AH: Preventing the romans from uniting Italy after 323 BC
- Thread starter Grouchio
- Start date
So have a POD involving the Samnite General Gaius Pontius listening to his father Herrenius instead of taking the middle way, allowing the Samnites to slaughter the Romans just like Herrenius desired and predicted. Sound about right?
This is brilliant. I really want someone to do this. I can collaborate.
Once they would've killed all the Romans, to the last man, then they could've took advantage of this and they would've attacked Campania, wich would've fallen with little effort, I suppose, and eventually target Rome itself. They probably would have it easy till the gates of Rome.
"Gaius Pontius ad portas"
Then maybe they ask for Etruscan intervention, the Samnites attack Rome from the south, the Etruscans from the north. Rome would likely be defeated and the boot would be divided between Etruscans and Samnites.
Then cold war between Samnites and Etruscans, escalation (just like in the Samnite Wars) and, likely, Samnite victory and hegemony, should the Etruscans not copy the Samnite tactics, like Rome did.
Then God-knows what would happen.
Maybe an Italian ethnic identity limited only to the south. Believe it or not, the first Italians were the Greeks from Calabria and, by the time of the Samnite Wars, all Oscan-speaking peoples were also Italians. Then the Romans adopted the term and extended the term to central Italians (including themselves) and, eventually, on those Gauls up in Milan.
"Gaius Pontius ad portas"
Then maybe they ask for Etruscan intervention, the Samnites attack Rome from the south, the Etruscans from the north. Rome would likely be defeated and the boot would be divided between Etruscans and Samnites.
Then cold war between Samnites and Etruscans, escalation (just like in the Samnite Wars) and, likely, Samnite victory and hegemony, should the Etruscans not copy the Samnite tactics, like Rome did.
Then God-knows what would happen.
Maybe an Italian ethnic identity limited only to the south. Believe it or not, the first Italians were the Greeks from Calabria and, by the time of the Samnite Wars, all Oscan-speaking peoples were also Italians. Then the Romans adopted the term and extended the term to central Italians (including themselves) and, eventually, on those Gauls up in Milan.
Taking Rome isn't gonna be that easy...Caudine Forks would be the best POD if you want the Italian powers to stop Rome, but the best is probably someone (not necessarily Pyrrhus but he definitely could) come from one of the successor states to kick some Roman butt.
Anyway, back to Caudine Fork: It's not going to assure victory itself. Rome doesn't have the manpower of all of Italy yet, but they certainly have a lot of manpower still. The Samnites would have an easy time of it for awhile, likely gaining ground in Campania as a result of a treaty shortly afterward, but they had been begging for peace before Caudine Forks, so its not like they are super strong at this point.
Still though, if we give the Samnites the benefit of the doubt, they take all of Campania and end up in Latium. An alliance with several Etruscan Cities ad perhaps some Gauls (similar to what lead to the 3rd Samnite War) could make a go at Rome, but I highly doubt they'd take it. The Servian Walls are no pushover (remember, Rome was sacked before they had been built) and regardless I think the Samnites would be content with a treaty granting them Campania.
And then the whole thing resumes anew years later.
EDIT: Also, Altzec, you are treating the Etruscan League like a single united nation. They were far from it, often at war with themselves as much as with foreign powers. Most of the cities looked out just for themselves and would at times even ally with other powers against another Etruscan city. The Etruscan league was really only in name only. Hence the other Etruscan cities did nothing when Veii was being besieged by Rome, content to see a rival Etruscan city be knocked down.
Anyway, back to Caudine Fork: It's not going to assure victory itself. Rome doesn't have the manpower of all of Italy yet, but they certainly have a lot of manpower still. The Samnites would have an easy time of it for awhile, likely gaining ground in Campania as a result of a treaty shortly afterward, but they had been begging for peace before Caudine Forks, so its not like they are super strong at this point.
Still though, if we give the Samnites the benefit of the doubt, they take all of Campania and end up in Latium. An alliance with several Etruscan Cities ad perhaps some Gauls (similar to what lead to the 3rd Samnite War) could make a go at Rome, but I highly doubt they'd take it. The Servian Walls are no pushover (remember, Rome was sacked before they had been built) and regardless I think the Samnites would be content with a treaty granting them Campania.
