Arnold, not Lee...

Battle of Monmouth, 1778.

What if Washington takes Arnold out to campaign with the army as his senior commander in the field and leaves Charles Lee behind in Philadelphia. OTL, it was the reverse and it had disastrous consequences in both cases.

Suppose, however, Washington takes a general who not only will mount the attack, and with great vigor and competency to boot, into Clinton's rear at Monmouth.

What happens if Arnold launches a cunningly well planned attack at Monmouth, providing Washington with the desired effects for their battle plan? (I say their plan because, if Washington was taking Arnold into the field with him, I think he'd consult very closely with him on the planning of the battle.)

Without Lee damn near leading the CA's lead attacking elements into a catastrophe (which was probably his intent, from what we know now) and giving away the element of surprise, what's the best that Washington and his 11,000 man force of battle and ordeal hardened (and now well trained and better disciplined) outcome they could be capable of?

Could an actual decisive victory against the main British Army on the continent actually be accomplished?

Thoughts?
 
It's certainly possible, if not likely. Remember, Monmouth in OTL was a draw, demonstrating the effectiveness of the Continental Army. So, the main British army is smashed at Monmouth in 1778. I presume the war will end quicker, but maybe not. Could any of our British members chime in; would Britain have given up at this juncture or sent another army?
 
It's certainly possible, if not likely. Remember, Monmouth in OTL was a draw, demonstrating the effectiveness of the Continental Army. So, the main British army is smashed at Monmouth in 1778. I presume the war will end quicker, but maybe not. Could any of our British members chime in; would Britain have given up at this juncture or sent another army?
 
Not British, but no, there's no way Britain gives up this early.

It might, in fact, humiliate the War Office enough that the useless boob occupying it (Lord George Germain) is replaced with someone competent and/or aggressive, which is a net loss for the rebels.
 
If Arnold carries the day here, Congress will have to give him the credit he earned. I don't think Washington, as modest as he was, would be a glory hog like Gates. I'm not sure how well Arnold would do, in concerns with his health less than a year after his wound. His leg never did heal right.
 
It's certainly possible, if not likely. Remember, Monmouth in OTL was a draw, demonstrating the effectiveness of the Continental Army. So, the main British army is smashed at Monmouth in 1778. I presume the war will end quicker, but maybe not. Could any of our British members chime in; would Britain have given up at this juncture or sent another army?

That was just my thinking; with a competent attack, does the draw become a decisive victory and if so, what then?

Just what kind of victory the Americans score is part of the question.

Not British, but no, there's no way Britain gives up this early.

It might, in fact, humiliate the War Office enough that the useless boob occupying it (Lord George Germain) is replaced with someone competent and/or aggressive, which is a net loss for the rebels.

Beat them bad enough and they might start looking for an exit strategy.

If Arnold carries the day here, Congress will have to give him the credit he earned. I don't think Washington, as modest as he was, would be a glory hog like Gates. I'm not sure how well Arnold would do, in concerns with his health less than a year after his wound. His leg never did heal right.

Most certainly.

I think Arnold get's his juice up for the chance at "The Big Win" though and that's enough to overcome his health concerns at the time.

How that effects him long term is another question for another thread...
 
I don't think Monmouth would become as decisive a victory as Saratoga or Yorktown where an entire army is captured, but I think it would have become an important victory that would hurt the British war effort. A victory here might have enabled the French under d'Estaing and Americans to trap at Sandy Hook later before Clinton could evacuate to New York City or at least enable them to take New York City.

That next battle might have become a decisive moment of the war, and enabled Washington to liberate most of New Jersey and New York City area. It also would have left a French field army in the US and a French fleet. The British might have lost most of their holdings in the north as the Continental Army could press on to Connecticut and New England.

Subsequently, the British might not be able to take Savanna later in 1778. This would lead them ill placed to fight any Southern Strategy.

The British might still desire to fight on, but the Americans and French would have a strong advantage. Washington could either reinforce the South, or even send forces back into Canada. Perhaps not Quebec, but into New Brunswick/Nova Scotia which might secure some of that land as US territory after the war.

