WI: Lincoln loses, successor sues for peace: What next?

Imagine this: the 1863 Chattanooga Campaign goes better for the South. As a result, the Atlanta Campaign starts later and lasts longer. On Election Day, 1864, Lincoln loses to George Pendleton. In December, a month after election day, Atlanta falls as Lincoln is determined to continue the fight until inauguration day. In March, newly-elected President Pendleton signs a peace accord with the Confederacy. Virginia (sans West Virginia), North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida (sans the Florida Keys) Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas would be part of the new CSA. Tennessee would remain in the Union, and the Mississippi would be internationalized, with any attempt to close it to Union trade being construed as a declaration of war. On May 9, 1865, this peace accord is approved by the Senate.

What happens to the Union?

The Confederacy?

The slaves?

The native Americans?

disscuss
 
Imagine this: the 1863 Chattanooga Campaign goes better for the South. As a result, the Atlanta Campaign starts later and lasts longer. On Election Day, 1864, Lincoln loses to George Pendleton. In December, a month after election day, Atlanta falls as Lincoln is determined to continue the fight until inauguration day. In March, newly-elected President Pendleton signs a peace accord with the Confederacy. Virginia (sans West Virginia), North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida (sans the Florida Keys) Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas would be part of the new CSA. Tennessee would remain in the Union, and the Mississippi would be internationalized, with any attempt to close it to Union trade being construed as a declaration of war. On May 9, 1865, this peace accord is approved by the Senate.

What happens to the Union?

The Confederacy?

The slaves?

The native Americans?

disscuss

Pendleton may or may not survive his Presidency, which is likely to be viewed as a disaster. By 1866, Republicans have retaken the House of Representatives and slavery is going to be killed by Constitutional amendment either with Pendleton in office, or quite possibly after his death in office, or perhaps after his term ends.

The thing is, the Civil War doesn't really end, it just stops being a formal conflict. Abolitionists want to continue the war, but if they can't officially do that, they'll join what is likely a full scale insurgency inside the Confederacy itself.

The Election of Salmon Chase to the Presidency in 1868 probably means a re-ignition of the Civil War; and its a phase that goes very well for the Union. By 1872, Chase is re-elected with the great reunion of the United States as a personal glory, but doesn't live that long before he himself dies in office. His Vice President, one of the heroes of Gettysburg, Joshua Chamberlain, assumes the Presidency in May 1873.

Reconstruction by this point is a fundamentally different issue than in 1865. The Civil War simply went through a series of phases between war, guerrilla war, and redeclared war--and a large part of it is USCTs, Contrabands, Unionists and Abolitionists. There's no Lincoln even beginning to consider a moderate approach to reconstruction. The slaves are freed, guaranteed rights by Constitutional Amendments, and Confederate rebellions are stamped out.

No Jim Crow, as the freed slaves deserve a lot of recognition for their role in keeping the Union together. But there are confederate rebellions into 1900 as the Republicans hold power for a whole generation. It's even possible that the Democrats, tarred by Pendleton, wind up disappearing as a force for national politics and a different party of labor unions and poor farmers emerges.

===

The Confederacy's woes don't end at the peace table; Pendleton can order US troops out of its territory. But he can't order contraband's back on his chains and regaining control of locations like Atlanta, New Orleans and Montgomery will mean fighting ex-slaves by the thousand.

Nor can Pendleton stop Unionist and Abolitionists from supplying those contrabands and attempting to fan larger rebellions. This will also mean things like Louisiana attempting to counter-secede from the confederacy as New Orleans would be occupied, for the moment, by the same--and with some hope of getting the USA to back them, as the Mississippi is at stake.

This all means continued military action is necessary. Slavery can be reinstated, but nothing less than a major military campaign from a razed Atlanta to New Orleans.

Jefferson Davis leaves office facing serious issues of debt, internal security, and a broken economy. Unable to demobilize his army, struggling to rebuild when the labor supply is in open rebellion, and probably facing some horrible spiral of taxes, inflation and unsustainable finances, Davis can at least claim that he won the war.

His successor, Nathan Bedford Forrest, is initially the right man at the right time. Able to gain the buy-in of poor whites as a man who clawed his way to the top, Forrest is a force for Confederate solidarity in the ongoing attempt to reenslave free blacks, chop out Unionists, and restore order. But he doesn't have time.

Pendleton (or his successor, if he is killed in office) gets the boot in 1868. President Salmon Chase takes office, and quickly issues at first demands, before upping the ante to an ultimatum: Unionist territory inside Confederate borders belongs to the Union.

It's a darn fine mess for a nation that claims that it has the right to secede over states' rights to deny the same on its own, and these territories (Northern Alabama, North Texas, the Appalachians) also include solid defensive ground.

