Terrorism in a surviving USSR

We've argued a bit about this issue in other threads, but I figure it's interesting enough that it deserves a thread all to itself.

Essentially, the question is that, in a TL with a surviving USSR and a recent POD, how effective would a terrorist organization like Al-Qaeda be in launching attacks against the citizens of the USSR.

First of all, my opinion is that the Soviets would probably be hated as much as the Americans are in OTL, if not more than. After all, the Soviets backed those secular socialist Arab regimes in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq that Al-Qaeda hates so much, and let's not forget the whole "godless heathen" thing.

That being said, while Al-Qaeda would have a lot of reasons to go after the Soviets, its effectiveness within the USSR would be quite limited. First of all, internal transit was much, MUCH harder in the Soviet Union than in the west. While Americans and Europeans can freely move about their respective countries with ease, the Soviets had that "internal passport" system, no to mention things like applications to live in certain cities. Furthermore, unlike the United States, a lot of the former Soviet Union isn't that well developed, meaning transport is often centralized to a few rail hubs and airports. A terror cell operating in enemy territory needs to keep mobile, and the Soviets were anything but.

On a related note, just entering the country itself would be a major headache. The Soviets were very much a closed society, and any legal attempt at getting into the country on "business" purposes would involve a rather arduous application and processing period, and, depending on the cover story, the possibility of covert surveillence for some time afterwards.

The second point is communications technology. Along with mobility, groups like Al-Qaeda make plentiful use of mobile world-spanning communications technology, with cell phones and the Internet to name two big examples. My feeling is that in a Soviet Union run along traditional means, both computers and phones will be subjected to the usual scarcities and expense, with the probable result of only becoming in any widespread use would be among the wealthy elite. In addition, I'd expect the Internet to be heavily censored, and for most mobile phone calls to be monitored.

Another hurdle would be acquiring the materials needed for an attack. However, given the size of the Soviet counter-economy, I feel that any terrorists would be able to acquire what they need, though I am tempted to believe that getting ahold of arms and explosives might be a problem.

Finally, there is the paranoia factor. The Soviets operated under an atmosphere of suspicion that would be completely foreign to any westerner. You can find accounts of westerners who were harassed by local citizens when they tried to take pictures of things as innocuous as bridges or gas stations. Look at any old pictures of landmarks in the USSR, and the one thing that will strike you is the sheer number of armed guards about the place. In addition, you have the KGB to deal with, an organization renouned for suspecting everything. Compared to this, the FBI and domestic security organizations in the USA are just a light breeze.

While I think that, given enough motivation, luck, and cleverness, a terrorist organization could launch a 9/11 type attack against the Soviet Union, I think that the various points I have outlined above would make it even more difficult than an attack in America or Europe (or Japan or Australia, I should mention too).

Thoughts?
 
Ivan Druzhkov said:
We've argued a bit about this issue in other threads, but I figure it's interesting enough that it deserves a thread all to itself.

Essentially, the question is that, in a TL with a surviving USSR and a recent POD, how effective would a terrorist organization like Al-Qaeda be in launching attacks against the citizens of the USSR.

First of all, my opinion is that the Soviets would probably be hated as much as the Americans are in OTL, if not more than. After all, the Soviets backed those secular socialist Arab regimes in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq that Al-Qaeda hates so much, and let's not forget the whole "godless heathen" thing.

That being said, while Al-Qaeda would have a lot of reasons to go after the Soviets, its effectiveness within the USSR would be quite limited. First of all, internal transit was much, MUCH harder in the Soviet Union than in the west. While Americans and Europeans can freely move about their respective countries with ease, the Soviets had that "internal passport" system, no to mention things like applications to live in certain cities. Furthermore, unlike the United States, a lot of the former Soviet Union isn't that well developed, meaning transport is often centralized to a few rail hubs and airports. A terror cell operating in enemy territory needs to keep mobile, and the Soviets were anything but.

On a related note, just entering the country itself would be a major headache. The Soviets were very much a closed society, and any legal attempt at getting into the country on "business" purposes would involve a rather arduous application and processing period, and, depending on the cover story, the possibility of covert surveillence for some time afterwards.

The second point is communications technology. Along with mobility, groups like Al-Qaeda make plentiful use of mobile world-spanning communications technology, with cell phones and the Internet to name two big examples. My feeling is that in a Soviet Union run along traditional means, both computers and phones will be subjected to the usual scarcities and expense, with the probable result of only becoming in any widespread use would be among the wealthy elite. In addition, I'd expect the Internet to be heavily censored, and for most mobile phone calls to be monitored.

Another hurdle would be acquiring the materials needed for an attack. However, given the size of the Soviet counter-economy, I feel that any terrorists would be able to acquire what they need, though I am tempted to believe that getting ahold of arms and explosives might be a problem.

