Given knowledge of OTL's ship technology and logistical capacity, and for the moment disregarding political or economic factors, what's the earliest that sustained trans-Atlantic contact could be initiated between any European/Mediterranean/African society and any Indigenous American society?
Earliest possible sustained trans-Atlantic contact?
- Thread starter Qhapaq Inka
- Start date
XIVth century, maybe. At the point carracks were a thing, you had the possibility of trans-oceanic navigations.
Of course, you'll need as well an earlier discovery of eastern Atlantic archipelago, probably a quicker Reconquista.
The big obstacle is, obviously, the Plague. You don't have that much punch to go exploring all around with a third to half of your population feeding the worms.
Of course, you'll need as well an earlier discovery of eastern Atlantic archipelago, probably a quicker Reconquista.
The big obstacle is, obviously, the Plague. You don't have that much punch to go exploring all around with a third to half of your population feeding the worms.
SunDeep
Banned
What about an ATL where the Vikings in Newfoundland manage to get on with the natives, allowing Vinland to survive ITTL, with the Vinlanders establishing a trade route between the Americas and Europe? This way, you could get that sustained trans-Atlantic contact established much earlier on; back in the 11th century, two centuries before the Black Death even reaches Europe.
The point is about "sustainable" contacts.
You had nothing of real interest for Norses in North America, safe wood and metals. No real incitative to set up a permanent colony there.
And even if you had permanent establishment as in Greenland, considering the lack of contacts IOTL (mostly because Greenland was pretty much uninteresting on its own), you won't have trade roads popping out of nowhere just because of what would be an extanded Norse periphery.
I know we're supposed to ignore economic or political factors, but once you bar that, you'd only have at best half-randomly popping contacts (and more with Greenland than with Europe per se directly) in order to ravitail some other establishments, without any real incitative to change it.
You had nothing of real interest for Norses in North America, safe wood and metals. No real incitative to set up a permanent colony there.
And even if you had permanent establishment as in Greenland, considering the lack of contacts IOTL (mostly because Greenland was pretty much uninteresting on its own), you won't have trade roads popping out of nowhere just because of what would be an extanded Norse periphery.
I know we're supposed to ignore economic or political factors, but once you bar that, you'd only have at best half-randomly popping contacts (and more with Greenland than with Europe per se directly) in order to ravitail some other establishments, without any real incitative to change it.
SunDeep
Banned
Nothing of interest? Why do you think they called it 'Vinland' then?
At the very least, you'd have had trade routes established to export the Vinlanders' wine back to the Viking territories in Europe, none of which possessed climates mild enough to produce wine themselves. And the resources of 'real interest' like wood and metals are all there in abundance, even if Vinland's extent is purely limited to the island of Newfoundland. All they need is the time to find them.For the same reason they named an isolated half-frozen place Greenland. Because it looks better on a saga than "Today, we found another forest. Hooray".Nothing of interest? Why do you think they called it 'Vinland' then?
1) "Vin" part of Vineland isn't a mention of actual wine, that didn't existed in America until some centuries passed; but a reference to "wine" made of berries.
2) Are you suggesting that exporting "berry wine" (that doesn't age or support move very well) from the other side of a great sea, up to Scandinavia would be cheaper and more interesting than importing it along traditional and much closer lands would be "interesting"? (Well, I suppose it would imply "interesting" stuff, granted, but not as we meant)
They basically came in North America to find wood, and that was quite an obvious ressource to find. I don't think they had too much trouble to deal with that.
Driftless
Donor
Grand Banks
The L'Anse aux Meadows site is on the North end of Newfoundland. If the Vinlanders had picked a site more on the South End, as in the St John area, they would have been on the edge of the great fishery of the Grand Banks. With their sailing skills, that would have been the equivalent of hitting the lottery. Instead of Vinland, it might have been called something like "Fiskurhiem"
The L'Anse aux Meadows site is on the North end of Newfoundland. If the Vinlanders had picked a site more on the South End, as in the St John area, they would have been on the edge of the great fishery of the Grand Banks. With their sailing skills, that would have been the equivalent of hitting the lottery. Instead of Vinland, it might have been called something like "Fiskurhiem"
Forgive my ignorance on the topic of shipping, trade, and trans-Atlantic navigation, but would it have been possible for a Mediterranean/Iberian society to establish sustained contact with the Americas during antiquity or the middle ages? Again, disregarding the political will or economic necessity to do so (or more likely lack thereof) could the technology have supported it at any time prior to the 15th century?
The main powers I'm curious about are Rome (c. 2nd century) and the Umayyad Caliphate (7th-8th centuries), including the Andalusian Umayyads (8th-11th centuries)
The main powers I'm curious about are Rome (c. 2nd century) and the Umayyad Caliphate (7th-8th centuries), including the Andalusian Umayyads (8th-11th centuries)
Maur
Banned
Exactly. Thats why they called Labrador Markland.
Oh wait...
Not really, with settled something in America, Greenland is just a pit stop in the route.
In terms of nautical capability, the Vikings could have sustained contact with Vinland. Especially as they were capable of adapting to the increased demands of the voyages. Might even have done Iceland some good.
As far as having reason to, I suspect that if you managed to get a colony going, it would have had a massive population increase, and humans would have found a way to profit.
As far as having reason to, I suspect that if you managed to get a colony going, it would have had a massive population increase, and humans would have found a way to profit.
For diverse reasons, (regarding Rome we had a recent thread about it there), it's unlikely.
Not that they didn't had a maritime technology (both material and immaterial) that allowed long-range trade (especially late Umayyads), but we're talking about mediterranean or coastal atlantic navigation that have a quite different settings than plain sea for at least a month.
At the very best, the XIIIth century could do it, assuming they adapt out of nowhere mediterranean early carracks for atlantic navigation but that's all.
Regarding Vikings, as the OP specifically ask for sustained contacts between America and Europe, I must disagree once again : the contacts that existed historically (and that were more or less regular) were between Groenland and North America, never directly from Europe.
Not only for "economical" purposes (as Greenland needed commodities they couldn't find in their own region, and with Europe being too far for being a main provider), but for technological purposes : scandinavians ships while fit for long-range expedition, didn't really went too much in plain sea, preferring coastal or island jumping navigation.
If they didn't maintained IOTL regular contacts with even Greenland, it's not because they didn't tought about it, but because it wasn't neither interesting ("If they knew about America they" argument doesn't really hold : Greenlanders knew about America at least up to the XIV century, and nobody gave a shit) or easy to do.
Well, yes exactly why. The goal of their expedition was wood, and when they found some they called one of the land "Woodland". Calling everything they named too much litterraly wouldn't have looked good on sagas (And yes, fouding the land of wine looks better than land of wood : it's why we remember the former and not the latter).
Depends a lot on what 'sustained contact' means. If it means a couple of merchant ships a year or even one every couple of years - possibly iceland-vinland rather than vinland-europe, then Viking Era is entirely possible.
If you mean regular traffic, a dozen or more ships a year, say, then it would take longer. The 14th century as someone suggested sounds right. And WHY would there be that many ships? Vínland wouldnt really have much to export, and you cant run trade with empty ships on one leg!
If you mean regular traffic, a dozen or more ships a year, say, then it would take longer. The 14th century as someone suggested sounds right. And WHY would there be that many ships? Vínland wouldnt really have much to export, and you cant run trade with empty ships on one leg!