Forrest refuses. To accept would essentially spell the end of the Confederacy piecemeal, and he knows it. He could consider a foreign alliance, but the UK probably prefers the Union over the Confederacy and Bismarck's Prussia is kicking Napoleon III across the board. No one is offering.

With the Confederacy barely having any repairs finished, the Union's initial advances in 1869 reveal just how much stronger the Union is economically than the South. The Union has replaced its losses, improved its weaponry, and learned well from its mistakes in the previous war. The Confederacy, on the other hand, is broke, unable to fully repair itself and still faced with a hostile internal threat.

This war is a crusade to reunite the Union and Abolish Slavery. Meanwhile, the Confederacy is struggling to hold to the idea of slavery as a positive good. Forrest himself is a slave merchant, as committed to that cause as Jefferson Davis. As the situation grows more desperate, the Confederate Propaganda grows increasingly shrill about the "Right Nature of God".

The second round of the Civil War has a lot of the best Union commanders still in ranks, although I've suggested that Chamberlain would have gone into politics after his repeated injuries. Meanwhile, Robert E. Lee has died and Confederate command is perhaps equal.

The fortunes of war lead to repeated defeats for the Confederates, who face more frontage than the previous conflict, fewer men to do it, and a dedicated fifth column in terms of the slave system. Forrest flees with a bunch of precious metals to Brazil in 1872, where he lives out his life in exile. A series of trials begin for the highest traitors to the Union, amongst them Jefferson Davis, John C. Breckinridge, Forrest himself in absentia, and other figures like Judah Benjamin, Alexander Stephens, and most governors who decided to secede.

This makes for interesting viewing, although President Chamberlain commutes executions for those found deserving of that fate to life imprisonment.

The OTLish direction of reformers heading South to try to help the free blacks and build a new direction for the region has federal support under a tough reconstruction system that enfranchises former slaves. With no Forest, there is no KKK, but several things LIKE it do get repeatedly stamped out.

The historical narrative is clear: Slavery sunk the South. They can't win hearts and minds around the world for their cause, they can't win peace at home, they can't even win the limited normalcy that existed pre-1850. With former slaves serving an indispensable role in keeping the pressure on the rebels, they're due a cut of the victory. It will be deeply resented and likely one of the great antagonisms into 1900, but the cause has failed.

Many slaves died as brutal means were applied against their rebellions. Many were injured as a result of the ongoing war. But post-war, they get a better deal; guaranteed citizenship, state governments that use their power as a bloc in the era of reconstruction to build a new order, and also the option to head west.
===

Native Americans are still in serious trouble, eight years delay to the contrary. The issue isn't so much Stand Watie and pro-Confederate Indians; it's the very OTLish concern of politically powerless minorities having stuff that other people want.

The PoD also doesn't stop the likes of John Chivington from killing innocent Indians, although it would reroll the Indian wars of the 1870s a bit. The same problems remain, and things probably get very ugly.

The upshot is the USA may be somewhat less racist in the long run, if Reconstruction is forced to work instead of being called off for political reasons. But Indians had almost nothing going for them in OTL all the way to the time of FDR. It's not implausible that things get better earlier, but wanton massacres are still in the lineup.

===

All told, I think the likeliest outcome of a narrow confederate victory is a quick sequel and a decisive defeat. There are many new heroes; there are many dead zeroes.

George Armstrong Custer doesn't die to a giant band of plains Indians.
Thomas Edison is of age to serve in the Union army.
Presidents Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Harrison and McKinley were all military men in the Civil War; each of their fortunes is on the dice.

The world very quickly leaves OTL in favor of its own direction.
 
How would Pendlleton get his treaty through the Senate? That body was more than two to one Republican, and even in the new one a Democratic majority - let alone a Copperhead majority - would have been mathematically impossible.
 
How would Pendlleton get his treaty through the Senate? That body was more than two to one Republican, and even in the new one a Democratic majority - let alone a Copperhead majority - would have been mathematically impossible.

I don't think he needs to.
He could just pull out the troops, make an executive order and rescind the Emancipation Proclamation.

But the truth is, I don't see the Union really accepting "peace" as anything more than a Napoleonic hiatus. If Pendleton turns off the conflict via his C-In-C powers, the next C-In-C has a very strong hand for restarting the war.
 
The thing is, the Civil War doesn't really end, it just stops being a formal conflict. Abolitionists want to continue the war, but if they can't officially do that, they'll join what is likely a full scale insurgency inside the Confederacy itself.

Interesting and fairly credible.

Pendleton (or his successor, if he is killed in office) gets the boot in 1868. President Salmon Chase takes office, and quickly issues at first demands, before upping the ante to an ultimatum: Unionist territory inside Confederate borders belongs to the Union.

It's a darn fine mess for a nation that claims that it has the right to secede over states' rights to deny the same on its own, and these territories (Northern Alabama, North Texas, the Appalachians) also include solid defensive ground.