Finally, there is the paranoia factor. The Soviets operated under an atmosphere of suspicion that would be completely foreign to any westerner. You can find accounts of westerners who were harassed by local citizens when they tried to take pictures of things as innocuous as bridges or gas stations. Look at any old pictures of landmarks in the USSR, and the one thing that will strike you is the sheer number of armed guards about the place. In addition, you have the KGB to deal with, an organization renouned for suspecting everything. Compared to this, the FBI and domestic security organizations in the USA are just a light breeze.

While I think that, given enough motivation, luck, and cleverness, a terrorist organization could launch a 9/11 type attack against the Soviet Union, I think that the various points I have outlined above would make it even more difficult than an attack in America or Europe (or Japan or Australia, I should mention too).

Thoughts?

Chances are that even though such an attack is possible, once it occurs some kind of hardliners will end up coming to power, and the result would be... well, somewhat along the lines of infamous "hostage taking" story in Beirut (for those unfamiliar with it, some Islamist group took few Soviet diplomats hostage... the Soviets retaliated with such brutality that for decades afterwards the Islamists did not dare to touch them). If USSR has a Stalin-like leader (think paranoia, xenophobia, and all things of that nature) there will be a concerned genocide, no questions asked. Unless we are talking liberalized USSR, after one attack of a kind and the consequences it brought forth no one in their mind would dare a second attack (unless they want to set someone else up for Soviet retaliation). Given that even in the context of geopolitics opposing "anti-terrorist" action would be, well, very hard to pull off for any at least semi-democratic society, chances are the Soviets would get a relatively free hand in retaliation as well...
 
The problem terrorist organizations would have operating in the USSR vs operating in the US is that the KGB has the tendency to smash down anyone who opposes Soviet rule.

If AQ tried a 9/11 type attack on Soviet soil I'd give them roughly a year before Osama's head was sitting outside the Kremlin and the rest of his cronies were in the basement over at Lubyanka.
 
AMBOMB said:
Terrorist groups would have no reason to target the USSR.

They would if the USSR stayed in Afghanistan. Other reasons could include Soviet suppression of Islam in some parts of the USSR, and Soviet support for secular nationalist and socialist governments in the Middle East. Remember that the Soviets were once on very good terms with several governments that were not popular with many Islamic fundamentalists such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan.
 
The odd thing is that the west and the USSR might end up cooperating together, if they manage to liberalize a little bit. One can imagine things in the the middle east might be a little strange with two superpowers not putting up with the terrorists.
 
Islamic Fundementalists main aim was the Soviets till its collapse. They were training recruitments from all over the Islamic world to fight in Afghanistan, but the war ended before they did much fighting.

Apparently Muslim Fundementalists think they were the reason the Soviets collapsed to this day. Nearly as delusional as the Reaganites.
 
Paul Spring said:
Other reasons could include Soviet suppression of Islam in some parts of the USSR, and Soviet support for secular nationalist and socialist governments in the Middle East.
I think that the Caucasus might be a possible entry point for terrorists eager to take a shot at the Soviets. As the events of the past decade and a half have shown, there's plenty of mental ammunition down there, with the sheer weight of the Soviets keeping things even vaguely quiet.
 
So...how are the Soviets in this TL? Shall we be optimistic and say they reformed big-time starting in, say, the early or mid 1970s, and at this point they're rather like Japan?

Or something more realistic, akin to the steady economic improvement of Poland?

'Cause I can't see them surviving without reforming...

But I personally think that whatever the situation in the USSR, they will be extremely brutal in responding to terrorism, domestic, international or otherwise.
 
VoCSe said:
It's not like the atheist Soviet infidels control a lot of Muslim land and people. And they certainly never bothered Afghanistan.
If you'll look at the objectives of the various terrorist groups around the world, you'll see that none of them have anything to do with the USSR or any country it supported.
 
Last edited:

Leo Caesius

Banned
AMBOMB said:
If you'll look at the objectives of the various terrorist groups around the world, you'll see that none of them have anything to do with the USSR or any country it supported.
Huh? What about the Muslim Brotherhood and their activities in Egypt and Syria? Last I checked, the Soviets supported both regimes. Also, the Soviet Union supported the Algerians, who have their own problem with militant islamists.
 
AMBOMB said:
If you'll look at the objectives of the various terrorist groups around the world, you'll see that none of them have anything to do with the USSR or any country it supported.

Quite true. Of course, this may have something to do with the fact that the Soviet Union hasn't existed for over 14 years - even the most fanatical terrorists probably aren't going to be targeting countries that don't exist.
 
Ivan Druzhkov said:
We've argued a bit about this issue in other threads, but I figure it's interesting enough that it deserves a thread all to itself.

Essentially, the question is that, in a TL with a surviving USSR and a recent POD, how effective would a terrorist organization like Al-Qaeda be in launching attacks against the citizens of the USSR.