Of course, this is only possible, not definite. The battle might still turn out to be a draw strategically even if it is an American victory tactically.
 
I don't think Monmouth would become as decisive a victory as Saratoga or Yorktown where an entire army is captured, but I think it would have become an important victory that would hurt the British war effort. A victory here might have enabled the French under d'Estaing and Americans to trap at Sandy Hook later before Clinton could evacuate to New York City or at least enable them to take New York City.

That next battle might have become a decisive moment of the war, and enabled Washington to liberate most of New Jersey and New York City area. It also would have left a French field army in the US and a French fleet. The British might have lost most of their holdings in the north as the Continental Army could press on to Connecticut and New England.

Subsequently, the British might not be able to take Savanna later in 1778. This would lead them ill placed to fight any Southern Strategy.

The British might still desire to fight on, but the Americans and French would have a strong advantage. Washington could either reinforce the South, or even send forces back into Canada. Perhaps not Quebec, but into New Brunswick/Nova Scotia which might secure some of that land as US territory after the war.

Of course, this is only possible, not definite. The battle might still turn out to be a draw strategically even if it is an American victory tactically.

New York City would be tricky, but with enough pressure on land and if (and that's a BIG if) the French navy can draw out the British naval presence there into a battle akin to the Battle of The Virginia Capes, drive them off and bring their guns to bear on the city from the harbor, they could, perhaps, remove the British presence from NYC.

Where it goes from there is hard to say.

If Clinton is actually captured at some point during this hypothetical New York campaign (or at Monmouth itself) I tend to wonder if the British don't start looking for the out if New York City falls.

Without New York, Boston or Philadelphia under their control, that leaves them with Nova Scotia and Canada to continue the war from.

There's also the question of what the impact of a Saratoga style victory over Clinton at Monmouth would have in those two non-rebellious provinces.

Two British field armies forced to capitulate in the field, with their command officers, within the span of just a little over 8 months?

Do the colonists in Canada and Nova Scotia start to view independence as a very real possibility and act on it?

What then?
 
Do the colonists in Canada and Nova Scotia start to view independence as a very real possibility and act on it?

What then?

Probably not Canada/Quebec, but Nova Scotia does become a tantalizing target. There was some support for the revolution there (mainly from New England immgrants prior to the war), but they were a minority. I believe Washington wanted to send troops there and take control, but always held back because he wanted to conserve his forces and not gamble. If the north is mainly cleared of British troops, and the south is not threatened, then Washington.

I don't think many native Nova Scotians will rebel - Halifax is swarming with Redcoats - but if Washington can send a sizable detachment of the Continental Army up there (plus some state militia) then could inspire a small local force to join them. I could see most of New Brunswick falling to the Americans, but I think the geography of the Nova Scotian peninsula itself would work against the Americans. But with determined French help, who knows? I think the odds are against Halifax falling though. There might be sufficient success for "delegates" from Nova Scotia to arrive to Congress and declare their independence.

A lot depends on how generous the British want to be during the peace treaty. With the US in New Brunswick, the British may not see any use to keep Nova Scotia and allow the US to have it. But if they wanted to push the point, they could easily retain it. If everything is turned over to the US, the 14th state is called Nova Scotia and includes both Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. If the British keep everything past the Bay of Funday, perhaps a new name will be choosen like "Acadia" with its capital at St John (basically New Brunswick with a different name). The presence of an additional free state early in US history has interesting repercussions, as the Senate will not be split equally.
 
Bumping.

If wars that DIDN'T happen can get 10 pages, I'm sure an actual battle with a fairly plausible POD to consider can get at least 2.
 