Forrest refuses. To accept would essentially spell the end of the Confederacy piecemeal, and he knows it. He could consider a foreign alliance, but the UK probably prefers the Union over the Confederacy and Bismarck's Prussia is kicking Napoleon III across the board. No one is offering.

Forrest was certainly in favor of white dominance, but he was also a pragmatist. At the start of OTL's ACW he offered freedom to any of his slaves willing to serve as teamsters, and Forrest kept his word. Faced with large enough numbers of free blacks and southern Unionists that could not be easily suppressed and a war he could not win, Forrest might be willing to cede Unionist areas to the Union. At the least, Forrest would endorse a plebiscite in Unionist areas.

With no Forest, there is no KKK, but several things LIKE it do get repeatedly stamped out.

Forrest did not found the KKK, he joined an organiztion founded by other men.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Nicely done, Blue...

The thing is, the Civil War doesn't really end, it just stops being a formal conflict. Abolitionists want to continue the war, but if they can't officially do that, they'll join what is likely a full scale insurgency inside the Confederacy itself.

With the Confederacy barely having any repairs finished, the Union's initial All told, I think the likeliest outcome of a narrow confederate victory is a quick sequel and a decisive defeat. There are many new heroes; there are many dead zeroes.

The world very quickly leaves OTL in favor of its own direction.

Blows the "Canada Lite/Ruined North" meme out of the water, of course, but I'm sure its defenders will show up...

Best,
 
Pendleton may or may not survive his Presidency, which is likely to be viewed as a disaster. By 1866, Republicans have retaken the House of Representatives and slavery is going to be killed by Constitutional amendment either with Pendleton in office, or quite possibly after his death in office, or perhaps after his term ends.

The thing is, the Civil War doesn't really end, it just stops being a formal conflict. Abolitionists want to continue the war, but if they can't officially do that, they'll join what is likely a full scale insurgency inside the Confederacy itself.

The Election of Salmon Chase to the Presidency in 1868 probably means a re-ignition of the Civil War; and its a phase that goes very well for the Union. By 1872, Chase is re-elected with the great reunion of the United States as a personal glory, but doesn't live that long before he himself dies in office. His Vice President, one of the heroes of Gettysburg, Joshua Chamberlain, assumes the Presidency in May 1873.

Reconstruction by this point is a fundamentally different issue than in 1865. The Civil War simply went through a series of phases between war, guerrilla war, and redeclared war--and a large part of it is USCTs, Contrabands, Unionists and Abolitionists. There's no Lincoln even beginning to consider a moderate approach to reconstruction. The slaves are freed, guaranteed rights by Constitutional Amendments, and Confederate rebellions are stamped out.

No Jim Crow, as the freed slaves deserve a lot of recognition for their role in keeping the Union together. But there are confederate rebellions into 1900 as the Republicans hold power for a whole generation. It's even possible that the Democrats, tarred by Pendleton, wind up disappearing as a force for national politics and a different party of labor unions and poor farmers emerges.

===

The Confederacy's woes don't end at the peace table; Pendleton can order US troops out of its territory. But he can't order contraband's back on his chains and regaining control of locations like Atlanta, New Orleans and Montgomery will mean fighting ex-slaves by the thousand.

Nor can Pendleton stop Unionist and Abolitionists from supplying those contrabands and attempting to fan larger rebellions. This will also mean things like Louisiana attempting to counter-secede from the confederacy as New Orleans would be occupied, for the moment, by the same--and with some hope of getting the USA to back them, as the Mississippi is at stake.

This all means continued military action is necessary. Slavery can be reinstated, but nothing less than a major military campaign from a razed Atlanta to New Orleans.

Jefferson Davis leaves office facing serious issues of debt, internal security, and a broken economy. Unable to demobilize his army, struggling to rebuild when the labor supply is in open rebellion, and probably facing some horrible spiral of taxes, inflation and unsustainable finances, Davis can at least claim that he won the war.

His successor, Nathan Bedford Forrest, is initially the right man at the right time. Able to gain the buy-in of poor whites as a man who clawed his way to the top, Forrest is a force for Confederate solidarity in the ongoing attempt to reenslave free blacks, chop out Unionists, and restore order. But he doesn't have time.

Pendleton (or his successor, if he is killed in office) gets the boot in 1868. President Salmon Chase takes office, and quickly issues at first demands, before upping the ante to an ultimatum: Unionist territory inside Confederate borders belongs to the Union.

It's a darn fine mess for a nation that claims that it has the right to secede over states' rights to deny the same on its own, and these territories (Northern Alabama, North Texas, the Appalachians) also include solid defensive ground.

Forrest refuses. To accept would essentially spell the end of the Confederacy piecemeal, and he knows it. He could consider a foreign alliance, but the UK probably prefers the Union over the Confederacy and Bismarck's Prussia is kicking Napoleon III across the board. No one is offering.

