Columbus Never Returns
- Thread starter Codae
- Start date
Thande
Donor
Welcome to the board.
The effects may not be as dramatic as one might think at first glance. Columbus was sailing west following up on existing rumours of land sightings by Portuguese sailors off Africa, who had caught sight of Brazil. If he doesn't return, men will dismiss his theory of a small earth with a near Japan across the Atlantic as hogwash (which, in fact, it was) but America will still be found and explored a few years later, and possibly colonised (though more tentatively if no one thinks it's the lucrative East Indies at first).
However, importantly, this exploration and colonisation might be done by someone else, with Spain a latecomer to the table.
The effects may not be as dramatic as one might think at first glance. Columbus was sailing west following up on existing rumours of land sightings by Portuguese sailors off Africa, who had caught sight of Brazil. If he doesn't return, men will dismiss his theory of a small earth with a near Japan across the Atlantic as hogwash (which, in fact, it was) but America will still be found and explored a few years later, and possibly colonised (though more tentatively if no one thinks it's the lucrative East Indies at first).
However, importantly, this exploration and colonisation might be done by someone else, with Spain a latecomer to the table.
As in the ships wreck? Perhaps in Hispaniola where the Santa Maria ran aground, then the natives catch Columbus' men in the act of kidnapping Indians for the return trip to Spain and they get attacked with the other two ships burned?
Nevertheless, the New World would have been discovered in the near future anyway. Perhaps by the Cabots for England. Columbus would become a minor footnote in Spanish history and the conquistadors would continue focus on the Moors and the Maghreb.
Nevertheless, the New World would have been discovered in the near future anyway. Perhaps by the Cabots for England. Columbus would become a minor footnote in Spanish history and the conquistadors would continue focus on the Moors and the Maghreb.
Philip
Donor
This would likely prevent the formation of the Juggernaut that was 16th Century Spain. Perhaps then the Hapsburgs stay focused on the HRE.
I think I read somewhere that the Basques fished in the Grand Banks and even set up a few fishing stations in Newfoundland, prompting Portugal to briefly claim that island.
I wonder if that could lead to something?
As for Spain, after taking back Andalusia, the whole country was itching for more conquest. Without America, how could they channel this? An invasion of North Africa? Portugal? France? Expanding territory in Italy or the low countries?
And, this is my thousandth post! I feel proud of participating on the site this far!
I wonder if that could lead to something?
As for Spain, after taking back Andalusia, the whole country was itching for more conquest. Without America, how could they channel this? An invasion of North Africa? Portugal? France? Expanding territory in Italy or the low countries?
And, this is my thousandth post! I feel proud of participating on the site this far!
Philip
Donor
These fishermen kept their knowledge secret -- no need to give up your competitive advantage. Columbus's journey was well publicized.
They were also in dire financial straits. The gold and silver from America saved them. If they are able to continue conquest, North Africa is the likely target. Portugal was very rich at the time and had the pope in their pocket. It was not really a viable target.
The effects may not be as dramatic as one might think at first glance. Columbus was sailing west following up on existing rumours of land sightings by Portuguese sailors off Africa, who had caught sight of Brazil. If he doesn't return, men will dismiss his theory of a small earth with a near Japan across the Atlantic as hogwash (which, in fact, it was) but America will still be found and explored a few years later, and possibly colonised (though more tentatively if no one thinks it's the lucrative East Indies at first).
However, importantly, this exploration and colonisation might be done by someone else, with Spain a latecomer to the table.
And, if Portugal has a current monopoly on Asian trade to the east, once South America is discovered to be big, somebody, maybe England, will want to explore this strange new continent. Is this plausible (below)?
1500: Cabral sights Brazil, but does not land (butterflies at work here; he doesn't expect anything of particular interest here).
1501: Cabral returns to Brazil, and discovers it to be a continent. He returns to Portugal after sailing as far south as the Rio de la Plata and encountering the threat of mutiny. The English hire John Cabot, who visits South America and the Caribbean.
1502-1506: More English explorers visit the New World. They encounter the remains of Columbus's ill-fated expedition. The Portuguese are more interested in the East, however, although they do hold Brazil.
1507: The English discover Chesapeake Bay by sailing more directly west than they have been up to this point. The Treaty of Lisbon divides the New World between Portugal and England at the equator.
(Note that Peru is in the southern hemisphere, in Portuguese territory, although the English are probably going to get there first...)
This isn't really very refined, but I need to get to bed. What do you think?
However, importantly, this exploration and colonisation might be done by someone else, with Spain a latecomer to the table.
And, if Portugal has a current monopoly on Asian trade to the east, once South America is discovered to be big, somebody, maybe England, will want to explore this strange new continent. Is this plausible (below)?
1500: Cabral sights Brazil, but does not land (butterflies at work here; he doesn't expect anything of particular interest here).
1501: Cabral returns to Brazil, and discovers it to be a continent. He returns to Portugal after sailing as far south as the Rio de la Plata and encountering the threat of mutiny. The English hire John Cabot, who visits South America and the Caribbean.
1502-1506: More English explorers visit the New World. They encounter the remains of Columbus's ill-fated expedition. The Portuguese are more interested in the East, however, although they do hold Brazil.
1507: The English discover Chesapeake Bay by sailing more directly west than they have been up to this point. The Treaty of Lisbon divides the New World between Portugal and England at the equator.
(Note that Peru is in the southern hemisphere, in Portuguese territory, although the English are probably going to get there first...)
This isn't really very refined, but I need to get to bed. What do you think?
The effects may not be as dramatic as one might think at first glance. Columbus was sailing west following up on existing rumours of land sightings by Portuguese sailors off Africa, who had caught sight of Brazil. If he doesn't return, men will dismiss his theory of a small earth with a near Japan across the Atlantic as hogwash (which, in fact, it was) but America will still be found and explored a few years later, and possibly colonised (though more tentatively if no one thinks it's the lucrative East Indies at first).