I don't think Monmouth would become as decisive a victory as Saratoga or Yorktown where an entire army is captured, but I think it would have become an important victory that would hurt the British war effort. A victory here might have enabled the French under d'Estaing and Americans to trap at Sandy Hook later before Clinton could evacuate to New York City or at least enable them to take New York City.
That next battle might have become a decisive moment of the war, and enabled Washington to liberate most of New Jersey and New York City area. It also would have left a French field army in the US and a French fleet. The British might have lost most of their holdings in the north as the Continental Army could press on to Connecticut and New England.
Subsequently, the British might not be able to take Savanna later in 1778. This would lead them ill placed to fight any Southern Strategy.
The British might still desire to fight on, but the Americans and French would have a strong advantage. Washington could either reinforce the South, or even send forces back into Canada. Perhaps not Quebec, but into New Brunswick/Nova Scotia which might secure some of that land as US territory after the war.
Of course, this is only possible, not definite. The battle might still turn out to be a draw strategically even if it is an American victory tactically.

I like this one!
Is it possible for the British to get their arses handed to them in the north via your scenereo and yet retain the southern colonies of Georgis, and the Carolinas (with maybe a part of Virginia)? Then in the 1830s when Britain outlaws slavery, the southern colonies could petition for membership in the United States.
 
Bumping.

If wars that DIDN'T happen can get 10 pages, I'm sure an actual battle with a fairly plausible POD to consider can get at least 2.

Well, part of the problem with accomplishing anything decisive (except proving the Continental Army's mettle) at Monmouth is the heat. Instead of seeing exhausted British troops smash against American positions, you might get something similar in reverse when the British army responds to being attacked. And that can't be good.

And that heat for someone who is as weakened as Arnold - no matter how high on adrenaline and confidence he is - might have more than merely post-battle consequences.
 
I like this one!
Is it possible for the British to get their arses handed to them in the north via your scenereo and yet retain the southern colonies of Georgis, and the Carolinas (with maybe a part of Virginia)? Then in the 1830s when Britain outlaws slavery, the southern colonies could petition for membership in the United States.

I don't see where that scenario presents the British with Georgia or the Carolinas.

If Clinton gets mauled at Monmouth or Washington's plan actually works, managing a complete encirclement of the main body of Clinton's army, forcing a Saratoga type capitulation, I don't know if Britain doesn't go to the table right there.

I don't believe Washington would send forces north unless Quebec or Nova Scotia had some serious revolutionary rumblings to support, thus, aside from keeping an eye on New York, Washington can send a larger force into the southern states to reinforce against British attempts at a southern strategy.

What's more, a mauling or capitulation has a high probability of seeing Cornwalis either a POW or possibly dead/wounded and out of action, meaning, the British could send a force into the southern states, but who's at the head of that army?

Whoever he is, he's probably facing a much larger CA presence in the south with very high morale and much more capable commanders than Granny Gates...

Well, part of the problem with accomplishing anything decisive (except proving the Continental Army's mettle) at Monmouth is the heat. Instead of seeing exhausted British troops smash against American positions, you might get something similar in reverse when the British army responds to being attacked. And that can't be good.

And that heat for someone who is as weakened as Arnold - no matter how high on adrenaline and confidence he is - might have more than merely post-battle consequences.

Well, that's the other part of the question here: How does Monmouth play out without Lee's dithering?

Lee's indecisiveness played a big factor in how the battle was fought. With a more decisive commander at the head of the attack, how does the battle play out?

Are the CA and British slugging it out for so long in the heat without Lee's timid attack and retreats?

That's something to be factored in here.

Clinton's response to a more aggressive attack into his rear might be different than it was to Lee's sudden full retreat. Lee's retreat is what drew Clinton into the counter-attack in the first place; looked like the same old Continental Army to him, maybe a little harder hitting than before, but still unable to stand in the field against a British Army.

If Clinton's faced with a CA that's clearly not the same foe he was used to, does he test his luck with a big counter-attack, like OTL, or does he use as much force as is necessary to halt Arnold, disengage and then withdraw?
 
