Fearless Leader
Donor
So what if his 3 ships run into a gale and sink like stones? Who discovers the new world? What would it look like?
WI Columbus Fails
- Thread starter Fearless Leader
- Start date
David S Poepoe
Banned
Fearless Leader said:
I would think it would look pretty much the same, two major continents connected by a isthmus. I suspect that the ancestors of the American Indians would still be the first to inhabit the new lands. However, there would be different place names.
Well, if Columbus doesn't make it its pretty likely that Prince Madoc or St. Brendan would. Theres always the Chinese to consider, if one has to believe in a Columbus-centric world. I guess its really whatever floats your Ra or Kon-Tiki. Of course, Ignatius Donnally will contend that the Atlanteans knew about the Americas ages ago.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Brendan, Ohio? Vespuccian drug cartels??
A gale may not be necessary. Columbus was shadowed by Portuguese ships until some miles past the Azores. The Portuguese were rumored to have discovered Brazil only recently. If they had then why they didn't sink an Italian working for the Spanish is mysterious.
If indeed the Portuguese knew of America they were probably the best ones to keep it secret. Columbus' main discovery was the fact that the easiest passage across the Atlantic was caught by going far South before turning West and the Portuguese Azores are smack in the middle of it.
If some theorists are right, then the Age of Discovery was fueled more by population and its need to expand than anything else and the discovery of America sometime before 1600 was inevitable. On the other hand, it can be argued that the increase in European population, as well as the better boats, the compass, navigation etc. were all driven more by America's discovery than the other way around. Could Portugal, maybe with Spain as an ally, have kept America a secret until 1700? How and how much would this affect then decline? if it happened at all.
A gale may not be necessary. Columbus was shadowed by Portuguese ships until some miles past the Azores. The Portuguese were rumored to have discovered Brazil only recently. If they had then why they didn't sink an Italian working for the Spanish is mysterious.
If indeed the Portuguese knew of America they were probably the best ones to keep it secret. Columbus' main discovery was the fact that the easiest passage across the Atlantic was caught by going far South before turning West and the Portuguese Azores are smack in the middle of it.
If some theorists are right, then the Age of Discovery was fueled more by population and its need to expand than anything else and the discovery of America sometime before 1600 was inevitable. On the other hand, it can be argued that the increase in European population, as well as the better boats, the compass, navigation etc. were all driven more by America's discovery than the other way around. Could Portugal, maybe with Spain as an ally, have kept America a secret until 1700? How and how much would this affect then decline? if it happened at all.
Welsh or Breton fishermen? John Cabot who arrived in Newfoundland only months after Columbus 'discovered' the Caribean? Who can say?
The Portugese spotted Brazil within a few years of Chris geting to the Carib, and Cabot would shortly confirm the land sighting of various Welsh and Breton fisherfolk so Europe tripping over the Americas at this point was inevitable.Fearless Leader said:
The signifigance of Columbus was getting Castille within striking range of the Gold of MesoAmerica, however, is a major factor. It turned the rather backwards center of Iberia into the senior partner of the Spanish Crowns (Aragon had the money until this point) and provided considerable wealth for the Hapsburgs to blow on various wars.
HTG
htgriffin said:
I definitely agree. The discovery of America by Europeans was inevitable at that time. However, very probably, a failure of Columbus would have meant that Spain never played an important role in colonisation and exploration. Actually, the Columbus expedition was the first substantial expedition made by Spain, and it was partly privately funded (the Pinzon brothers). It is unlikely that Spain would have sent a second expedition soon.
This is completely different to Portugal that had been making expeditions down the African coast since about 1430, most of them government supported. This makes the Portuguese (probably Diaz) the hottest candidates to discover South America.
Maybe someone should invest the time to work out that timeline further. It could be very promising:
- what about the role of the Habsburgs in the coming centuries?
- when would contact with Aztecs and Inka be made, and with what results?
- what would happen in the Netherlands without American gold to finance Spanish troops?
- what about England and France?
- might Spain and Portugal be unified under the Portuguese instead of the Spanish flag in the 16th century?
PS: and of course, there would never be a "Columbia"...
IIRC Cabot was the first true European discoverer of America (apart from the vikings) as he actually landed on the mainland of north America whilst the Spannish were still messing around in the Caribean
Columbus failing wouldn't have made much difference, Cabot went soon after- Henry VII may not even have heard of Columbus' succesful voyage when he sent Cabot and the way the Portugese went around Africa meant that sooner or later they would hit Brazil if they hadn't already.
Columbus failing wouldn't have made much difference, Cabot went soon after- Henry VII may not even have heard of Columbus' succesful voyage when he sent Cabot and the way the Portugese went around Africa meant that sooner or later they would hit Brazil if they hadn't already.
