No Islam

If the prophet never emerged as a major figure what are the consequences.

I assume no crusades, less human suffering.

Would a non Islamic Arab World have kept old learning which in otl led to the European Renaisance.
 
'Kept old learning'? You do know that the Islamic world was much more advanced in almost every field, that they did keep 'old learning', that the European Renaissance was driven in great part by Greek wisdom filtering in from the East? Without Islam, Christian sects and religions like Zoroastrianism and Mandaeism will rule. The area is liable to be swept into the turmoil of the Dark and Medieval ages in this scenario. Barbarians and idiots will destroy ancient texts just as in Europe, so the Technological Renaissance will be a great bit longer in coming. Plus, the lack of a common enemy is going to be detrimental to state building and religious unity in Europe. Feudalism is liable to last much longer, and the Roman church will likely crumble. Avoidance of loss in life will be negligible in the long term. Overall, it's a bad deal.

EDIT: Also, this is the wrong section. Muhammad wasn't born after 1900.
 
'Kept old learning'? You do know that the Islamic world was much more advanced in almost every field, that they did keep 'old learning', that the European Renaissance was driven in great part by Greek wisdom filtering in from the East? Without Islam, Christian sects and religions like Zoroastrianism and Mandaeism will rule. The area is liable to be swept into the turmoil of the Dark and Medieval ages in this scenario. Barbarians and idiots will destroy ancient texts just as in Europe, so the Technological Renaissance will be a great bit longer in coming. Plus, the lack of a common enemy is going to be detrimental to state building and religious unity in Europe. Feudalism is liable to last much longer, and the Roman church will likely crumble. Avoidance of loss in life will be negligible in the long term. Overall, it's a bad deal.

EDIT: Also, this is the wrong section. Muhammad wasn't born after 1900.

Islam wasn't a necessary precursor for the Renaissance. The knowledge originating from India and Persia in particular was.

So the question is would the persons who developed and retained the knowledge have functioned under a regime where Islam was not the dominant religion. I don't really see why they would not have. Certainly the ERE would be a very different state without the continual pressure from the (mostly) Muslim nomads. Retaining Alexandria as part of the Mediterranean world rather than part of the East by itself may have been enough to maintain the flow of information from the East into the "West".

Certainly Constantinople was a primary source of much of the imported knowledge into Western Europe.
 
"No Islam" is a dinosaur-sized butterfly, changes i may bring is hard to predict because nearly everyone in the old world was directly or indirectly influenced by Islam.

1) The Arabs remain disorganized, and Arabic did not replace a bunch of Semitic languages in West Asia and North Africa.

2) The Eastern Romans might be able to survive until modern days, and Asia Minor would remain Greco-Christian.

3) Iberia remains Christian. Although the small Visigothic ruling class was going to fade away at some point in time. That means no reconquista, no overt religious zeal which brought far-reaching consequences to Spanish and Latin American societies.

4) Persian Empire was going to survive.

5) India was still going to be invaded by foreigners, but none of these foreigners would be able to alter the Indian worldview in a significant way. In a long run, they were going to assimilate and become Indians.

6) Central Asia and Southeast Asia would be mainly under Indian (and Persian) influences.

7) No Battle of Talas would mean a better fate for General Geshu Han the Tang Dynasty, but the long-term consequences of Islam on China is negligible until the Ming Dynasty. #

8) Africa would be spared Arab slave traders, but in turn, African Kings might not have so many ulema and imam as advisers. I know too little about Africa to make any comment, but and Indianized East Africa anyone? Pidgin Tamil instead of Swahili?

9) Without a trans-continental Abbasid Caliphate, different cultures might not have a chance to converge and mingle in Baghdad's House of Wisdom. And without translation movement many Ancient Greco-Roman scripts might be lost. (Although some Christian monks faithfully copied classic scriptures, many other parchments were wiped clean to write Gospels on them.)

10) I heard that while the Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Middle-age Europeans emphasized on theoretical reasoning, the early Arab scientist focused more on evidence and experimentation. And that turned out to be a cornerstone for Renaissance ideas.

(The reason why recently Islam turned out to be so conservative and close-minded remain a topic of fierce debate. Al-Ghazali might have been wrongfully blamed for it and the real cause might actually be the inward turn Islam incurs on itself after Mongol Conquest.)