With the Confederacy barely having any repairs finished, the Union's initial advances in 1869 reveal just how much stronger the Union is economically than the South. The Union has replaced its losses, improved its weaponry, and learned well from its mistakes in the previous war. The Confederacy, on the other hand, is broke, unable to fully repair itself and still faced with a hostile internal threat.

This war is a crusade to reunite the Union and Abolish Slavery. Meanwhile, the Confederacy is struggling to hold to the idea of slavery as a positive good. Forrest himself is a slave merchant, as committed to that cause as Jefferson Davis. As the situation grows more desperate, the Confederate Propaganda grows increasingly shrill about the "Right Nature of God".

The second round of the Civil War has a lot of the best Union commanders still in ranks, although I've suggested that Chamberlain would have gone into politics after his repeated injuries. Meanwhile, Robert E. Lee has died and Confederate command is perhaps equal.

The fortunes of war lead to repeated defeats for the Confederates, who face more frontage than the previous conflict, fewer men to do it, and a dedicated fifth column in terms of the slave system. Forrest flees with a bunch of precious metals to Brazil in 1872, where he lives out his life in exile. A series of trials begin for the highest traitors to the Union, amongst them Jefferson Davis, John C. Breckinridge, Forrest himself in absentia, and other figures like Judah Benjamin, Alexander Stephens, and most governors who decided to secede.

This makes for interesting viewing, although President Chamberlain commutes executions for those found deserving of that fate to life imprisonment.

The OTLish direction of reformers heading South to try to help the free blacks and build a new direction for the region has federal support under a tough reconstruction system that enfranchises former slaves. With no Forest, there is no KKK, but several things LIKE it do get repeatedly stamped out.

The historical narrative is clear: Slavery sunk the South. They can't win hearts and minds around the world for their cause, they can't win peace at home, they can't even win the limited normalcy that existed pre-1850. With former slaves serving an indispensable role in keeping the pressure on the rebels, they're due a cut of the victory. It will be deeply resented and likely one of the great antagonisms into 1900, but the cause has failed.

Many slaves died as brutal means were applied against their rebellions. Many were injured as a result of the ongoing war. But post-war, they get a better deal; guaranteed citizenship, state governments that use their power as a bloc in the era of reconstruction to build a new order, and also the option to head west.
===

Native Americans are still in serious trouble, eight years delay to the contrary. The issue isn't so much Stand Watie and pro-Confederate Indians; it's the very OTLish concern of politically powerless minorities having stuff that other people want.

The PoD also doesn't stop the likes of John Chivington from killing innocent Indians, although it would reroll the Indian wars of the 1870s a bit. The same problems remain, and things probably get very ugly.

The upshot is the USA may be somewhat less racist in the long run, if Reconstruction is forced to work instead of being called off for political reasons. But Indians had almost nothing going for them in OTL all the way to the time of FDR. It's not implausible that things get better earlier, but wanton massacres are still in the lineup.

===

All told, I think the likeliest outcome of a narrow confederate victory is a quick sequel and a decisive defeat. There are many new heroes; there are many dead zeroes.

George Armstrong Custer doesn't die to a giant band of plains Indians.
Thomas Edison is of age to serve in the Union army.
Presidents Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Harrison and McKinley were all military men in the Civil War; each of their fortunes is on the dice.

The world very quickly leaves OTL in favor of its own direction.

I would LOVE to se you do this as a TL.
 
Could the Republican controlled Congress start an impeachment hearing for some reason or another?
Absolutely, and I'm sure the radicals, like Thaddeus Stevens, would try if they got a pretext for it. ("Treason," anyone?) The problem is that conviction requires two-thirds of the Senate. Now in OTL, the Republicans held a two-thirds majority... but even with that, enough Senators decided the harges against Johnson were bunk that his impeachment failed. If Lincoln is defeated TTL, I'm sure they wouldn't even have their nominal majority.
 
Pendleton may or may not survive his Presidency, which is likely to be viewed as a disaster. By 1866, Republicans have retaken the House of Representatives and slavery is going to be killed by Constitutional amendment either with Pendleton in office, or quite possibly after his death in office, or perhaps after his term ends.

The thing is, the Civil War doesn't really end, it just stops being a formal conflict. Abolitionists want to continue the war, but if they can't officially do that, they'll join what is likely a full scale insurgency inside the Confederacy itself.

The Election of Salmon Chase to the Presidency in 1868 probably means a re-ignition of the Civil War; and its a phase that goes very well for the Union. By 1872, Chase is re-elected with the great reunion of the United States as a personal glory, but doesn't live that long before he himself dies in office. His Vice President, one of the heroes of Gettysburg, Joshua Chamberlain, assumes the Presidency in May 1873.