If Arnold and Washington are more successful in the battle of Monmouth;
1.) Even if New York cannot be captured, it will be neutralized more.
2.) With the British holed up in NYC, this will leave the Americans free to campaign in 1779 against the Iroquois in New York.
3.) The next step for Washington may be to take back some British positions around New York.
4.) Instead of Sullivan leading the expedition against the Iroquois in upstate New York, it will be Arnold. Arnold will be a more determined to capture Ft. Niagara. With the British positions and forts taken prior to the campaign, more troops can be dedicated to the campaign in New York. Perhaps another prong is sent North to capture Montreal. The Americans capture Fort Niagara. In follow up campaign, troops are sent to aid George Rogers Clarke with the result that Detroit is captures as well.
5.) In 1880 Clarke with more support crushes all Indian resistance in the Northwest.
6.) The British still capture Savanah and the southern campaign still goes as OTL.
7.) Arnold might be sent instead of Greene or both may be sent together to Arnold as the general and Greene as a quartermaster to counter the British in the South after Gates is defeated at Camden.
8.) Yorktown occurs same as OTL as Washington and Arnold unite in VA as Greene continues operations against Charleston.
9.) In peace of Paris, US is granted what is Upper Canada as well as Northwest. This has a tremendous butterfly effect on the future of the USA.
 
Well, that's the other part of the question here: How does Monmouth play out without Lee's dithering?

Lee's indecisiveness played a big factor in how the battle was fought. With a more decisive commander at the head of the attack, how does the battle play out?

Are the CA and British slugging it out for so long in the heat without Lee's timid attack and retreats?

That's something to be factored in here.

Might be long enough, depending on how Clinton reacts - if he puts together a rear guard and tells them to hold off the Americans, that's one of thing, if he commits to battle that's another.

But it probably lasts long enough for the heat to be problematic.

Clinton's response to a more aggressive attack into his rear might be different than it was to Lee's sudden full retreat. Lee's retreat is what drew Clinton into the counter-attack in the first place; looked like the same old Continental Army to him, maybe a little harder hitting than before, but still unable to stand in the field against a British Army.

If Clinton's faced with a CA that's clearly not the same foe he was used to, does he test his luck with a big counter-attack, like OTL, or does he use as much force as is necessary to halt Arnold, disengage and then withdraw?

I'm leaning towards the second, if it gets down to that.

Clinton has no reason to fight here, if given his druthers no fight at all would be best. And he's the sort to act accordingly.

On the other hand, such a battle would not be terribly decisive - show the CA can attack even tough British troops, but about as much in terms of neutralizing armies as before.
 
If Arnold and Washington are more successful in the battle of Monmouth;
1.) Even if New York cannot be captured, it will be neutralized more.
2.) With the British holed up in NYC, this will leave the Americans free to campaign in 1779 against the Iroquois in New York.
3.) The next step for Washington may be to take back some British positions around New York.

Sounds most plausible.

4.) Instead of Sullivan leading the expedition against the Iroquois in upstate New York, it will be Arnold. Arnold will be a more determined to capture Ft. Niagara. With the British positions and forts taken prior to the campaign, more troops can be dedicated to the campaign in New York. Perhaps another prong is sent North to capture Montreal. The Americans capture Fort Niagara. In follow up campaign, troops are sent to aid George Rogers Clarke with the result that Detroit is captures as well.
5.) In 1880 Clarke with more support crushes all Indian resistance in the Northwest.

These...could be disastrous. Not the New York campaign and capturing Ft. Niagara, not necessarily even a campaign to re-take Montreal, but the northwest and Ft. Detroit may be a bit too much. That's a lot of territory to cover and operations in the area must be conducted with the understanding that, those tribes are rather tenacious and when the war's over, they'll have to live with those tribes within their borders.

Now, if they can start cultivating alliances of their own with the tribes of the northwest to help push the British out, that could yield the most desirable outcome.

Still, taking Montreal and Ft. Niagara could neutralize Detroit as a factor in the war altogether.

At war's end, if the Canadians want to stay (in whole or in part), it could give the U.S. the latitude needed to demand a portion of the St. Lawrence River valley, or, at the very least, use Montreal as leverage to dislodge the British from Detroit and the northwest forts a lot faster than OTL.

6.) The British still capture Savanah and the southern campaign still goes as OTL.

