‘ο ’αερόφοιτος Δαίδαλος

MrP

Banned
Either assume for the sake of argument that Daedalus lived, or posit the existence of another skilled artisan in Minoan Crete. According to legend, after being imprisoned by Minos, he fashioned an escape mechanism by gluing wings to himself and his son, then flying off - his son flew too close the sun, the wax attaching the feathers melted, and he plummeted to his demise. Daedalus carried on until Sicily. A legendary story, a primitive explanation for the origin of δαίδαλος - meaning skilled or cunning.

But what if?

Is it feasible for a philosopher of this era of technology to produce first a glider, then later a hot air balloon? Could the knowledge of primitive flight be transmitted to Egypt, the Middle East, even the whole Mediterranean basin?

So - is it practical?

The title is Daedalus who wanders through the sky - the word's Aristophanean.
 
Last edited:

Thande

Donor
Very interesting idea, P.

Didn't one of the Byzantines (or it may have been an early Ottoman) invent a successful glider? I ask only because of the similarity in location and thus presumably available materials, although I realise it was thousands of years later.
 

MrP

Banned
Very interesting idea, P.

Didn't one of the Byzantines (or it may have been an early Ottoman) invent a successful glider? I ask only because of the similarity in location and thus presumably available materials, although I realise it was thousands of years later.

Intriguing! I shall PM the Pasha!*

* and Sargon, as I realised as I was writing it!
 
Last edited:

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
In reply to the PM I was sent....

I think it was an Ottoman called Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi: he apparently glided across the Bosphorus in the 1630s.


Sargon
 

MrP

Banned
In reply to the PM I was sent....

I think it was an Ottoman called Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi: he apparently glided across the Bosphorus in the 1630s.


Sargon

Hm, intriguing, that. I can't offhand think of owt in terms of natural materials that a Minoan philosopher couldn't have acquired . . . promising! Cheers, Sargon! :)
 

MrP

Banned
I should note, lest any pedants enter, that using ancient Greek for Daedalus is wrong, since Linear B is a more primitive form of it and more suited to the socio-temporal stuff under discussion. Plus lower case ancient Greek's a mediaeval invention, anyway! ;)
 

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
Hm, intriguing, that. I can't offhand think of owt in terms of natural materials that a Minoan philosopher couldn't have acquired . . . promising! Cheers, Sargon! :)

You're welcome Pete. I'm sure the Pasha will know a lot more than me about it. I only know a little from one of the books I've recently been reading about Turkey.


Sargon
 

MrP

Banned
Bumped.

Does anyone know whether this hot air balloon is technologically possible or impossible, then?
 

MrP

Banned
Right, I shall breathe life back into this thread somehow. :rolleyes:

M. Julius said:
The invention of the hot air balloon has been lost to history. The Greeks, as was their wont, assigned its design to Daedalus, along with pictures, the saw and many other inventions. We know from archaeological excavations conducted in the ruins of the Minoan civilisation that the balloon was probably first crafted at some point during the Neopalatial period. Who the first aeronauts were we can but speculate, but we can be certain of the thrill or the terror that must have gripped them as land dropped away beneath them.

Modern experimental archaeologists have analysed the remains that have been found, and with a little imagination have created their own. These are little more than bags of animal skins and cloth sewn together, and the hot air provided by burning wood on a grate. The sad accident that claimed the lives of two of my esteemed colleagues in Neapolis last year has highlighted the dangers of this primitive form of balloon.

The limitations of this early balloon are all too apparent, and for a long time the application was somewhat limited. Although small groups of philosophically inclined men spread the use of the device around the eastern Mediterranean Basin over the next several hundred years, and it gradually matured into a more developed creation. However, its employment in the second battle of Salamis* by the Euboean general Erasistratus is generally held to have marked its first true use in warfare.

The trireme had only recently come into general use, and the historian Creon tells us that the Euboeans were still uncertain in their handling of the new ships...

* during the Confederal War between the Euboean Alliance and Corinth.
 