Reconstruction by this point is a fundamentally different issue than in 1865. The Civil War simply went through a series of phases between war, guerrilla war, and redeclared war--and a large part of it is USCTs, Contrabands, Unionists and Abolitionists. There's no Lincoln even beginning to consider a moderate approach to reconstruction. The slaves are freed, guaranteed rights by Constitutional Amendments, and Confederate rebellions are stamped out.

No Jim Crow, as the freed slaves deserve a lot of recognition for their role in keeping the Union together. But there are confederate rebellions into 1900 as the Republicans hold power for a whole generation. It's even possible that the Democrats, tarred by Pendleton, wind up disappearing as a force for national politics and a different party of labor unions and poor farmers emerges.

===

The Confederacy's woes don't end at the peace table; Pendleton can order US troops out of its territory. But he can't order contraband's back on his chains and regaining control of locations like Atlanta, New Orleans and Montgomery will mean fighting ex-slaves by the thousand.

Nor can Pendleton stop Unionist and Abolitionists from supplying those contrabands and attempting to fan larger rebellions. This will also mean things like Louisiana attempting to counter-secede from the confederacy as New Orleans would be occupied, for the moment, by the same--and with some hope of getting the USA to back them, as the Mississippi is at stake.

This all means continued military action is necessary. Slavery can be reinstated, but nothing less than a major military campaign from a razed Atlanta to New Orleans.

Jefferson Davis leaves office facing serious issues of debt, internal security, and a broken economy. Unable to demobilize his army, struggling to rebuild when the labor supply is in open rebellion, and probably facing some horrible spiral of taxes, inflation and unsustainable finances, Davis can at least claim that he won the war.

His successor, Nathan Bedford Forrest, is initially the right man at the right time. Able to gain the buy-in of poor whites as a man who clawed his way to the top, Forrest is a force for Confederate solidarity in the ongoing attempt to reenslave free blacks, chop out Unionists, and restore order. But he doesn't have time.

Pendleton (or his successor, if he is killed in office) gets the boot in 1868. President Salmon Chase takes office, and quickly issues at first demands, before upping the ante to an ultimatum: Unionist territory inside Confederate borders belongs to the Union.

It's a darn fine mess for a nation that claims that it has the right to secede over states' rights to deny the same on its own, and these territories (Northern Alabama, North Texas, the Appalachians) also include solid defensive ground.

Forrest refuses. To accept would essentially spell the end of the Confederacy piecemeal, and he knows it. He could consider a foreign alliance, but the UK probably prefers the Union over the Confederacy and Bismarck's Prussia is kicking Napoleon III across the board. No one is offering.

With the Confederacy barely having any repairs finished, the Union's initial advances in 1869 reveal just how much stronger the Union is economically than the South. The Union has replaced its losses, improved its weaponry, and learned well from its mistakes in the previous war. The Confederacy, on the other hand, is broke, unable to fully repair itself and still faced with a hostile internal threat.

This war is a crusade to reunite the Union and Abolish Slavery. Meanwhile, the Confederacy is struggling to hold to the idea of slavery as a positive good. Forrest himself is a slave merchant, as committed to that cause as Jefferson Davis. As the situation grows more desperate, the Confederate Propaganda grows increasingly shrill about the "Right Nature of God".

The second round of the Civil War has a lot of the best Union commanders still in ranks, although I've suggested that Chamberlain would have gone into politics after his repeated injuries. Meanwhile, Robert E. Lee has died and Confederate command is perhaps equal.

The fortunes of war lead to repeated defeats for the Confederates, who face more frontage than the previous conflict, fewer men to do it, and a dedicated fifth column in terms of the slave system. Forrest flees with a bunch of precious metals to Brazil in 1872, where he lives out his life in exile. A series of trials begin for the highest traitors to the Union, amongst them Jefferson Davis, John C. Breckinridge, Forrest himself in absentia, and other figures like Judah Benjamin, Alexander Stephens, and most governors who decided to secede.

This makes for interesting viewing, although President Chamberlain commutes executions for those found deserving of that fate to life imprisonment.

The OTLish direction of reformers heading South to try to help the free blacks and build a new direction for the region has federal support under a tough reconstruction system that enfranchises former slaves. With no Forest, there is no KKK, but several things LIKE it do get repeatedly stamped out.

The historical narrative is clear: Slavery sunk the South. They can't win hearts and minds around the world for their cause, they can't win peace at home, they can't even win the limited normalcy that existed pre-1850. With former slaves serving an indispensable role in keeping the pressure on the rebels, they're due a cut of the victory. It will be deeply resented and likely one of the great antagonisms into 1900, but the cause has failed.

Many slaves died as brutal means were applied against their rebellions. Many were injured as a result of the ongoing war. But post-war, they get a better deal; guaranteed citizenship, state governments that use their power as a bloc in the era of reconstruction to build a new order, and also the option to head west.
===

Native Americans are still in serious trouble, eight years delay to the contrary. The issue isn't so much Stand Watie and pro-Confederate Indians; it's the very OTLish concern of politically powerless minorities having stuff that other people want.

