’ by selling bills of exchange to British importers. Presented in India, these bills could be converted into rupees out of government revenues and so used for the purchase of Indian produce. The private sector therefore played an important part in the drain since its exports from India constituted the drain’s flow. By the same token the export surplus was of little economic benefit to Indians; and worse still, since they consisted mostly of raw materials, exports gave no encouragement to India’s industrialisation. The classic case was cotton. In the days of the Company, British purchases had been mainly of finished piece-goods. Latterly, with Lancashire’s mills underselling India’s handloom weavers, British purchases switched to raw cotton and yarn. Now, when new and often Indian-owned mills in Bombay were at last in a position to compete, they were repeatedly frustrated by tariff policies which favoured British imports and by regulations which handicapped Indian production.

India’s embryonic industries – principally jute, cotton, coir and coal – needed protection; the British insisted on free trade. Their laissez faire attitudes extended even to the land revenue, where rising prices meant that fixed revenue assessments actually became somewhat less onerous during the latter half of the nineteenth century. But rather than adjust such assessments the government now preferred to explore other sources of revenue, like introducing an income tax.​

Implies that Indians had no agency at all.
Both the communities were quite happy to find their place where ever they could to benefit themselves. The British, of course, use methods to further their own ends.
But British historiography is know in great detail: revenues, accounts of diplomatic actions, campaigns and policies, it is what came before that is ambigous.

The British using divide and rule means that Indians had no agency? What the hell are you talking about?
 

longsword14

Banned
The British using divide and rule means that Indians had no agency?
That divisions already existed, the British used it when it suited them. People were happy enough to go along imperial schemes as it benefited their caste and community. Did they have no agency of their own?
Talking about 'dividing' Indians is meaningful only if the people in question considered the idea of India worth something; actions speak otherwise (The British rule India because the latter allow/want them to?).
Surely they could have kept their ranks closed if they considered it necessary?
Like the previous history of the sub-continent did not show deep striations based on ethnicity and religion in every sphere of life, with the top often being occupied by foreigners.
 
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longsword14

Banned
I do not try to put either the BEIC or previous Indian rulers on the same judgement scale as modern nation states.
Concerted thought being given are features of a modern state; explaining faults by this basis seems wrong.
Textiles the world over were put out of business by the low costs and high volume of cloth produced in Britain, not just in India.

Far from trumpeting the BEIC as a template for future Indian authorities, all I insist on is that by the same measures being used every previous Indian ruler falls short.
 
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That divisions already existed, the British used it when it suited them. People were happy enough to go along imperial schemes as it benefited their caste and community.

Yes, that's what divide and rule generally was. The imperial power would deliberately exacerbate existing divisions to maintain their power. So what if some people "benefited" in the moment? The whites in the Americas benefited from the entrenched racism but that doesn't mean it wasn't a horrifying, terrible thing. Tutsi benefited during Belgian colonial rule. Are you going to tell me that it wasn't a horrible downside of colonial rule? Even for the people on top, the overall effect was unhealthy. The Creoles in Mexico were relatively better off compared to the Natives. This doesn't change the fact that racism is bad for people as a whole.

EDIT: I see you edited your post.

That divisions already existed, the British used it when it suited them. People were happy enough to go along imperial schemes as it benefited their caste and community. Did they have no agency of their own?
Talking about 'dividing' Indians is meaningful only if the people in question considered the idea of India worth something; actions speak otherwise (The British rule India because the latter allow/want them to?).
Surely they could have kept their ranks closed if they considered it necessary?
Like the previous history of the sub-continent did not show deep striations based on ethnicity and religion in every sphere of life, with the top often being occupied by foreigners.

I didn't say they divided "India" in the abstract. I said they used divide and conquer policies. Do you deny this?

