Yet Another 'Save the Roman Republic' Thread

We can never go too long without one of these threads. Here's the premise of this one:

Propose reforms to the Roman Constitution (unwritten as it was) in order to stabilize it against the tides of autocracy. Don't feel too constrained by whether or not they'd actually pass, but try to keep to things that would make sense to a Roman. In other words, play the part of Sulla. Ultimately, this will likely require a few features:
1) Unite the interests of the aristocracy and the people to at least some degree, even in the face of no major threats to the Republic (in other words, once Macedon and Carthage are gone).
2) Curb the ambitions of the... ambitious, or better, channel them to productive means. Obviously, the entire point of the Republic was to do this, so its likely to be the hardest one to achieve
3) Tie the Legions to greater loyalty to the government, rather than their general.
4) Though not nearly as necessary, binding outlying populations to the government is very useful.

Here's my proposal, from the perspective of a more Republican-sympathetic Caesar (perhaps one who survives his assassination and is simultaneously humbled and determined to reshape the government, rather than just 'fix' it, with himself on top); though the background doesn't matter as much.

I) The Roman assemblies are reformed to better represent the population. In particular, the voting centuries are reorganized to account for the vast growth of un-landed soldiers, and all assemblies vote in random order, as the tribal assembly was.
- The common people and, most importantly, the soldiers, will now have a greater voice in the assemblies and a legitimate avenue for their political interests.

II) The number of Consuls is increased to three, and they served staggered 3-year terms, one elected every year, with honor and authority increasing incrementally with each year. The terms of the six Praetors is similarly increased to 3 years, and they are similarly staggered, two elected every year (each pair of Praetors will serve as the Urban and Peregrine Praetor, respectively, in their final year). Meanwhile, the minimum age of any magistracy is reduced roughly half a decade, while also reducing the number of years required to wait in between running for the same office (3-5, we'll say, or perhaps represented as at least a full term of governor). Finally, in light of the greater number of Roman provinces by Caesar's day, governorships are opened to Aediles as well as Praetors and Consuls, though the term of a governor is correspondingly increased to 3 years.
- Easing the restrictions upon the magistracies is done to make those same restrictions easier to enforce and reduce the temptation to flaunt the limitations of the Cursus Honorum. Increasing the terms also reduces the desire to run for consecutive terms. Meanwhile, increasing the number of Consuls to three creates a greater check on the power of any one Consul, while the staggering gives each the opportunity to be the First Man in Rome. Then, immediately after, he's sent to a province for 3 years, which should be more than enough to deal with any local military threats, while also getting him out of the day to day politics for quite awhile, and has an added bonus for the local of reducing the inclination for a governor to loot his province. In short, this is a sort of codification of the Triumvirate.

III) The composition of the Senate is required to include a set number of Senators from among the Roman citizenry in each province, with 16 Roman provinces during Caesar's time.
- In addition to consolidating Roman control over outlying provinces and providing an outlet for regional concerns, this also breaks up the solid front that the Senate had against popular politicians. Provincial Senators would likely align themselves to those Magistrates that governed favorably in their province, diffusing power in the Senate, and also prove something of a check on those that governed poorly, diffusing the power of too-greedy governors.

IV) Laws must be approved by both the Senate and an Assembly (or Plebeian Council). Now that the Assemblies themselves are given effective veto power over a law, the Plebeian Tribunes were barred from utilizing their veto against any law that had already won the approval of either the Senate or an Assembly/Council (presumably, the simplest way to accomplish this would be to declare them non-sacrosanct during any debate and vote on such matters).
- Neither the aristocratic Senate nor the democratic Assemblies may act out of concert with the other. Further, the Tribunate was an office open to a multitude of abuses, as is obvious from a cursory review of Roman history, and needed some reigning in.

Alright, have at it. Any proposals/counter proposals?
 
I'm no expert on the rest, but III is absolutely crazy.

During Caesar's time, all of Italia had perhaps 2 or 3 (maybe 4 to 6?) million citizens; most other provinces had a few ten thousands at best, with Macedonia, Asia, Africa province, and Hispania Citerior maybe boasting 100,000.

To give the citizens in these provinces 20 or more times representation than the citizens in Italia just makes no sense at all.

So that just needs to be fixed.
 