However, importantly, this exploration and colonisation might be done by someone else, with Spain a latecomer to the table.
And, if Portugal has a current monopoly on Asian trade to the east, once South America is discovered to be big, somebody, maybe England, will want to explore this strange new continent. Is this plausible (below)?
1500: Cabral sights Brazil, but does not land (butterflies at work here; he doesn't expect anything of particular interest here).
1501: Cabral returns to Brazil, and discovers it to be a continent. He returns to Portugal after sailing as far south as the Rio de la Plata and encountering the threat of mutiny. The English hire John Cabot, who visits South America and the Caribbean.
1502-1506: More English explorers visit the New World. They encounter the remains of Columbus's ill-fated expedition. The Portuguese are more interested in the East, however, although they do hold Brazil.
1507: The English discover Chesapeake Bay by sailing more directly west than they have been up to this point. The Treaty of Lisbon divides the New World between Portugal and England at the equator.
(Note that Peru is in the southern hemisphere, in Portuguese territory, although the English are probably going to get there first...)
This isn't really very refined, but I need to get to bed. What do you think?
However, importantly, this exploration and colonisation might be done by someone else, with Spain a latecomer to the table.
And, if Portugal has a current monopoly on Asian trade to the east, once South America is discovered to be big, somebody, maybe England, will want to explore this strange new continent. Is this plausible (below)?
1500: Cabral sights Brazil, but does not land (butterflies at work here; he doesn't expect anything of particular interest here).
1501: Cabral returns to Brazil, and discovers it to be a continent. He returns to Portugal after sailing as far south as the Rio de la Plata and encountering the threat of mutiny. The English hire John Cabot, who visits South America and the Caribbean.
1502-1506: More English explorers visit the New World. They encounter the remains of Columbus's ill-fated expedition. The Portuguese are more interested in the East, however, although they do hold Brazil.
1507: The English discover Chesapeake Bay by sailing more directly west than they have been up to this point. The Treaty of Lisbon divides the New World between Portugal and England at the equator.
(Note that Peru is in the southern hemisphere, in Portuguese territory, although the English are probably going to get there first...)
This isn't really very refined, but I need to get to bed. What do you think?
Philip
Donor
IIRC, Henry VII declined to fund the Columbus expedition. With Columbus's failure and the lack of Columbus's wild stories of wealth, I don't know if Henry VII would get on board.
Also, I don't think the Portuguese are going to be too willing to share any info from Cabral's journeys. They were quite secretive.
False. Castile was rich in raw materials (cereals and wool above all) and Aragon was a trading empire in the Mediterranean. The combination of both made Spain a very rich and powerful state by late Medieval standards. What the American riches did was turning the street's wealthy neighbor into Citizen Kane.
AHF said:
Between 1495 and Ferdinand's death in 1516 Spain had occupied Melilla, Wahran, Bougie, Tunis, Tripoli and Naples. Algiers was vasalized, and Genoa and other Italian states were on her sphere of influence. Then Charles I came and swithched the attention from the Mediterranean to Central Europe, letting the Turks to grab the Maghreb. He would probably do the same in any other TL, I think.
Colonization would probably be more gradual than in OTL. The Portuguese will spread diseases which will travel outwards mostly along the coast and the Amazon. The Aztecs will probably have expanded quite a bit by the time the plagues hit them (probably before explorers reach there, unless someones in the Caribbean) and then collapse under plague. If no noes in the Caribbean then they will likely find a more divided Mexico then in OTL, unless the Tarascans take advantage of the Aztecs weakness (the Aztecs will be hit first as they had more trade contacts, and then the Tarascans might attack. Without a dangerous enemy attacking them while during a plague the Tarascans might survive better. Or they to might collapse.)
There are claims that China reached California a couple years after Colombus got to Hispanola and that they also were early explorers of Alaska. How much of that is true I'm unsure of, but if Spain, like mentioned in an earlier post, became a late player to Exploration, we may see a Chinese colony in California.
This is The Plot to Orson Scott Card's Book, Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus ...
One of The Characters Blows up The Nina and The Pinta, After The Santa Maria Runs Aground ...
Columbus then Winds up Founding a Christian Empire in The New World; Only After it Merges with a Native Empire in OTL Mexico, Does Columbus himself Return to Spain in Triumph!
Weren't Portuguese voyages a closely guarded state secret at the time? It's been speculated by Gavin Menzies in 1421: The Year China Discovered the World (I know, not exactly a scholarly work) that Columbus actually had some sort of map of the New World, and that the Portuguese were to some degree familiar with the Caribbean.
Regardless, it seems to be the consensus that North America's existence was no secret, but its economic possibilities were not appreciated. Would Spain's interests be channeled to the New World without Columbus, or would they focus on North Africa, as some have suggested? Would another nation necessarily want to claim the Indes? The Portugues didn't, and the English, Dutch, and French didn't claim islands until the European economic boom triggered by silver from Spain's American colonies.
I'm no expert on the topic, but how necessary was Columbus to Spain's extensive interest in the New World? I'm under the impression that a whole generation of hidalgos with no Moors left to conquer went to America to seek new kingdoms. With no Columbus, would they have gone to Africa instead?
I doubt it . The Confucian faction had already won control of the Ming Court by that time , leading to the infamous( By today) destruction of Zheng He's Treasure Fleet . Given that the Ming Dynasty soon fell into decline , I doubt that the Chinese would have enough time to reverse their policy to re engagement and expansionism before the Europeans colonise all of Costal America.
Not to mention that there was little to no Spanish influence on the Pacific Coast of North America for hundreds of years after Columbus.