The PoD also doesn't stop the likes of John Chivington from killing innocent Indians, although it would reroll the Indian wars of the 1870s a bit. The same problems remain, and things probably get very ugly.

The upshot is the USA may be somewhat less racist in the long run, if Reconstruction is forced to work instead of being called off for political reasons. But Indians had almost nothing going for them in OTL all the way to the time of FDR. It's not implausible that things get better earlier, but wanton massacres are still in the lineup.

===

All told, I think the likeliest outcome of a narrow confederate victory is a quick sequel and a decisive defeat. There are many new heroes; there are many dead zeroes.

George Armstrong Custer doesn't die to a giant band of plains Indians.
Thomas Edison is of age to serve in the Union army.
Presidents Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Harrison and McKinley were all military men in the Civil War; each of their fortunes is on the dice.

The world very quickly leaves OTL in favor of its own direction.

Banned

If you don't turn this into a TL ASAP.:mad::p

I would LOVE to se you do this as a TL.

Double

Could the Republican controlled Congress start an impeachment hearing for some reason or another?

The US House of Representatives can impeach the POTUS for square dancing in a roundhouse, as we have seen in recent years.:rolleyes:

Its the Senate Trial that counts.

Absolutely, and I'm sure the radicals, like Thaddeus Stevens, would try if they got a pretext for it. ("Treason," anyone?) The problem is that conviction requires two-thirds of the Senate. Now in OTL, the Republicans held a two-thirds majority... but even with that, enough Senators decided the harges against Johnson were bunk that his impeachment failed. If Lincoln is defeated TTL, I'm sure they wouldn't even have their nominal majority.

Andrew Johnson survived by one vote. If Pendleton starts giving away the store, you could see War Democrats "jumping ship" to Convict. In an ATL, Impeachment and Trial would almost be inevitable, however it turns out.
 
In this TL France is distracted, Palmerston is dead, Maximilliano is most likely dead (even Pendleton wouldn't be able to avoid supporting Benito Juarez), and the Great Reform Act of 1867 (the one with REAL teeth in it) is passed. No way do the British and French Empires help the Confederacy now. It might even be possible that President Chase could count on financial support from London in the form of low interest loans, and military support in the form of discount prices on top rate British army hardware. And no more Alabama's. The blockade this time will be total;. Throw in US Gatling guns too...:eek:
 
It makes a lot of sense, I've always believed the best thing the CSA could've done if they won would be to eventually reunite, whether on good terms or bad.
 
It makes a lot of sense, I've always believed the best thing the CSA could've done if they won would be to eventually reunite, whether on good terms or bad.

Except if the Slavocrats were logical, they wouldn't have manipulated Secession. It wasn't about Slavery. They could live with Gradual Emancipation, Compensation, share-cropping, Jim Crow-styled societies, and the like.

What they wouldn't give up was Chattel Slavery.:mad:
 
Only problem I have is the old 'President Nathaniel Bedford Forrest' meme--Forrest is just too much of a new man for the Powers To Be in Richmond to let take the top seat. No, Forrest is going to be a sort of semi-populist nuisance for whatever slavocrat takes the main seat. That man will be one of the Good Ol' Boys who were cluttering up Washington prior to the Civil War.

Like Breckinridge, for example.
 
Pendleton may or may not survive his Presidency, which is likely to be viewed as a disaster. By 1866, Republicans have retaken the House of Representatives and slavery is going to be killed by Constitutional amendment either with Pendleton in office, or quite possibly after his death in office, or perhaps after his term ends.

The thing is, the Civil War doesn't really end, it just stops being a formal conflict. Abolitionists want to continue the war, but if they can't officially do that, they'll join what is likely a full scale insurgency inside the Confederacy itself.

The Election of Salmon Chase to the Presidency in 1868 probably means a re-ignition of the Civil War; and its a phase that goes very well for the Union. By 1872, Chase is re-elected with the great reunion of the United States as a personal glory, but doesn't live that long before he himself dies in office. His Vice President, one of the heroes of Gettysburg, Joshua Chamberlain, assumes the Presidency in May 1873.

Reconstruction by this point is a fundamentally different issue than in 1865. The Civil War simply went through a series of phases between war, guerrilla war, and redeclared war--and a large part of it is USCTs, Contrabands, Unionists and Abolitionists. There's no Lincoln even beginning to consider a moderate approach to reconstruction. The slaves are freed, guaranteed rights by Constitutional Amendments, and Confederate rebellions are stamped out.