The Indians could have magically united and kept the British out if they "really" didn't want it? Are you serious with this absurd victim blaming bullshit? Do you think that any time a group of people doesn't unite and militarily overthrow a regime, that they actually want it? yeah man, I'm sure the Iraqis totally loved Saddam. Surely they could have simply closed ranks and kicked him out if that wasn't true right?

Your last argument is "There was ethnic divisions before, therefore divide and rule doesn't matter". Why do think literally no other Indian ruler besides the British tried to partition Bengal based on religion? Do you think it's because there were no divisions between Bengali Hindus and Muslims? Of course not but the goals of the colonial state are different to those of a metropolitan state.

I do not try to put either the BEIC or previous Indian rulers on the same judgement scale as modern nation states.
Concerted thought being given are features of a modern state; explaining faults by this basis seems wrong.
Textiles the world over were put out of business by the low costs and high volume of cloth produced in Britain, not just in India.

Far from trumpeting the BEIC as a template for future Indian authorities, all I insist on is that by the same measures being used every previous Indian ruler falls short by the same measures.

I'm not trying to judge them by modern standards either. I simply dislike apologetics for intrinsically harmful features of the colonial state. For example, you use the common defense of "Britain would have put textile manufacturers out of business anyways". The sources I quoted above account for this. Textiles were put out of business in the beginning yes. However, colonial rule strangled efforts to adapt. Colonial rule has inherently different goals to metropolitan rule.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the same measures". Education? The British destroyed the Sikh education system and burned books. Why do you think they did this?
 
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longsword14

Banned
Textiles were put out of business in the beginning yes. However, colonial rule strangled efforts to adapt. Colonial rule has inherently different goals to metropolitan rule.
As soon as the Industrial Revolution took off, no amount of adoption could handle it.
I simply dislike apologetics for intrinsically harmful features of the colonial state.
Nope, simply stating that the BEIC rule was not imposed by the removal of some benevolent enlightened despot.
 
So if India's north western border is an open door, and Muslim conquest can only be avoided by ending/preventing their rule over Iran and Central Asia, that raises the question of who will be invading India in their place? Another nomadic group looking for a rich plain to build skull pyramids on? A resurgent Sassanian Persia looking to bolster its coffers in preparation for yet another apocalyptic clash with Rome? The Tibetan Empire?
 
So if India's north western border is an open door, and Muslim conquest can only be avoided by ending/preventing their rule over Iran and Central Asia, that raises the question of who will be invading India in their place? Another nomadic group looking for a rich plain to build skull pyramids on? A resurgent Sassanian Persia looking to bolster its coffers in preparation for yet another apocalyptic clash with Rome? The Tibetan Empire?

The ATL Kara-Khanid and Qara Khitai Khanates as well as the Ghurids stand out, though it is possible that other Khanates and groups would try to invade India (Oghuz, Kimek, Kipchak, etc). As for the Sassanid revivalists of the ATL Ziyarid Persian Empire, it is doubtful they would invade India unless its western and Central Asian borders are stable or in the case of (potentially weakened) polities beyond its western border preoccupied with the Crusades and sectarian conflicts.

Continued Tang Empire presence in the area would partly depend on butterflying away the An Lushan Rebellion, while the Tibetan Empire would have to avoid collapse as a result of civil war that led to the subsequent era of fragmentation.

The Mongols meanwhile are a bit of wildcard in this scenario, which Empires / Kingdoms and Cities would be the ATL Khwarazmian, Urgench, Merv and Baghdad?

Would the Mongols have even traveled west had Shah Muhammad II of Khwarazmian not incited the Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia to begin with, but rather instead targeted India? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquest_of_Khwarezmia
 
The ATL Kara-Khanid and Qara Khitai Khanates as well as the Ghurids stand out, though it is possible that other Khanates and groups would try to invade India (Oghuz, Kimek, Kipchak, etc). As for the Sassanid revivalists of the ATL Ziyarid Persian Empire, it is doubtful they would invade India unless its western and Central Asian borders are stable or in the case of (potentially weakened) polities beyond its western border preoccupied with the Crusades and sectarian conflicts.