If Cornwallis is still around to do it. He was part of Clinton's staff at Monmouth and in a Monmouth where the Americans fare better, he may not be available to conduct the operations in the south. (POW/KIA/WIA, severely)

7.) Arnold might be sent instead of Greene or both may be sent together to Arnold as the general and Greene as a quartermaster to counter the British in the South after Gates is defeated at Camden.
8.) Yorktown occurs same as OTL as Washington and Arnold unite in VA as Greene continues operations against Charleston.

Again, all depends on whether or not Cornwallis is available.

A different commander in the southern theater could change the whole complexion of the campaign there.

9.) In peace of Paris, US is granted what is Upper Canada as well as Northwest. This has a tremendous butterfly effect on the future of the USA.

That's if 4 and 5 break exactly right for the U.S. and that's a tough undertaking.

Still, an intriguing take that would indeed have a tremendous butterfly effect on the U.S., going forward.

I don't think the U.S. gets all of Upper Canada though.

Perhaps the territory south of the Ottawa River, but the British are still in a position to give a firm "No." on ceding all access to the Great Lakes.

Might be long enough, depending on how Clinton reacts - if he puts together a rear guard and tells them to hold off the Americans, that's one of thing, if he commits to battle that's another.

But it probably lasts long enough for the heat to be problematic.

Possibly, yes, but if fresh troops can be rotated in to relieve Arnold's force in a timely manner, it might not.


I'm leaning towards the second, if it gets down to that.

Clinton has no reason to fight here, if given his druthers no fight at all would be best. And he's the sort to act accordingly.

Agreed.

On the other hand, such a battle would not be terribly decisive - show the CA can attack even tough British troops, but about as much in terms of neutralizing armies as before.

That's actually part of my original question: Could the CA land a decisive victory at Monmouth if Arnold's leading the attack, rather than Lee, how such a victory could be achieved and what would constitute such a victory?

I could have been more clear in the OP though and that's my bad.:eek:
 
Possibly, yes, but if fresh troops can be rotated in to relieve Arnold's force in a timely manner, it might not.

Fresh troops from where, though?

Any troops on the field will be as wilted by the heat, even if not put in the fight.

Still, there's possibilities...

That's actually part of my original question: Could the CA land a decisive victory at Monmouth if Arnold's leading the attack, rather than Lee, how such a victory could be achieved and what would constitute such a victory?

I could have been more clear in the OP though and that's my bad.:eek:
I would say no. Or rather, I would say that if the CA is threatening such, Clinton will make a good retreat - in good order and with most of his army intact, in other words. The CA isn't quite good enough to stop that (and probably doesn't have enough cavalry, specifically).

Arnold and the CA are good enough for it to be an open question however, so Clinton's generalship on the other side and the heat being the main obstacles to me saying its probable - but I wouldn't call it implausible if written right.

So to answer the "what would constitute such a victory":

I can think of two things.

1) A decisive smash that sees the British skedaddling, and the consequences coming from there. This is actually possible.

2) Clinton surrenders. This...probably isn't. Clinton is a little too good, and the weather too bad. But you might get a very bloody defeat (with the British withdrawing at a time not of their choosing) even if their army isn't broken, which is almost as good.

The first probably has a limited impact on the war, in itself. How Arnold fares will be more relevant. The second gets into more dramatic possibilities.
 
Fresh troops from where, though?

Any troops on the field will be as wilted by the heat, even if not put in the fight.

Arnold would be attacking with the same force assigned to Lee; 4,000 troops to launch his assault on the rear of Clinton's column as it leaves Monmouth Courthouse.

Here's one place I think Arnold has a bigger impact than Lee; he arrives at Monmouth Courthouse earlier in the day, catching more of Clinton's column as they are about to leave Monmouth Courthouse.

If the battle opens earlier in the day, the opening engagement is fought before the oppressive heat of mid-day really hits the field. On top of that, getting to Monmouth Courthouse sooner could net him perhaps 1/3 to close to half of Clinton's force either breaking camp or in the process of debarking.

Catching them flatfooted, while preparing to debark or just getting under way, an aggressive commander, such as Arnold, could definitely do some major damage, possibly (but by no means for certain) cutting Clinton's force into two. Not to say literally in two, half his force, rather, cutting off a sizable chunk of Clinton's force and pinning it in place at Monmouth Courthouse, at a disadvantage, while awaiting the arrival of Washington and the main body of the CA in the theater, about 6,000 more men.

