Eastern Orthodoxy in medieval Western Europe

How could Orthodoxy have existed in pockets of Western Europe? From what I understand, though there were bitter theological differences between East and West, and political rivalries that most dramatically culminated in the Sacking of Constantinople, there wasn't the sort of internecine bloodshed and persecution between adherents of the two churches like there was between Protestants and Catholics. Or was there? There probably wasn't too much interaction between the two churches in the Middle Ages anyway, Frankish imperialism in Anatolia aside.

So how could there be significant minorities, or at least notable communities, of Eastern Orthodox believers in western Europe during the Middle Ages? Greek or Russian traders? Certainly there were Catholics going east for trade or crusade, but what could lead the Orthodox to go west?
 
How could Orthodoxy have existed in pockets of Western Europe? From what I understand, though there were bitter theological differences between East and West, and political rivalries that most dramatically culminated in the Sacking of Constantinople, there wasn't the sort of internecine bloodshed and persecution between adherents of the two churches like there was between Protestants and Catholics. Or was there?

Before 700's, the two churches were kind of close, thanks to the Pope that mamanged to influenced a lot the west while being part of Byzantine policies. When Arabo-Islamic empire cut the connexions up to IX century, the distinction was made between kingdoms : you had the Iberic church with the visigothic king as its head, the Northern Italian (Ambrosian or not) with the Lombard king, the Frankish churches with the majordomo, etc.

It's both the cut and the rise of the Franks as the only christian power in West that changed things : critically with Charlemagne, standardizing the rites and the beliefs in all West really catalyzed the Catholic church against an Orthodox church that was in crisis (iconoclasm, among other things).

But the differences were still massively politicals, and the removal of orthodox priest from Southern Italy are more about the Normans than the power of the pope. And you had monasteries of italo-byzantine tradition up to quite late in Middle-Ages.

The main orthodox group was southern Italy, periodically revitalized by immigration coming from Balkans up to 1500's (Greek, Albanians, Slavs from Adriatic).

Of course, you had tensions, but it was more Lutherans/Calvinist scale than bloodshed.

In fact, you had really a cut appearing during Crusades : the latins were in direct contact with Byzance for the first time since the 750's and, as all groups evolving separatly, they had trouble to recognize each other.

If you add the fact the orthodox church was only a part of the Byzantine policy, not really the autnonmous (or even independent) organisation the Catholic church was...Let's say the Orthodoxs often payed the lack of support of Byzance towards the Crusaders by being less well treated than other oriental churches.

Finally, between 1100's and 1200's, the situation was really tense and eventually came to sack of Constantinople, that was almost a spontaneous reaction after years of provocations and not really kind events from both sides. But, and I insist, it was condamned by Papacy until they said themselves "Ok, what is done is done, so better to organize this better, and try to avoid the mess Holy Land is now".

Surprisingly, even after the recapture of Constantinople by Byzantines, things tended to go better, slightly, between the head of both churches (Pope and Basileus), but now the orthodox clergy was even more hostile to Latins.

And for the theological differences...As it was the case everywhere since the 700 in all Europe, every national church have its particular rites and differences.
To make a comparison, let's say that knowing these differences and appreciate their importance, was in the same scale than knowing every trotskyist organisation in USA and class them regarding political differences.

So hard and so pointless that is comical : the only difference of relative importance was the Filioque dispute. Franlky, some orientel churches joined the Catholics with more differences than that.

There probably wasn't too much interaction between the two churches in the Middle Ages anyway,
Southern Italy, Dalmatia, Croats/Serbs, Palestine, Southern Spain, pick your choice.

Frankish imperialism in Anatolia aside.
Frankish Imperialism? So, I suppose the kings of the Franks became King of Jerusalem, and that the policy of Latin States was fitting only Frankish interests?

More seriously, no. 5 states with nothing in common but being "Latins"...wait no, one was armenian. Okay, nothing in common but being "Frank...", damn, one was occitan, other armenian.

All were catholic maybe? Nuh.

Back on Earth : it was comparable to Arabo-Islamic invasions : a group of warriors with their clientele take a region and claim it as his own. The King of the Franks have little to say regarding that, and the ones that benefited for this were the conquerors and the settlers.

So how could there be significant minorities, or at least notable communities, of Eastern Orthodox believers in western Europe during the Middle Ages?
You had, in Southern Italy with remaining of old Italo-Byzantines, Greek and Albanians refugees...