MrP

Banned
..........
Extract from Book I of Creon's Histories said:
Then the Euboeans, because the Corinthians did not sail into the gulf to meet them, wished to draw their enemies in. So at dawn they put to sea, and sailed close to the shore first away from the gulf and then back toward it. On their right they had placed their twenty finest triremes, in order that in the event of the Corinthians attacking them, the ships should envelop them. However, five of the older ships lagged behind the fleet, and seemed to be in trouble.

When Eumelus [the Corinthian admiral], saw what the Euboeans were attempting, he thought he saw his opportunity, and at once dashed in with sixty of his triremes, believing both that Erasistratus was uncertain in his command, and that he could thus destroy the enemy fleet.

However, the previous day Erasistratus had warned his aeronauts, who had previously been the eyes of the fleet and nothing more, that he wished them to keep their fires burning and to be prepared to move at a moment's notice. Therefore, when the chief aeronaut saw Eumelus' ships charging in against those of Erasistratus, he recalled his orders, and sent his men to their balloons.

Erasistratus, in turn recognising the crucial moment, sent a signal to his men on the five ships that appeared to be in danger. Then these ships turned their helms toward the Corinthians', and began to row as quickly as possible. The previous day cords had been so tied as to connect these ships to the balloons, and the lines swiftly became taut, pulling the balloons toward even as they lifted aloft.

Eumelus was not much perturbed, for from his vantage point on his ship he could see no ropes and nothing strange. So on he came with his ships, and the gap between the five slow Euboean vessels and the new ships under Erasistratus seemed too great. There was no doubt that Eumelus would destroy the older ships, then turn on the still outnumbered ships of Erasistratus.

Then the captains of the slower ships, which had been specially crewed with all those men who loved to swim, ordered their men to swim back to the shore. Eumelus saw this, and believed that the Euboeans were panicking, and he signalled his fleet to close the fleeing enemy and cut them down.

However, as the very first of the Corinthian ships reached the position of the old ships, the men in the balloons above dropped burning cinders from above her, and threw rocks. Then the ship caught fire and no longer in full control, turned in circles as a seed does.

At this unexpected and amazing feat Eumelus and his squadron fell into confusion, and their hearts were seized by terror. The oarsmen were unwilling to row while the ship was on fire, and some of them sank their oars into the water, checking the headway of their vessels, intending to put out the flames - a serious mistake to make in the face of Erasistratus' ships, which were now almost upon them. Other captains, unfamiliar with the waters, panicked and ran aground, where they were set upon by the Euboean crews who had swum ashore and by a small detachment of hoplites commanded by Gorgias of Leucimme.

Erasistratus, when he saw what was happening, took courage, and uttered a single word of command that sent his small fast squadron charging the larger Corinthian force. But the Corinthians had made so many mistakes and were then in such disorder that, despite resisting briefly, they soon turned and fled to Aegina, whence they had come.

The Euboeans gave chase, and not only captured thirteen of the Corinthian vessels at sea, but also a further six which had run aground. In addition, it is reported by Callias of Olynthus* that eight ships were also so badly burned that they were no longer useful. Eumelus himself, when he saw that the battle was lost, killed himself with his own sword.

After this battle both sides began to take care to employ more archers on their vessels so as to guard against the dangers of the aeronauts and fire. Thus ended the summer of the third year of the war.

* Author of The Catalogues, a lost work.
 

MrP

Banned
Very nice, P!

Where are you going from this?

Cheers! :) Um, an excellent question, fenk! I'm vaguely hoping someone else will take the idea and run with it, leaving me free to drown myself in Scotch. ;)

I'm currently thinking of aeronautics in Hellas, and perhaps in Egypt and the Persian Empire. I haven't used any historical names in the above (well, I have, but I've changed the allegiances), but I'm vaguely positing summat similar to the Peloponnesian Wars between the Euboean Alliance (looser than the Athenian one) and the Corinthians. There's no Sparta, as the OTL city of Therapne is the dominant one in Laconia, and is much more like normal Greek statelets. The period is about 6th-5th centuries BC.