The above are merely the DIRECT consequences of "no Islam", what these factors may interact with each other and play out is hard to predict.

# Although there would be more direct links to the Fulin or eastern Romans, as well as the Hellenize cultures in Central Asia.
 
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To expand on a point above: Without the Battle of the Talas River, Central Asia will likely be far more Sinicized. The Tang Dynasty may reach as far west as the Caspian if it's lucky.

The Turkic peoples will likely still push into Iran and Eastern Europe, and they will bring more Chinese cultural influences with them. They will also likely bring a lot more Persian influence, and the Manichaean religion may become dominant among them (it was quite strong in the region in OTL, for a time).
 
I assume no crusades, less human suffering.

So we are blaming Islam for those barbarian invasions from the unwashed north? This sounds so...so...wrong.

Exploring a world in which Islam never developed and spread, is an interesting question. Presuming this would mean less human suffering is just offensive.
 
'Kept old learning'? You do know that the Islamic world was much more advanced in almost every field, that they did keep 'old learning', that the European Renaissance was driven in great part by Greek wisdom filtering in from the East? Without Islam, Christian sects and religions like Zoroastrianism and Mandaeism will rule. The area is liable to be swept into the turmoil of the Dark and Medieval ages in this scenario. Barbarians and idiots will destroy ancient texts just as in Europe, so the Technological Renaissance will be a great bit longer in coming. Plus, the lack of a common enemy is going to be detrimental to state building and religious unity in Europe. Feudalism is liable to last much longer, and the Roman church will likely crumble. Avoidance of loss in life will be negligible in the long term. Overall, it's a bad deal.

EDIT: Also, this is the wrong section. Muhammad wasn't born after 1900.

Weren't the Zoroastrian Sassanian Persians rather enlightened? And the greek Romans kept as much culture and tradition alive as the Islamic Caliphates, they had the Library of Alexandria after all.
 
I wouldn't say "less human suffering" follows from this necessarily. More than anything else this just seems like it would shift around the suffering in different directions.
 

Seraphiel

Banned
The Islamic Golden Age was one of the greatest periods in human science and culture. Arabic scholars kept alive by far the greatest portion of ancient greek texts and built significantly on this, ranging from medicine to math (Arabic numerals anyone, algebra which comes from Arabic). Without Islam there might have been another culture that would have done the same thing but what makes the Islamic Golden Age so great was the fact that their empire was so huge and thus they could gather together such a massive portion of the most developed societies in the world. Without Islam the Renaiscance would not have happened unless something radically altered in Christendom and the obsession with religion waned a little.
 
The Islamic Golden Age was one of the greatest periods in human science and culture. Arabic scholars kept alive by far the greatest portion of ancient greek texts

I would have thought the Greeks did this, at least before the arabs conquered them. Additionally that the renassiance was kickstarted by greek refuges to Italy.
 
The Islamic Golden Age was one of the greatest periods in human science and culture. Arabic scholars kept alive by far the greatest portion of ancient greek texts and built significantly on this, ranging from medicine to math (Arabic numerals anyone, algebra which comes from Arabic). Without Islam there might have been another culture that would have done the same thing but what makes the Islamic Golden Age so great was the fact that their empire was so huge and thus they could gather together such a massive portion of the most developed societies in the world. Without Islam the Renaiscance would not have happened unless something radically altered in Christendom and the obsession with religion waned a little.

Honestly how on earth does Greek and Roman knowledge lead to the renaisance? I've seen dozens of people on this site restate this "fact" but no part of me understands how some stuffy old incorrect science and writings mattered to the economic development of Italy and Europe.
 

Seraphiel

Banned
I would have thought the Greeks did this, at least before the arabs conquered them. Additionally that the renassiance was kickstarted by greek refuges to Italy.

The Coptic Pope (Greek/Roman) burned down the Library of Alexandria in the 5th century while the Muslims built the Baghdad House of Wisdom, hat there pretty much sums up which of the two was more "enlightened", or whatever. There are numerous other examples such as the closure of the Platonic Acedemy by the Byzantines, the iconoclasm, etc. The Byzantines were also almost constantly at war which tends to dampen any scientific or cultural pursuits as well.
 
If the prophet never emerged as a major figure what are the consequences.
Indeed, basically everything since the Middle-Ages would be butterflied big time on third continents at the same time right from the starts.