No Jim Crow, as the freed slaves deserve a lot of recognition for their role in keeping the Union together. But there are confederate rebellions into 1900 as the Republicans hold power for a whole generation. It's even possible that the Democrats, tarred by Pendleton, wind up disappearing as a force for national politics and a different party of labor unions and poor farmers emerges.

===

The Confederacy's woes don't end at the peace table; Pendleton can order US troops out of its territory. But he can't order contraband's back on his chains and regaining control of locations like Atlanta, New Orleans and Montgomery will mean fighting ex-slaves by the thousand.

Nor can Pendleton stop Unionist and Abolitionists from supplying those contrabands and attempting to fan larger rebellions. This will also mean things like Louisiana attempting to counter-secede from the confederacy as New Orleans would be occupied, for the moment, by the same--and with some hope of getting the USA to back them, as the Mississippi is at stake.

This all means continued military action is necessary. Slavery can be reinstated, but nothing less than a major military campaign from a razed Atlanta to New Orleans.

Jefferson Davis leaves office facing serious issues of debt, internal security, and a broken economy. Unable to demobilize his army, struggling to rebuild when the labor supply is in open rebellion, and probably facing some horrible spiral of taxes, inflation and unsustainable finances, Davis can at least claim that he won the war.

His successor, Nathan Bedford Forrest, is initially the right man at the right time. Able to gain the buy-in of poor whites as a man who clawed his way to the top, Forrest is a force for Confederate solidarity in the ongoing attempt to reenslave free blacks, chop out Unionists, and restore order. But he doesn't have time.

Pendleton (or his successor, if he is killed in office) gets the boot in 1868. President Salmon Chase takes office, and quickly issues at first demands, before upping the ante to an ultimatum: Unionist territory inside Confederate borders belongs to the Union.

It's a darn fine mess for a nation that claims that it has the right to secede over states' rights to deny the same on its own, and these territories (Northern Alabama, North Texas, the Appalachians) also include solid defensive ground.

Forrest refuses. To accept would essentially spell the end of the Confederacy piecemeal, and he knows it. He could consider a foreign alliance, but the UK probably prefers the Union over the Confederacy and Bismarck's Prussia is kicking Napoleon III across the board. No one is offering.

With the Confederacy barely having any repairs finished, the Union's initial advances in 1869 reveal just how much stronger the Union is economically than the South. The Union has replaced its losses, improved its weaponry, and learned well from its mistakes in the previous war. The Confederacy, on the other hand, is broke, unable to fully repair itself and still faced with a hostile internal threat.

This war is a crusade to reunite the Union and Abolish Slavery. Meanwhile, the Confederacy is struggling to hold to the idea of slavery as a positive good. Forrest himself is a slave merchant, as committed to that cause as Jefferson Davis. As the situation grows more desperate, the Confederate Propaganda grows increasingly shrill about the "Right Nature of God".

The second round of the Civil War has a lot of the best Union commanders still in ranks, although I've suggested that Chamberlain would have gone into politics after his repeated injuries. Meanwhile, Robert E. Lee has died and Confederate command is perhaps equal.

The fortunes of war lead to repeated defeats for the Confederates, who face more frontage than the previous conflict, fewer men to do it, and a dedicated fifth column in terms of the slave system. Forrest flees with a bunch of precious metals to Brazil in 1872, where he lives out his life in exile. A series of trials begin for the highest traitors to the Union, amongst them Jefferson Davis, John C. Breckinridge, Forrest himself in absentia, and other figures like Judah Benjamin, Alexander Stephens, and most governors who decided to secede.

This makes for interesting viewing, although President Chamberlain commutes executions for those found deserving of that fate to life imprisonment.

The OTLish direction of reformers heading South to try to help the free blacks and build a new direction for the region has federal support under a tough reconstruction system that enfranchises former slaves. With no Forest, there is no KKK, but several things LIKE it do get repeatedly stamped out.

The historical narrative is clear: Slavery sunk the South. They can't win hearts and minds around the world for their cause, they can't win peace at home, they can't even win the limited normalcy that existed pre-1850. With former slaves serving an indispensable role in keeping the pressure on the rebels, they're due a cut of the victory. It will be deeply resented and likely one of the great antagonisms into 1900, but the cause has failed.

Many slaves died as brutal means were applied against their rebellions. Many were injured as a result of the ongoing war. But post-war, they get a better deal; guaranteed citizenship, state governments that use their power as a bloc in the era of reconstruction to build a new order, and also the option to head west.
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Native Americans are still in serious trouble, eight years delay to the contrary. The issue isn't so much Stand Watie and pro-Confederate Indians; it's the very OTLish concern of politically powerless minorities having stuff that other people want.

The PoD also doesn't stop the likes of John Chivington from killing innocent Indians, although it would reroll the Indian wars of the 1870s a bit. The same problems remain, and things probably get very ugly.