Luckily, if I write in a Thucydidean style - and you may've noticed a lot of the naval battle was ripped from a certain engagement Phormio had ;) - I can pretty much ignore the outside world, dismissing everyone else as beardy-weirdies unworthy of Hellenic attention. ;)
 

Thande

Donor
I'm vaguely hoping someone else will take the idea and run with it, leaving me free to drown myself in Scotch.
Sigworthy :D

And I'd love to see you write in a contemporary classical style as you mention :cool:
 

MrP

Banned
The use of airships as weapons of war, rather than merely as the eyes of the generals, can be dated to an admiral of the Euboean Navy, Erasistratos, during the First Symmachian War. In the short peace between that conflict and the Egyptian War, an unknown aeronaut had the brainwave of using a hand-cranked propellor. We are immensely fortunate to have an indisputable contemporary depiction of one of these early airships in the shrine of the god Ouranos on the Acropolis of Karystos at the southern end of Euboea. This primitive vessel seems to have been given rudimentary wings and a tail, after the manner of birds. It even plays a significant role in the works of the comic playwright Evander, most notably in his play The Aeronauts.*

However, the most striking influence this invention was to have was not on comedy, but on the battlefield. The use of airships was still a relatively small scale business outside Hellas at this point, but during the Egyptian War, the ability of Hellenic airships to attack and manoeuvre above the battlefield proved a major problem to the 26th Dynasty. The catastrophic series of battles in this war led to the fall of the Dynasty, and the rise of a new Pharaoh, Ankhkaenre Psammetichus V, a former general of his predecessor, and founder of the 27th Dynasty. Egyptian records claim that Ankhkaenre was the only commander to have any significant success against the Hellenes, capturing several thousand Corinthian hoplites, and forcing the invaders to sue for peace to regain their men.

Unfortunately for the Hellenes, the new Pharaoh, a former general, had an active mind, and saw the dangers and potential of airships. Keenly aware of Egypt’s poor iron-working abilities, the new Pharaoh encouraged all manner of scientific endeavours among his philosophers and priests. It paid off quite dramatically when a priest of Horus, Amasis by name, discovered hydrochloric and nitric acids. As everyone schoolboy who has ever dreamed of becoming an aeronaut knows, these are essential for the formation of hydrogen gas. And with that gas the airship is freed from its reliance on hot air for lift…

* TTL’s version of Aristophanes’ Birds.
 

Thande

Donor
Nice, P.

I was wondering if you should use the old-fashioned names for the acids, but of course those were invented by Arabs and mediaeval alchemists, so aren't suitable either. Perhaps you could suggest some alternatives? Hydrochloric acid was originally 'acidum salis', spirit of salt, due to the fact that it was made by adding common salt to vitriol (sulfuric acid). Vitriol itself so called because its salts were glassy (vitreous) in appearance.
 

MrP

Banned
Nice, P.

I was wondering if you should use the old-fashioned names for the acids, but of course those were invented by Arabs and mediaeval alchemists, so aren't suitable either. Perhaps you could suggest some alternatives? Hydrochloric acid was originally 'acidum salis', spirit of salt, due to the fact that it was made by adding common salt to vitriol (sulfuric acid). Vitriol itself so called because its salts were glassy (vitreous) in appearance.

I'm a bit torn myself, to be honest. On the one hand, it doesn't seem like a proper ATL with all the same names. On the other hand, I'm going for a Greek feel to things. I'll probably rename some, though.
 
This is rather interesting. The technology for a hang-glider certainly wasn't so advanced for that time that it couldn't have been invented. Maybe the West has more success against enemies like the Persians, but they'd just copy it, so I can only think of some weird ways they are used.
 
Very interesting idea, P.

Didn't one of the Byzantines (or it may have been an early Ottoman) invent a successful glider? I ask only because of the similarity in location and thus presumably available materials, although I realise it was thousands of years later.
It was an Ottoman, IIRC.
 
Liking it, but...
...Accordint to Wiki, Hydrochloric and Nitrate acid were only discovered in 800 A.D. in Arabia. That seems like a rather large jump in Tech.
 

MrP

Banned
Liking it, but...
...Accordint to Wiki, Hydrochloric and Nitrate acid were only discovered in 800 A.D. in Arabia. That seems like a rather large jump in Tech.

I know what y'mean, but I checked before writing with my scientific advisor, Mr Thande, ;) who advises me that there's no reason it couldn't've been discovered earlier. Basically, I asked him about obtaining hydrogen, and he said: "Acid, and you can have it discovered sooner."
 
Top