I assume no crusades, less human suffering.
Well, Crusades were hardly the only violent event of the era.
Islamic conquests weren't that pretty on their own (the wars against Berbers were quite bloody), maintain and use of slavery at a point not seen since centuries, dynastic warfare, feudal desintegration, carolingian conquests, etc.

To choose, frankly, Crusades were maybe the least bloody event of this short (and non-exhaustive) list.

In a non-historical context, human suffering is eventually tied too much to human condition to be get rid of because someone forgot to preach for a religious principle.

Would a non Islamic Arab World have kept old learning which in otl led to the European Renaisance.
Probably, but differently.

Arabo-Islamic world transmission of knowledge was made in two times.

1) Gathering and translating Greco-Roman corpus. They weren't the only ones to do this (Carolingian renaissance did a good job at preserving latin corpus for instance) but they did on a bigger scale and with a direct access to ancient hellenistic sources (by conquest or proximity with Byzantium)

2) Arabo-Islamic proper discoveries : It didn't happened overnight of course, but after the first centuries and the stabilisation of Arabo-Islamic world, several important advancies were made, as in optics, mettallurgy, etc.
The existance of a cultural and economical continuum from Spain to India greatly helped the gathering, mix and eventually new discoveries in scientific matters.

Without Islam, the 1) part is still there : Byzantium mostly, but as well in Western Europe(while more latin minded than greek, and therefore less focused on strictly scientific issues). So, eventually, it would have been done.

The second part is more trickly : the new discoveries depended heavily from the context they were made, and likely to have their OTL development butterflied.
Furthermore, some proper development made in western world independently (as compass) from others cultures would be likely changed as well, as their premisses were dependent of 2).

You may have a delay (hard to guesstimate. I would say no more than one century, but that's unbackable) of discoveries, the gathering and appropriation of ancient knowledge taking longer.

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On another consequences, we had a thread about that some times ago, and if you allow me to quote myself, there is what I tought then.

The immediate consequences (up to the VIII century) would be :

-Persia : Muslim conquest of the Sassanid Empire was really helped by a constant infighting or even civil war. Granted, they could likely recover from it, but I don't think they'll be able to launch a war as they did under Khorso II (that admittedly was the first reason of the decline of Sassanid in first place)

-Arabia : Even without Islam and OTL conquest motivation, Arabs are a potential threat. Neighboring provinces are still under-protected and likely to be raided.
Of course, without politically united Arabia, it's likely their neighbors would split it under spheres of influences as OTL, but with a likely continued Sassanid and Aksumite decline, you'll have eventually a regional domination of indigenous Arabs.

-ERE : While its control on Egypt and Syria was loose, I don't think that the provinces would pose much trouble if emperors continue a tolerant (genuine or not) policy regarding religion. But in the likely case of emperor being more rigorist or more struggling in the N-E of their empire for imposing their religious views...

Finally, it won't change many things about Italy or Western European possessions : Italy was quite troubled even before Lombards and theses are likely to hold firmly their new lands, but not to take more on South (and with Benevento being most likely taken back)
The same for Spania.
Agruably, these gains were partially due to the long lasting Persian War, but the ERE is in the VII exhausted as well and can't really do a counter-attack.

But I think the Byzantines possessions in western Mediterranean would keep being autonomous from Constantinople as they were.

Except that, and possible Arab raids, it's likely that the Empire would face Balkanic and Slavic invasions better than OTL

-Visigoths : As OTL most likely, they would ascend in civil war up to the end of VII century. Eventually a pretender more powerful would emerge, and the kingdom would keep its traditional sphere : Hispania, Western North Africa. Speaking of which...

-North Africa : Mostly Byzantine held, with Berber Kingdoms that slowly Christianize Visigoths and Byzantines. A great asset for Byzantines in their control of Mediterranean Basin.

-Francia : Without Islamic invasion of Spain, it's likely Aquitaine would survive (its existence being based on balance with Visigothic Spain, Wasconia and Francia). It wouldn't prevent the Frankish conquest of Frisia, Saxony or even Avars, that were largely independent of the Islamic threat southwards.