Making a real worship of the goddess Roma might help. After all, the soldiers belong to the lower class, which was usually the most pious of the Romans to my knowledge. It's one thing to march on just a city when you are being payed by your general, another to march on a sacred and protected city.
 
your I is effectively reducing the ammount of persons able to become Consuls by 50% ... in Rome they were chosen 2 each year, with reelection possible (at least following the law) after 10 years ... and it was highly unusual to become consul if you hadn't taken every step on the ladder (from Questor over Praetor to Consul) and most often you had to take a few more steps (Aedile, popular Military Tribune and if Plebs Tribune)

Doubt that the Republic is possible to save after Socii War, and frankly the latest that could easily be the POD would be to butterfly the assassination of Marcus Livius Drusus or maybe let him take the longer view accepting that he can't push his changes as hard and fast, and should take it over longer period of time (shelving the citizenship of Italians till later)
 
your I is effectively reducing the ammount of persons able to become Consuls by 50% ... in Rome they were chosen 2 each year, with reelection possible (at least following the law) after 10 years ... and it was highly unusual to become consul if you hadn't taken every step on the ladder (from Questor over Praetor to Consul) and most often you had to take a few more steps (Aedile, popular Military Tribune and if Plebs Tribune)

Yes, but:

1. Reducing the amount of men becoming Consul means competition goes up. Men will vie to be elected and, while some might resort to bribery and extortion, might try to be the best they can be. In this way, the cream will rise to the top. The Late Republic had a chronic problem with a string of boorish, uninspiring men standing for the Consulship and, of course, getting in because there's nobody else.

2. It would be jolly good fun!
 
Kill Marius and Sulla. Without their precedents of marching into the city and forcing their will upon the population, I feel like there would've been much less chance that anyone else would've dared to do so in the future.

Either stop the Roman Legions from becoming full of landless urban people or make it so that they automatically get land upon their return without their general having to lobby for it, making them less dependant on their general.
 
I'm no expert on the rest, but III is absolutely crazy.

During Caesar's time, all of Italia had perhaps 2 or 3 (maybe 4 to 6?) million citizens; most other provinces had a few ten thousands at best, with Macedonia, Asia, Africa province, and Hispania Citerior maybe boasting 100,000.

To give the citizens in these provinces 20 or more times representation than the citizens in Italia just makes no sense at all.

So that just needs to be fixed.

Caesar would never have packed the Senate with his partisans or even, horror of horror, Gallic nobles.

The Senate was not, in any way, a representative body of the population as a whole (hence the name of the government as the Senate *and* the People of Rome). The Senate protected the interests of the elite, while the assemblies (in theory) protected those of the masses.
 
your I is effectively reducing the ammount of persons able to become Consuls by 50% ... in Rome they were chosen 2 each year, with reelection possible (at least following the law) after 10 years ... and it was highly unusual to become consul if you hadn't taken every step on the ladder (from Questor over Praetor to Consul) and most often you had to take a few more steps (Aedile, popular Military Tribune and if Plebs Tribune)

Take an 11 year period. That gives you, presuming people will be obeying the rules, 20-22 different Consuls (with the first Consuls waiting until year 11 to serve again), under the historical system, each serving just 1 year (2, possibly, getting 2 years under their belts).

Under my proposal there are up to 13 Consuls in that time, each serving 3 times as long. Given that very few Romans actually ran for more than a handful of Consulships, even when ignoring the rule about waiting 10 years (pretty much, just the ones we remember like Marius and Caesar; everyone else gets forgotten), we might not have to worry about all that many men trying to run again, particularly if they all know that, of 3 year term, they'll get one to be in the spotlight, above their colleagues. Plus, this basically reduces to a 1/3 the costs of gaining 3 years of Consulship; far less bribes to have to spread around.
 
Kill Marius and Sulla. Without their precedents of marching into the city and forcing their will upon the population, I feel like there would've been much less chance that anyone else would've dared to do so in the future.

Either stop the Roman Legions from becoming full of landless urban people or make it so that they automatically get land upon their return without their general having to lobby for it, making them less dependant on their general.

I agree, but the only way I can imagine stemming the tide of landless urban poor distorting the system is to ban slavery; perhaps just in Italia. This is the reason why I propose fixing the Centuriate Assembly: if the urban poor have a greater voice in the government, they might be a bit more civil and less inclined to pursue extra-legal measures.
 
The Senate was not, in any way, a representative body of the population as a whole (hence the name of the government as the Senate *and* the People of Rome). The Senate protected the interests of the elite, while the assemblies (in theory) protected those of the masses.

Yes, but you're making my point for me.
The Senate and elite lived almost exclusively in Italy; hell, they assassinated Marcus Livius Drusus just to stop the Italians from gaining power in the government. Why would they allow provincial citizens to serve in the Senate? Gaius Marius was from Arpinum, a little more than 100km from Rome, and they called him an Italian Samnite who knew no Greek. How would they react to the descendant of a colonist in Carthago Nova, or Pella, or Samos?
The Senate would definitely like to stay elite, and would not allow Senators from the provinces, who had few connections and got the same voice while representing so few people (read: so little money and business interests).

