In OTL, Germanic tribes, such as the Jutes, Angles, and Saxons controlled Jutland and the North Sea Coast, and migrated to Britain from there. The slavic peoples remained east. But what if the Slavs had migrated into Jutland, pushing the Germanics south and north? From there, what if the Slavs had set sail, in a fashion such as the Germans, towords Brittania and managed to establish a foothold there? How would history play out in the aftermath of that event?
Challenge: Slavic Jutland/Britain
- Thread starter Baconheimer
- Start date
These Slavs would still have to contend with the Danes and Saxons still in the area who had relatively dense population at the time. Not to mention, why would they continue traveling west to Britain?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
The Slavs who do end in Britain might become assimilated into the local population there though.
Depending on the situation. Based on the events on the Adriatic and the Aegean and partially on the Baltic, Slavs on the North sea could join the general "Viking" phenomenon. So one could have Norse, Danish, Swedish, Jutish, Frisian, Vendish, Delminish, Sorbish "Vikings" making their impact on the Isles creating an even more multicultural Britain from as early as late 9th century. Just imagine Britain with both Celtic, Germanic and Slavic entities and culture with a dash of Romance from the south.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Would the reverse be true if we're having Vikings of a different sort (ie: Britannic tribes) in addition to Norse, Danes, Swedes, etc, move eastwards into OTL Russia?
Taht would be quite interesting. I wonder if the Slavs in Britain would adopt the Latin Alphabet, or maybe even some new one?
Given the overwhelming Romano-Celtic and Germanic influence already established in Britain by then, I'd say they'd use a modified Latin alphabet like that of Polish or Czech.
FWIW, I don't see a Slavic influence surviving in Britain to any overt degree (maybe like that of the Jutes IOTL at best). Jutland, however, may be another story depending on how the Folks-Wandering plays out; perhaps a Slavicized Pomerania/Jutland continuum could exist, with the Ingvaeonic Saxons, Jutes and Frisians displacing either to Britain or further south-west?
It is highly unlikely/nigh impossible to have a Britonic "Vikings" going to OTL Russia.
As far as script is concerned it would depend on the time of the movement. They would most likely use latin script though using modified runes or Glagolitic once it gets introduced by Konstantin and Method to central european Slavs and than dispersed is not that unlikely.
As far as script is concerned it would depend on the time of the movement. They would most likely use latin script though using modified runes or Glagolitic once it gets introduced by Konstantin and Method to central european Slavs and than dispersed is not that unlikely.
Maybe if the Slavs and Balts mainly went West, you could have a Finno-Ugric and Iranian Russia that the Slavs and Germans are the vikings for later.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Or Alanic, for that matter. IOTL the Slavs did control a portion of what is now eastern Germany on the right bank of the Oder River, with Berlin being called Berlobog at one point.
For some reason,all the talk in this thread of more westward Slavic migration reminds me of Thermopylae's TL Coronation of the Hun*. Granted, that was pretty much a Slavicized Western Europe in general, but I think the principle counts nonetheless in terms of how Jutland, and perhaps Britain, would evolve.
*Ah, that thread...so many nits to pick and comments to make, where there not risk of the Lock-Hammer being dropped
*Ah, that thread...so many nits to pick and comments to make, where there not risk of the Lock-Hammer being dropped
It would be interesting, though, to see if there is some residual Slavic influence - say, English retaining its fully-fledged case system (with a stronger basis for the instrumental and locative cases), for example?
The Slavics were never, to my knowledge, known as a seafaring people til Peter The Great imported wholesale Western European persons and skills. Ivan the Terrible used British seagoing merchant fleet, for instance, to dock at the White Sea (Sweden controlled all the Eastern Baltic then, except for a separate and powerful Poland/Lithuania joint country).
Jutland is hard to get to except by sea, though it is possible. Have a wild tribe on the hairy edge go over the brink. I have read that is the more likely situation of the Yugoslavs. Especially around Poland and Western Ukraine, Slavs were known to be rather docile. The word Slave comes from the Germans raiding those villages. By the 5th century, they had enough and were encroaching on Germans, heavily depleted as Germans were from various infighting, drain of going all over western Europe to settle, etc. Sorbs were an example of this, as were the Czechs.
Yugoslavs are probably the most agressive and violent Slavs to this day, though Russians come close behind. Something happened, and probably it was on the wild steppe if memory serves correctly of language studies.
IOTL, weren't they only able to move into those lands once a lot of the earlier Germanic inhabitants had themselves migrated onwards to areas with better climates & soils?
There's actually more historic precedent for this than for Slavs to end up in Britain. British and Gaelic pirates were well known in the North Sea as early as Julius Caesar. Not to mention during the 9th and 10th centuries the Hiberno-Vikings and others who were, essentially British and Irish who adopted Viking sailing and piracy tactics. If the Vikings could sail from North America to Constantinople, why can't the Hiberno-Vikings sail from Dublin to Novgorod?