Continued Tang Empire presence in the area would partly depend on butterflying away the An Lushan Rebellion, while the Tibetan Empire would have to avoid collapse as a result of civil war that led to the subsequent era of fragmentation.

The Mongols meanwhile are a bit of wildcard in this scenario, which Empires / Kingdoms and Cities would be the ATL Khwarazmian, Urgench, Merv and Baghdad?

Would the Mongols have even traveled west had Shah Muhammad II of Khwarazmian not incited the Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia to begin with, but rather instead targeted India? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquest_of_Khwarezmia
By the Sassanids I meant the actual Sassanids. Having them somehow crush the Arabs is an easy way to keep Islam out of Central Asia.

edit: also I recall reading in another thread that the first generation mongols (as in those from the peak of the empire) had an aversion to India's heat and humidity
 
By the Sassanids I meant the actual Sassanids. Having them somehow crush the Arabs is an easy way to keep Islam out of Central Asia.

edit: also I recall reading in another thread that the first generation mongols (as in those from the peak of the empire) had an aversion to India's heat and humidity

While easy that would entail an earlier series of PODs where the Sassanids are not involved in costly battles with the Romans / Byzantines.

Tang victory at Talas as well as a ATL Mardavij (and his successors) successfully restoring Zoroastrianism in Persia and establishing a wanked Ziyarid Persian Empire should roughly have the same effect, along with Sindh, Zunbil and Bamiyan either holding off conquest or at minimum surviving cultural / religious assimilation.
 
As a whole, those invasions were a great loss for India.

Admittedly they were, in many ways, losses, what with all of the destruction of numerous temples and of Nalanda, and native sources do demonstrate a sort of apocalyptic view of the Muslim invasions, but that's not to say they didn't hold highly positive impacts. For instance, India held a rather xenophobic view of foreigners perhaps inherited from the ancient Greeks, in which foreigners were barbarians (mlecchas). When the Muslim invaders came, while they did destroy a lot, they destroyed the view of foreigners as barbarians, and made India more open to new ideals. That did enrich India.

Whether no Muslim invasions would make India a better society is impossible to determine, as there are too many variables over so many centuries, but Muslim invasion was not a wholly negative thing, as much as Hindu nationalists like to do that. I also don't find it implausible that some early Maratha-esque confederacy conducts raids on temples and Nalanda, resulting in destruction, but that's not a given either.

I find @Indicus' , a self confessed Mughalophile,view to be always skewed.

I'm not skewed. Yes, I consider Mughal culture as well as their pseudo-Zoroastrian beliefs extremely interesting, but that doesn't somehow mean I'm skewed in their favour.

I simply find it problematic when people are convinced that they were intolerant proto-Wahhabis (this view is shockingly common among everyone except historians), when they were all essentially heretics up until the time of Shah Jahan, and even after most modern scholarship has totally discredited that view of them. Go ahead and criticize the Mughals, but criticize them for what they did instead of pulling crimes out of nothing.

Anyways, less controversially, failed Muslim invasions would drastically alter Indian food. Samosas would not exist, falooda would simply be a Persian dish, halwa would not be an Indian dish, and jalebi would not exist. What would replace all of those foods is an interesting topic to think about.
 

longsword14

Banned
When the Muslim invaders came, while they did destroy a lot, they destroyed the view of foreigners as barbarians, and made India more open to new ideals. That did enrich India.
x'D
Instead they had a low view of the natives.
I simply find it problematic when people are convinced that they were intolerant proto-Wahhabis
Eh, religious problems come in more forms than Wahhabism, which is a new catch phrase that people keep repeating.

The British for all of their oppressive ways did more for infrastructure, education and public works than all the Mughals combined. Nationalist historiography in the late 19th and early 20th century needed a myth; some got it in a Golden Hindu Age, others got it in the Mughals.
 
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