Killing Marius before the war with the Germans means the Germans probably destroy Rome, or somebody else gets his idea and enlists the proletarii. Killing Marius after the war has no effect; the precedent is already set.
 
Yes, but you're making my point for me.
The Senate and elite lived almost exclusively in Italy; hell, they assassinated Marcus Livius Drusus just to stop the Italians from gaining power in the government. Why would they allow provincial citizens to serve in the Senate? Gaius Marius was from Arpinum, a little more than 100km from Rome, and they called him an Italian Samnite who knew no Greek. How would they react to the descendant of a colonist in Carthago Nova, or Pella, or Samos?
The Senate would definitely like to stay elite, and would not allow Senators from the provinces, who had few connections and got the same voice while representing so few people (read: so little money and business interests).

Killing Marius before the war with the Germans means the Germans probably destroy Rome, or somebody else gets his idea and enlists the proletarii. Killing Marius after the war has no effect; the precedent is already set.

Except that Caesar did, in fact, appoint provincial Senators. This is merely a codification of it and isolation of said appointment from the favor of a popular charismatic. Won't mean they'll like it, but its doable.
 
Still ... given that Ceasar is very much likely to be to late for the Republic to survirve, thats not really all that relevant in the context of doing it earlier.

IMO the Roman Republic as a pseudo-democratic entry was death rowed somewhere between the Cimbrian War (i'd say 105BC Battle of Arausio) and the end of Socii war
 
I happen to agree 100% that we can mark the Marian era as the death knell of the Republic. That said, I'm more interested what reforms would work, rather than the logistics of getting them enacted, as indicated in the first post.
 
Except that Caesar did, in fact, appoint provincial Senators. This is merely a codification of it and isolation of said appointment from the favor of a popular charismatic. Won't mean they'll like it, but its doable.

Ah, I must have misunderstood you.

I thought you meant that each province (including Italy) would have the same number of Senators, this meaning that almost 94% (15/16) of the Senators aren't even from Italy.

Yes then, I agree. Appointing honest, important citizens from the provinces to the Senate would definitely help. For one (as I think you stated), the provincial Senators would make sure to curb extortion, bribery, and bad governorships, especially where their provinces are concerned. Bad governorship = a poor province, not good for the provincials' business and clients.
 
I happen to agree 100% that we can mark the Marian era as the death knell of the Republic. That said, I'm more interested what reforms would work, rather than the logistics of getting them enacted, as indicated in the first post.

Also, NotYetRegistered has a good idea with veterans automatically gaining land after retirement. While the Optimates fought tooth and nail against this before they saw its effectiveness, and even Caesar had to fight hard to give his veterans land, a proper POD could affect this and enable every head count legion to get land after discharge.

They would be loyal to their general during service, because if he is good to them, they gain much loot and prestige; a "bad" general could keep all the loot for himself, and so they would want to keep the "good" man.
Even after service they might rise up for him if he is loved enough (like Caesar was); however, there is less of an obligation to him. Yes, you gained loot under the Good Man; yes, he was a great general and never needlessly put you in harm's way; yes, you had fun. Still, your future wealth and security were ensured by the Senate, not by him. They gave the land willingly.

Then you could have problems with the Senate not wanting to give up prime land, or land in Italy. It's a lot harder farming 100 iugera of tough land than 10 iugera of fertile land; veterans in shitty regions could be enticed by a general's promise of good fertile land in Italy, close to politics, where they can travel to Rome, enjoy themselves, and even vote (a thing almost no non-wealthy citizens outside of Italy ever got to do).
 
The problem with automatically ensuring land grants was that there wasn't enough land to go around all the time. That is the exact problem Octavian ran into during the Second Triumvirate, and it forced him to reinstate proscriptions. Codifying a guarantee of land for veterans requires one thing: constant war; either against foreigners or, once someone realizes its unsustainable, against Rome.
 
Ah, I must have misunderstood you.

I thought you meant that each province (including Italy) would have the same number of Senators, this meaning that almost 94% (15/16) of the Senators aren't even from Italy.

Yes then, I agree. Appointing honest, important citizens from the provinces to the Senate would definitely help. For one (as I think you stated), the provincial Senators would make sure to curb extortion, bribery, and bad governorships, especially where their provinces are concerned. Bad governorship = a poor province, not good for the provincials' business and clients.

Remember that, even into the bulk of the Imperial period, Italy was not a province (hell, it wasn't until Octavian that it was even taxed). The Senate as I envision would be composed of probably around 300 men, the usual number for the Republic. Assuming 16 provinces, I'm thinking 32 of them would be Provincial Senators (two each simply so that governors would have twice as much trouble just bribing them off), while the remaining 268 would be the usual composition of ex-Magistrates and the super rich Romans (though, ideally, I'd love for it to be strictly ex-Magistrates).
 
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