Straha came up with a scenario of the Spanish turning their "faith-based conquest machine" on North Africa (I expanded it in my story-idea file to be a Crusade against the Barbary Pirates) and continuing their control over southern Italy and Sicily (the "Aragonese Empire"), but without New World gold, they'd have to let the Netherlands go much earlier than in OTL. Without the New World gold, the Hapsburgs might not be even considered this terrible threat to the freedom of other European states...there might not be coalitions of England, the Netherlands, etc.
Perhaps a more "privatized" New World colonization enterprise, much like the stuff that went on the "Anglo-Saxon" TL. You'd have lots of little states set up by deposed noble families, mercantile colonies, etc. Probably more of the Indian population would survive...they'd still have to worry about diseases, but there'd be few if any organized efforts to enslave them or drive them off their lands with big conquering States being out of the picture.
Methinks the Aztecs and Inca would survive as large states, though the plagues would hurt them quite a bit and might enable pirates, adventurers, etc to nibble away territory and trading privileges and they like while they're weakened. They might get their hands on European inventions (writing, guns, horses) and modernize.
On the matter of religion, you'd get hordes of missionaries going to convert the natives, and since there'd be little or no forcible conversion (no State apparatus to impose this), you'd probably have larger surviving pagan populations AND less doctrinal syncretism as a result of people continuing to practice the old religion while attending the conqueror's religious services (for example, I read in a National Geographic about a Catholic festival in Guatemala where the people worshipping an Indian stone idol that had a Spanish name).
Of course, I think the Islamic powers will eventually get involved somehow...there's no overweening State presence like the Spanish to keep them out. The "A-S" timeline has a great big hunk of South America going Islamic, for example. I think that result isn't likely with the colonization beginning in 1500 or so (Grenada is gone, Morocco is likely to be fending off the Spanish, and the Ottomans are too far from the Straits to get out into the Atlantic), but some outposts and small states might result.
Perhaps a more "privatized" New World colonization enterprise, much like the stuff that went on the "Anglo-Saxon" TL. You'd have lots of little states set up by deposed noble families, mercantile colonies, etc. Probably more of the Indian population would survive...they'd still have to worry about diseases, but there'd be few if any organized efforts to enslave them or drive them off their lands with big conquering States being out of the picture.
Methinks the Aztecs and Inca would survive as large states, though the plagues would hurt them quite a bit and might enable pirates, adventurers, etc to nibble away territory and trading privileges and they like while they're weakened. They might get their hands on European inventions (writing, guns, horses) and modernize.
On the matter of religion, you'd get hordes of missionaries going to convert the natives, and since there'd be little or no forcible conversion (no State apparatus to impose this), you'd probably have larger surviving pagan populations AND less doctrinal syncretism as a result of people continuing to practice the old religion while attending the conqueror's religious services (for example, I read in a National Geographic about a Catholic festival in Guatemala where the people worshipping an Indian stone idol that had a Spanish name).
Of course, I think the Islamic powers will eventually get involved somehow...there's no overweening State presence like the Spanish to keep them out. The "A-S" timeline has a great big hunk of South America going Islamic, for example. I think that result isn't likely with the colonization beginning in 1500 or so (Grenada is gone, Morocco is likely to be fending off the Spanish, and the Ottomans are too far from the Straits to get out into the Atlantic), but some outposts and small states might result.
If Europe's first clear contact with the Americas happens at Brazil, or Newfoundland, or both at about the same time, it's probably going to take considerably longer for the Europeans to reach the richest, most developed areas of the "New World", in Mexico, Central America, and the Andes. This might give groups like the Inca, Aztecs, and Maya more time to "prepare" - ie, learning that there are strange new people with strange new technologies coming, going through the first waves of disease and partially recovering their population base, etc.
Peter said:
basque Whalers too, the Newfoundland banks were HUGE, the first colonial American staple (apart from silver).
Paul Spring said:
the other consequence would be much lower European interest in the Americas, the fact that vast, rich empires had been hit on was a big part of people getting interested in the continents.
European interest might not get to the point where really large scale colonisation efforts are even attempted until the seventeenth century, although that is a worst case scenario.
Fearless Leader
Donor
Ok so If columbus doesn't discover the new world then which European nation does? Portugal? England? France....
Probably all of the above, insofar as thier nationals making landfall on various coasts and bothering to note same.Fearless Leader said:
The real question is who bothers to settle along OTL's Newfoundland, Gulf of St Lawrence, and/or Brazilian northeast... and how long does it take for someone to trip over the Aztecs/Incas and get reliable word back to Europe?
HTG
Dont forget the fur trade of the Northeast. That would be ample reason for at least one european nation or company to explor or at least stay on.