And then the whole thing resumes anew years later.
EDIT: Also, Altzec, you are treating the Etruscan League like a single united nation. They were far from it, often at war with themselves as much as with foreign powers. Most of the cities looked out just for themselves and would at times even ally with other powers against another Etruscan city. The Etruscan league was really only in name only. Hence the other Etruscan cities did nothing when Veii was being besieged by Rome, content to see a rival Etruscan city be knocked down.
If the Samnites take Campania after the Caudine Forks and sign a peace right after, Rome will be limited to Latium and some portions of Umbria.
A few generations pass, Rome probably retries and I think it'll be defeated, unless the Campanians rebel against the Samnites (it can happen. The city of Capua was well treated by the Romans, for example). If Rome retries and it fails, the Samnites may just try to end it. They may or may not win the siege.
I read somewhere Gavius Pontius was a friend of the Tarentine dictator and philosopher, Architas. Everything may happen. What if the friendship eventually ends up in having Tarentine engineers or even soldiers to help the Samnite siege?
As for the Etruscans, they weren't a unified entity, they had city-states, sure, but didn't they participate in the Third Samnite War in the Samnite coalition, with the Umbrians, the Samnites and the Gauls?
A few generations pass, Rome probably retries and I think it'll be defeated, unless the Campanians rebel against the Samnites (it can happen. The city of Capua was well treated by the Romans, for example). If Rome retries and it fails, the Samnites may just try to end it. They may or may not win the siege.
I read somewhere Gavius Pontius was a friend of the Tarentine dictator and philosopher, Architas. Everything may happen. What if the friendship eventually ends up in having Tarentine engineers or even soldiers to help the Samnite siege?
As for the Etruscans, they weren't a unified entity, they had city-states, sure, but didn't they participate in the Third Samnite War in the Samnite coalition, with the Umbrians, the Samnites and the Gauls?
Latium still had a large manpower, and it was a lot more united after 348. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Romans are guaranteed to win, but I think it would take defeats in one or two more wars for Rome to be exhausted enough to allow the Samnites to finally take them over (unless the Samnties get lucky in a siege, which is always possible). The key thing I think here is the Latins. The best way to defeat Rome is to get the Latins to turn on them, but that's extremely difficult (it took years of war in Italy waged by Hannibal before some latin allies stopped sending Rome troops for example, and that was more to do with not having men to send).
Definitely possible. Though I think the Tarentines were more inclined to remain strictly neutral and let two enemies of theirs beat themselves to exhaustion. Though if there was any way to get the Tarentines to send the Samnites aid, this would definitely be a good place to start from.
Yeah, I'm not sure if it was the whole Etruscan League but they certainly did unite for that war. It took 100 years of being repeatedly beaten piecemeal by the Romans for them to realize it was unite or die, but they did come to eventually. I agree, it should be easy to get a coalition of some Etruscan city-states to help out the Samnites, just don't expect the Etruscan unity to be permanent once the Romans are crushed.
The Latin factor is a quite difficult one, in fact. Still, we also know Samnites were skilled diplomats, as the Third Samnite War has shown, gathering basically everyone in the peninsula against the Romans. They may or may not succeed in causing a fracture between Rome and the other Latins. There are chances, tho.
Samnites and Tarentines had a Lucanian problem. There, I just gave a basis for Samnite-Tarentine cooperation, wich could be extended to defeating Rome.
Also, there was even a sort of Greek legend that made the Samnites as descendants of Spartans, a political fable, but whatevs. Taras was also a Spartan colony, the only one. Make 2+2 and you get a very good base for Samnite-Tarentine cooperation, wich may even be extended to a relationship similar to that between Rome and Capua.
I guess it'll depend on wheter the Samnites will stop at Rome or not. If they will not look past Rome, to its north, the Etruscans will stay divided, but if the Samnites will go past Rome, then necessity will keep their anti-Roman alliance, now an anti-Samnite alliance, unless there will be Etruscan cities who are disposed to bow their heads.
Well I've been planning the basics for a diadochi timeline for sometime now and that may include cutting Rome down to size around this period. So stay tuned.
Also altzec I agree with you mostly.
Also altzec I agree with you mostly.