Certainly there were Catholics going east for trade or crusade, but what could lead the Orthodox to go west?
Trade, but also, if you don't have the cut of 700's, Italy.
Let's take that Pope doesn't renounce Byzantine alliance to prefer Franks to help him against Lombards : Italy could have sided Orthodox.

Of course, it would have meant thaat the Basileus should have sawn an interest to this, because so far he was concerned it wasn't vital for the Empire. And there's what refrained Orthodoxy to expand : when it wasn't vital for the Empire.

On the other hand, Catholicism managed to be an unifing factor of west, with a certain autonomy from secular powers and with its own interests.
 
Thanks for the long and detailed response! Historical context and info is helpful for any what-if, and I'm grateful for you providing it.

Southern Italy, Dalmatia, Croats/Serbs, Palestine, Southern Spain, pick your choice.

Wait, there were Greeks or other Eastern Orthodox in Southern Spain? Southern Italy I guess was from the presence of Greeks. The other places make sense as well but they aren't western Europe.

Frankish Imperialism? So, I suppose the kings of the Franks became King of Jerusalem, and that the policy of Latin States was fitting only Frankish interests?

More seriously, no. 5 states with nothing in common but being "Latins"...wait no, one was armenian. Okay, nothing in common but being "Frank...", damn, one was occitan, other armenian.

All were catholic maybe? Nuh.

Back on Earth : it was comparable to Arabo-Islamic invasions : a group of warriors with their clientele take a region and claim it as his own. The King of the Franks have little to say regarding that, and the ones that benefited for this were the conquerors and the settlers.

What I wrote was poorly phrased and inaccurate but I was alluding to the Frankokratia. Yeah it wasn't on Anatolia at all. However in the name they're called Franks, so I'm going with that generalization of them. And yes it wasn't imperialism anymore than any other military invasion in that era was, but I still like to think of it as Western Europe's first colony was parts of the Byzantine Empire. Or maybe the Kingdom of Jerusalem or states taken from Spain, but who's counting?

It's a digression anyway.

Let's take that Pope doesn't renounce Byzantine alliance to prefer Franks to help him against Lombards : Italy could have sided Orthodox.

Of course, it would have meant thaat the Basileus should have sawn an interest to this, because so far he was concerned it wasn't vital for the Empire. And there's what refrained Orthodoxy to expand : when it wasn't vital for the Empire.

On the other hand, Catholicism managed to be an unifing factor of west, with a certain autonomy from secular powers and with its own interests.

So... southern Italy is or remains Orthodox, northern Italy is Catholic? Interesting. I'd be interested if somehow Orthodox communities get as far as France/the Low Countries/Germany, but they'd be in smaller groups.
 
Wait, there were Greeks or other Eastern Orthodox in Southern Spain? Southern Italy I guess was from the presence of Greeks. The other places make sense as well but they aren't western Europe.

Spain from Justinian's conquest to Leovigild death. You had Hispano-Byzantines lords up to the Conquista at least (the famous count Julianos).

but I still like to think of it as Western Europe's first colony was parts of the Byzantine Empire.
But it's not because you like to think that, that's more true. Latin Empire was more an issue for western kingdoms than a real gain : the Latin Emperors were jerk that wanted more and more money for them, diverted warriors and knights because they were surrounded by foes and needed help.

And you can just see how much Hospitalers were well treated to have an idea on how western kingdoms saw "Frankokratia" : a ruining adventure. They helped them as you have to help your stupid brother that don't stop to go in mess with more bully, jerk and smart than him.

Or maybe the Kingdom of Jerusalem or states taken from Spain, but who's counting?
You mean, apart having a Catalan wank due to that, thanks to occitan and frankish settlers, or having the Kingdom of Jerusalem lasting more than 1 generation?

So... southern Italy is or remains Orthodox, northern Italy is Catholic?
More complicated. North-West Italy is Ambrosian, so more tied to Pope. North-East is about Aquilea's Patriarcate, relativly distinct from Pope, but still Catholic.
Southern Italy is more Orthodox but catholizies quickly.

And of course, such differences were mostly for scholars and elites. The peasants were Christians and didn't searched too much to understand the political differences or the theological subtilities.

Interesting. I'd be interested if somehow Orthodox communities get as far as France/the Low Countries/Germany, but they'd be in smaller groups.

Then you'll need the Byzantine Empire going that far. And it would likely butterfly the Catholic/Orthodox divide.
 
You mean, apart having a Catalan wank due to that, thanks to occitan and frankish settlers, or having the Kingdom of Jerusalem lasting more than 1 generation?