First of all, my opinion is that the Soviets would probably be hated as much as the Americans are in OTL, if not more than. After all, the Soviets backed those secular socialist Arab regimes in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq that Al-Qaeda hates so much, and let's not forget the whole "godless heathen" thing.

That being said, while Al-Qaeda would have a lot of reasons to go after the Soviets, its effectiveness within the USSR would be quite limited. First of all, internal transit was much, MUCH harder in the Soviet Union than in the west. While Americans and Europeans can freely move about their respective countries with ease, the Soviets had that "internal passport" system, no to mention things like applications to live in certain cities. Furthermore, unlike the United States, a lot of the former Soviet Union isn't that well developed, meaning transport is often centralized to a few rail hubs and airports. A terror cell operating in enemy territory needs to keep mobile, and the Soviets were anything but.

On a related note, just entering the country itself would be a major headache. The Soviets were very much a closed society, and any legal attempt at getting into the country on "business" purposes would involve a rather arduous application and processing period, and, depending on the cover story, the possibility of covert surveillence for some time afterwards.

The second point is communications technology. Along with mobility, groups like Al-Qaeda make plentiful use of mobile world-spanning communications technology, with cell phones and the Internet to name two big examples. My feeling is that in a Soviet Union run along traditional means, both computers and phones will be subjected to the usual scarcities and expense, with the probable result of only becoming in any widespread use would be among the wealthy elite. In addition, I'd expect the Internet to be heavily censored, and for most mobile phone calls to be monitored.

Another hurdle would be acquiring the materials needed for an attack. However, given the size of the Soviet counter-economy, I feel that any terrorists would be able to acquire what they need, though I am tempted to believe that getting ahold of arms and explosives might be a problem.

Finally, there is the paranoia factor. The Soviets operated under an atmosphere of suspicion that would be completely foreign to any westerner. You can find accounts of westerners who were harassed by local citizens when they tried to take pictures of things as innocuous as bridges or gas stations. Look at any old pictures of landmarks in the USSR, and the one thing that will strike you is the sheer number of armed guards about the place. In addition, you have the KGB to deal with, an organization renouned for suspecting everything. Compared to this, the FBI and domestic security organizations in the USA are just a light breeze.

While I think that, given enough motivation, luck, and cleverness, a terrorist organization could launch a 9/11 type attack against the Soviet Union, I think that the various points I have outlined above would make it even more difficult than an attack in America or Europe (or Japan or Australia, I should mention too).

Thoughts?


POSSIBLE war between Al-Qaeda and the Soviet Union. The Soviets might translate the 9/11 type attack on one of its cities as a declaration of war (possibly Moscow, but pretty unlikely) and reitiate back with armed force (Tanks, troops and possibly ICBM nuclear missiles).

By the way, how closed were the Soviets were, Ivan? Was it easy to get into the Soviet Union? Just curious. Also, what do you think daily life in the Soviet Union might look like?
 
AMBOMB said:
Terrorist groups would have no reason to target the USSR.

Ummm...the invasion of Afghanistan, perhaps. Mujahadeen launched cross-border raids into the 'stans at at least one point during the Afghan-Soviet War.

Or, if said terrorists are opponents of Soviet-backed regimes elsewhere...
 
Leo Caesius said:
Huh? What about the Muslim Brotherhood and their activities in Egypt and Syria? Last I checked, the Soviets supported both regimes. Also, the Soviet Union supported the Algerians, who have their own problem with militant islamists.
I've never heard of the Muslim Brotherhood and it's not on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
AMBOMB said:
I've never heard of the Muslim Brotherhood and it's not on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations.
Are you kidding me? You may have heard of their branch in Palestine, it's called HAMAS. You may also have heard of the infamous Hama massacre in 1982; the Soviet-backed Asad regime was retaliating against the Syrian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood has branches everywhere.

Seriously, if you haven't heard of the Muslim Brotherhood, you can't claim to know anything about militant Islamist groups in the Middle East.
 
Shimernaru Dojo said:
POSSIBLE war between Al-Qaeda and the Soviet Union. The Soviets might translate the 9/11 type attack on one of its cities as a declaration of war (possibly Moscow, but pretty unlikely) and reitiate back with armed force (Tanks, troops and possibly ICBM nuclear missiles).

By the way, how closed were the Soviets were, Ivan? Was it easy to get into the Soviet Union?

Not that hard, actually....


http://www.tecsoc.org/pubs/history/2003/may28.htm

Bruce
 
Leo Caesius said:
Are you kidding me? You may have heard of their branch in Palestine, it's called HAMAS. You may also have heard of the infamous Hama massacre in 1982; the Soviet-backed Asad regime was retaliating against the Syrian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood has branches everywhere.

Seriously, if you haven't heard of the Muslim Brotherhood, you can't claim to know anything about militant Islamist groups in the Middle East.
I did a little reading on the Muslim Brotherhood. It's an Islamist organization with ties to a terrorist group called al-Jihad. But, it's not a terrorist group.
 
Top