-Christianism : without Islam, without the fall of Visigothic Spain, and with Byzance strong enough to keep the Lombards in Northern Italy : it's likely the popes wouldn't have to call Franks to help against these latters.
While keeping an important influential role in the western Christianity (that was quite different from Greek rites already), the church would certainly be more "national" as OTL (aka, ruled by local clergy under royal guidance).
Something like autocephalous patriarchates, without partiarchs
 

Seraphiel

Banned
Honestly how on earth does Greek and Roman knowledge lead to the renaisance? I've seen dozens of people on this site restate this "fact" but no part of me understands how some stuffy old incorrect science and writings mattered to the economic development of Italy and Europe.

They were a spark the way I see it, these old texts of more logical nature upset the Medieval Europe which is mostly known for theological texts. The way I see it is that what is that the entrance of the Greek knowledge was just one of many many different reasons for the Renaiscance.
 
They were a spark the way I see it, these old texts of more logical nature upset the Medieval Europe which is mostly known for theological texts. The way I see it is that what is that the entrance of the Greek knowledge was just one of many many different reasons for the Renaiscance.
The challenge is to keep it without OTL Islam. The Library of Alexandria was destroyed in the fifth century. Mohammad lived into the early seventh. How much time before Islam became a major force and how/where was math and science preserved between times? Without a conflict between Christians and Muslims, could another enlightened society have developed and where?
 
They were a spark the way I see it, these old texts of more logical nature upset the Medieval Europe which is mostly known for theological texts. The way I see it is that what is that the entrance of the Greek knowledge was just one of many many different reasons for the Renaiscance.

That just rings hollow to me. I mean do you have any evidence that the "logicalness" of Greek writing was in anyway exceptional, or that it upset the thought process of medieval Europe in any meaningful way? Because frankly it just seems like this entire idea is Whiggish.
 

Seraphiel

Banned
That just rings hollow to me. I mean do you have any evidence that the "logicalness" of Greek writing was in anyway exceptional, or that it upset the thought process of medieval Europe in any meaningful way? Because frankly it just seems like this entire idea is Whiggish.

Honestably I can barely spell the Renaiscance what I said was really just what I know about and what little IVe read about it. The Renaisance era is not my cup of tea.

What I meant earlier was that the expanding on older texts and ideas by the Muslim and not the preservation that made the Islamic Golden Age important for later eras such as the Renaiscance.

The challenge is to keep it without OTL Islam. The Library of Alexandria was destroyed in the fifth century. Mohammad lived into the early seventh. How much time before Islam became a major force and how/where was math and science preserved between times? Without a conflict between Christians and Muslims, could another enlightened society have developed and where?


Somehow make the pagan/Christian conflicts in Egypt weaker and than make the Coptics not want to go all out against anything "pagan". Dont know really. Though without the explosive force of Islam making an empire that spans three continents could be rather difficult, sure maybr a smaller society could do thr same thing as the Islamic Golden Age but I think It would be somewhat more difficult.
 
They were a spark the way I see it, these old texts of more logical nature upset the Medieval Europe which is mostly known for theological texts. The way I see it is that what is that the entrance of the Greek knowledge was just one of many many different reasons for the Renaiscance.

Not really : greek knowledge already went into medieval tought far before this : particularly Aristot, but not limited to.*

Eventually, by Arab transmission, Europe was in full contact with ancient hellenic corpus since the XI century (Sicily, Spain, mostly) even if the direct contact between Hellenic corpus and medieval latin world wasn't never really severed (Boetius is an exemple), but it remained secondary at least up to 1204 (byzantine texts were directly taken to the source during Latin rule).

The main difference between classical medieval tought and renaissance's was that Antiquity was no longer considered as a model to follow, but the only model to follow, and not due to a (much earlier) intorudiction of hellenic corpus, but to both social changes (decline of feudalism at the benefit of political entities using other structures) and to ideological one (religious crisis, decline of Universities, appearance of "nationalities")
Without these, OTL Renaissance would have probably been (if not butterflied, of course) another medieval renaissance alike XIIth Renaissance (more than the "limited" carolingian and ottonian renaissances, depsite their important legacy).
 
Somehow make the pagan/Christian conflicts in Egypt weaker and than make the Coptics not want to go all out against anything "pagan". Dont know really. Though without the explosive force of Islam making an empire that spans three continents could be rather difficult, sure maybr a smaller society could do thr same thing as the Islamic Golden Age but I think It would be somewhat more difficult.
Suppose without Islam, suppose Buddhism spread farther westward. Oriented to abstraction (as opposed to a Diety), could a Buddhist society have done well with the classical math and sciences?
 
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