No, I meant it seems like that the Kingdom of Jerusalem or even Reconquista states could be thought of as Europe's first stab at colonialism outside of Europe.
 
No, I meant it seems like that the Kingdom of Jerusalem or even Reconquista states could be thought of as Europe's first stab at colonialism outside of Europe.

But this is not.
First, a colony imply the power of a metropole. You don't have there.

Second, it imply the creation of particular economic and cultural links with metropole. You don't have there.

Third, it imply the imposition of all the population of the colonial culture. You don't have there.
 
It wouldnt be very hard to get sweden to convert to orthodoxy instead of catholicism, and it MGHT be possible to get norway and iceland to do the same. England is another possibility, either c.1066 in reaction to papal blessing of williams invawion, if william lost, or an altHenry viii
 
Serbs fleeing across the sea to Italy during the Ottoman conquests like their Croat neighbours could create Orthodox pockets.
 

Kosta

Banned
The Albanians weren't though. They keep Orthodox rite (and Arbereshe language of course) in Southern Italy to this day, though they are Eastern Catholics, not Orthodox.

It's not like there weren't Orthodox Christians in Southern Italy in the Mediaeval Era, though: look at Barlaam of Seminara.
 
It wouldnt be very hard to get sweden to convert to orthodoxy instead of catholicism, and it MGHT be possible to get norway and iceland to do the same. England is another possibility, either c.1066 in reaction to papal blessing of williams invawion, if william lost, or an altHenry viii

I actually have a thread on Orthodox Scandinavia but it's just a discussion thread.
 
The Albanians weren't though. They keep Orthodox rite (and Arbereshe language of course) in Southern Italy to this day, though they are Eastern Catholics, not Orthodox.

You resumed the situation rather well. They were accepted as a distinct group because Catholics.

Serbs weren't and they had to merge more completly to be accepted.
 
It wouldnt be very hard to get sweden to convert to orthodoxy instead of catholicism, and it MGHT be possible to get norway and iceland to do the same. England is another possibility, either c.1066 in reaction to papal blessing of williams invawion, if william lost, or an altHenry viii

Wasn't there someone who said the only Scandinavian country who could really go Orthodox was Finland?
 
Hungary could have converted to orthodoxy if the Patriarch had been willing to offer Hungary a royal title rather than another grand duchy.
 
Wasn't there someone who said the only Scandinavian country who could really go Orthodox was Finland?

Critically because at this time, the Byzantine Empire was no more. For converting any country, the Empire should have seen an interest to do such.

I would insist : Orthodoxy was almost only a diplomatic and institutional tool of Byzantium before the XIV century.
 
Hungary could have converted to orthodoxy if the Patriarch had been willing to offer Hungary a royal title rather than another grand duchy.


Even there, I think the Hungary would have sided sooner or later with Latins, as their interests and priorities were more westwards than eastwards.
 
It wouldnt be very hard to get sweden to convert to orthodoxy instead of catholicism, and it MGHT be possible to get norway and iceland to do the same. England is another possibility, either c.1066 in reaction to papal blessing of williams invawion, if william lost, or an altHenry viii

England's probably your best bet prior to 1066 England had been backing Constantinople politically in the Great Schism, partly I suspect to prevent papal interference in the English church as there were certain aspects of the English church that caused Rome concerns, for instance English priests were still regularly getting married despite Papal injunctions not to. This was part of the reason that the Normans received a papl banner. If William the Bastard lost at Hastings I can certainly see England settling more firmly into the Orthodox camp. This may well influence Scotland and the Irish church too
 
still ... Orthodox being spread north by the rus rivers to the Baltics and from there across to Sweden and prehaps eastern norway, is certainly a possible scenario, Iceland (and via that also western norway) was on the other hand mainly influenced from Irish Monks, whereas Denmark had Germans bishops from just south of Eider ... with Southern Sweden (Skåne, and prehaps parts of Småland) and Western Norway would become local religious melting pots, not unalike pre-ottoman Balkans ...

Orthodox being spread that way would probably also make the Catholic states more interested in pushing south, as there would only really be Teutons left to run the baltic crusades, hence more focus on the reconquestia, prehaps even pushing through establishing a Christian stronghold in Marautania
 
Actually OTL Poland, Wends, Denmark and the Saxons could be Greek Rite before turning Catholic just like Bohemia/Moravia if Methodius and Cyril are more successful, I think Sweden, Finland and Norway could remain Orthodox in that scenario.
 
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