The upshot is the USA may be somewhat less racist in the long run, if Reconstruction is forced to work instead of being called off for political reasons. But Indians had almost nothing going for them in OTL all the way to the time of FDR. It's not implausible that things get better earlier, but wanton massacres are still in the lineup.

===

All told, I think the likeliest outcome of a narrow confederate victory is a quick sequel and a decisive defeat. There are many new heroes; there are many dead zeroes.

George Armstrong Custer doesn't die to a giant band of plains Indians.
Thomas Edison is of age to serve in the Union army.
Presidents Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Harrison and McKinley were all military men in the Civil War; each of their fortunes is on the dice.

The world very quickly leaves OTL in favor of its own direction.

I'll add my voice to the crowd calling for a TL based on this, it sounds amazing. Much much better than the "Southern Canada" CSA-wins meme that seems endemic to the Pre-1900 board.
 
In March, newly-elected President Pendleton signs a peace accord with the Confederacy. Virginia (sans West Virginia), North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida (sans the Florida Keys) Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas would be part of the new CSA. Tennessee would remain in the Union, and the Mississippi would be internationalized, with any attempt to close it to Union trade being construed as a declaration of war.

As I always mention when CSA victory timelines occur, the US is going to demand a lot more than just Tennessee and West Virginia by 1865. This peace treaty gives up all Union occupied territory in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia plus all the ports occupied. This is not insubstantial.

It is one thing to say that US won't pursue further attacks and agree to a peace, and another to completely abandon most of the gains made in the previous 4 years which is substantial.

Here is OTL end of 1864 frontlines which is more or less what Pendelton must deal with in 1865 sans Savannah.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_American_Civil_War_in_1864.svg

The Union controls most of Arkansas, Louisiana, and Mississippi. It also controls northern Alabama which is a hotbed of Unionist sentiment.

Minimum the US is going to control the Mississippi River and New Orleans. No "internationalization," although it would likely guarantee CSA access if any Confederate territory bordered it. Boys in Blue are all over it, and it is a prime US war aim to control that river. It will not be given up. That likely means the US won't agree to any deal that does not return Arkansas and Louisiana at minimum. The US will likely also insist on creation of a pro-Union "North Alabama".

Mississippi is more of a wildcard. US might insist on all of the state, or agree to take only the northern half which it will combine with northern Alabama. Since Atlanta is taken, US may even insist on keeping NW Georgia whose Appalachian population probably shares the pro-Union sentiments the rest of Appalachia had. It all depends on what US will agree to withdraw its forces from in eturn for the land the Confederates must evacuate from AR and LA.
 
  1. Only problem I have is the old 'President Nathaniel Bedford Forrest' meme--Forrest is just too much of a new man for the Powers To Be in Richmond to let take the top seat. No, Forrest is going to be a sort of semi-populist nuisance for whatever slavocrat takes the main seat. That man will be one of the Good Ol' Boys who were cluttering up Washington prior to the Civil War.
Like Breckinridge, for example.

First of all, this is quite the chorus of support for my ideas. I might very well try to pluck at this, although I have other projects that take up a lot of my time.

As for this particular idea, of Forrest taking over:

  1. The previous suggestion, Breckinridge, ignores the man's origins as a Kentuckian. He's got no local machinery to win the Confederate Office.
    1. Breckenridge is essentially a moderate who probably sees the Confederate situation as hopeless in ATL 1868.
  2. Forrest is a good choice to "carry on the fight". He'd have a shot of turning the Confederate Army into a means to keep the nation together.
    1. Meme-worthy, sure. But I think the second president of the CSA has to be a soldier or the whole thing goes down.
  3. The ATL situation in 1868 will be bad to bleak. If an "Old Planter Aristocrat" takes office next, how does it gain the buy-in of poor whites? Their sacrifice has left them in a nation with at best a guerrilla insurgency, if not its own internal civil war. They don't own slaves, they've actually been badly harmed by the lack of Southron industrialization and urbanization. What's in this for them?
    1. And if there's nothing in it for them, what stops the CSA from simply collapsing on its own or even inviting the USA to "Restore Order?" after a coup or other ousting?
Scenarios of the Confederacy getting so busted domestically that poor whites beg for peace with emancipation instead of war and slavery are plausible. Scenarios in which Confederate Leaders realize that the game is over and that they can't win are plausible too.

Forrest mostly ensures that there will be another few years left in the Confederacy. If President Alexander Stephens probably accepts Chase's demands, leading to the wholesale collapse of the CSA behind the shield of unionists, abolitionists, and contrabands themselves launching countersecessions.

President Robert Toombs goes blind from alcoholism.
President Judah Benjamin is extremely unlikely, as his religion (Jewish) will get raised.
President Zebulon Vance probably accepts Chase's Demands.

I could go on with this. The simple answer is that the CSA is likely to self-destruct after Davis leaves office; it can be badly, it can be a peaceful surrender, but it's going down.
 
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