I am quite aware of the Celtic pirates on the North Sea in late BC early AD. What I meant was that considering the souce/core of the "Viking" phenomenon and its radial (more or less) expansion it would be unlikely for a group originating on the western edge passing through the "core" area to reach the eastern edge of naval travel on its own.
Hiberno-Vikings could end raiding Novgorod from Dublin if they were part of a force that had the ability or the authority to pass through the "core" area, without provoking resistance.
I hope I have managed to convey my thoughts.
Ah, I see what you mean. But consider this: Canute the Great ruled over England, Scotland, Norway, and Denmark. Theoretically, this could allow for ships from the western periphery to go east.
But the issue really comes down to why? The only thing I can think of was an alternate path to Constantinople, but even so, they'd probably be more inclined to take the Mediterranean route just because there is more raiding available.
ingemann
Banned
I could see a Slavic Jutland, but a Slavic Britain is so unlikely that it's borderline ASB. Even in OTL it took a lot of unlikely things for Britain becoming Germanic, if the Roman Empire had collapsed a century later or earlier, Britain would likely be Romance or Celtic talking today. So let ignore that part.
Could Jutland become Wendic, yes it easily could. After large part of the Angles and Jutes had migrated the Danes moved fast in and conquered the remnant population, a crisis among the Danes could have left the Wends room to move in instead.
In fact Jutland north of Schleswig was prime territory for Wendic style farming.
If people look at this map:
The map show the soil quility in Denmark, bluish green is the best one and pale orange is the worst one (the bluish green green give 25 times the wheat as pale orange). Why is this important, because the Slavs with their more primitive agricultural technic prefered the poor soil, because a simple wooden plough could be used in the sandy soil, while the richer loom took a lot more labour and was hard for them to use. So they could relative easy set up a principality up in Jutland.
But in the long term it won't survive, but still it will likely change European history in many ways. First we will se Danes and franks come into conflict later, likely pushing the Vikings (as something more than raiders) if they happens into the future.
Second without a strong Danish kingdom in Jutland and only a weaker Wendic principality, the Frisian will likely settled the entire western coast of Jutland (the Limfjord would be a natural habitat of the Frisians, while the Wends would find it too swampy).
The Danes on the other hand may see the southern Baltic coast as a more natural place to conquer, as it's thinly populated and closer to the main Danish stronghold of Sealand-Scania. Denmark are also likely to have another name, as Denmark was likely original a term for a Danish border principality in Jutland, who later took over the islands (according to Saxo through marriage).
In Britain without the Danish invasions, there will be less push to unify, it will likely happen anyway, but it may happen in a more ad hoch way.
The Slavs on the Jutish heath, even if the Danes, Frisians, Franks or Saxon take over will likely survive until the 19th century as the Wends on Lüneburg heath did, as the conquer will be more interested in the more fertile earth coast and north.
Could Jutland become Wendic, yes it easily could. After large part of the Angles and Jutes had migrated the Danes moved fast in and conquered the remnant population, a crisis among the Danes could have left the Wends room to move in instead.
In fact Jutland north of Schleswig was prime territory for Wendic style farming.
If people look at this map:
The map show the soil quility in Denmark, bluish green is the best one and pale orange is the worst one (the bluish green green give 25 times the wheat as pale orange). Why is this important, because the Slavs with their more primitive agricultural technic prefered the poor soil, because a simple wooden plough could be used in the sandy soil, while the richer loom took a lot more labour and was hard for them to use. So they could relative easy set up a principality up in Jutland.
But in the long term it won't survive, but still it will likely change European history in many ways. First we will se Danes and franks come into conflict later, likely pushing the Vikings (as something more than raiders) if they happens into the future.
Second without a strong Danish kingdom in Jutland and only a weaker Wendic principality, the Frisian will likely settled the entire western coast of Jutland (the Limfjord would be a natural habitat of the Frisians, while the Wends would find it too swampy).
The Danes on the other hand may see the southern Baltic coast as a more natural place to conquer, as it's thinly populated and closer to the main Danish stronghold of Sealand-Scania. Denmark are also likely to have another name, as Denmark was likely original a term for a Danish border principality in Jutland, who later took over the islands (according to Saxo through marriage).
In Britain without the Danish invasions, there will be less push to unify, it will likely happen anyway, but it may happen in a more ad hoch way.
The Slavs on the Jutish heath, even if the Danes, Frisians, Franks or Saxon take over will likely survive until the 19th century as the Wends on Lüneburg heath did, as the conquer will be more interested in the more fertile earth coast and north.
worth noticing ... several places (specially the southern danish isles) had a substantial Wendish minority through most of the latter middle ages, not only as common farmers but even a few noble houses (specially noteworthy would be House of Putbus, which were a cadet line of the ruling house) came from Rügen. Even a few names in use in Denmark is clearly inherited from this minority (Preben, from the Slavic 'Pritbor' from 'prid' first and 'bor' battle is the most used of these)