If Arnold could do that and then hold on long enough for the main body to arrive...

That's where I hit the wall in these scenarios. Lee's lethargic offensive and then general retreat resulted in Washington being forced to change his battle plan on the fly to adjust to Clinton's counter-attack. That's how Monmouth played out OTL; not with Washington's original plan, rather with a rather skillful counter to adapt to the circumstances he found himself in when Lee sounded his infamous retreat.

I believe Arnold can get to Monmouth Courthouse quicker than Lee, being more aggressive and less indecisive than Lee was. When he gets there would then dictate what his situation will be when he launches his attack; how many British soldiers is he facing and how many are caught in a vulnerable state, (just debarking, breaking camp, watering the draft animals, eating breakfast even) how hard he can hit them and what, if any, sort of gap he might have between those British troops and the rest of Clinton's army to exploit and possibly wedge a portion of his forces into to pocket the forces at Monmouth Courthouse. Fighting in the morning, before the temperature rises to it's mid-day levels would eliminate the heat exhaustion suffered by both forces in the opening phase of the battle. Arnold, because he has the initiative and element of surprise would benefit more from this, but the British troops he engages would likewise benefit from the cooler morning temperatures none the less.

Now, the next critical part: How fast can Clinton turn his column to counter- attack and attempt to break his forces out of what we'll call "The Monmouth Pocket"? When does his attacking force arrive and can they get there before Washington and the main body of the CA have time to deploy for a proper engagement?

Lastly, the elusive question: What was Washington's original plan?

Perhaps, if Arnold can accomplish all of the above, and Washington can get there before Clinton can, he can deploy into a trap, relieving Arnold's men holding the north side of "The Pocket" to withdraw to the rear to rest and refit, slowly bringing the rest of Arnold's forces off the line as fresh units arrive, to do the same. With Arnold and his men removed to the rear and Washington in command of the field at Monmouth Courthouse before Clinton can arrive but also before Clinton realizes that he's marching not into Arnold's exhausted men but rather into Washington's well deployed and fresh troops...

What does Washington do?

Can he draw Clinton in deep enough to pull off the encirclement?

If not, can he still deliver a smashing blow to Clinton, driving him from the field?

That's the frustrating part of trying to figure it out, I'm at a loss as to what Washington's plan was if Lee had been able to pin his opposite number in place, as it would seem was the plan, as Washington's fury at Lee's full retreat may illustrate.


Still, there's possibilities...

I would say no. Or rather, I would say that if the CA is threatening such, Clinton will make a good retreat - in good order and with most of his army intact, in other words. The CA isn't quite good enough to stop that (and probably doesn't have enough cavalry, specifically).

Good points, if Clinton can clearly see a trap unfolding, he's not going to walk right into it and will, in all likelihood, manage an orderly withdrawal under such circumstances.

Arnold and the CA are good enough for it to be an open question however, so Clinton's generalship on the other side and the heat being the main obstacles to me saying its probable - but I wouldn't call it implausible if written right.

So to answer the "what would constitute such a victory":

I can think of two things.

1) A decisive smash that sees the British skedaddling, and the consequences coming from there. This is actually possible.

Because I believe the scenario I laid out above most likely results in this outcome, we'll go from here.

What are the consequences of such a decisive smash?

For the CA, from the top down, the Patriot cause and the Continental Congress, this would be an incredible morale boost.

Washington and Arnold have dealt the British a severe defeat in the field not eight months after Saratoga.

Such a victory may begin to pull many fence sitters in the colonies into the Patriot camp, boost enlistments and bolster the CA's ranks.

Granted, these new troops need to be trained and fitted out, but with Clinton bloodied and driven back into the safety of New York, time is something they'll probably have surplus of as the British regroup.

A follow up campaign to secure positions around New York City would be the shrewd strategic follow up for Washington here and very much achievable.

The question now: What do the British do in the wake of such a battering?

They've just seen, in about eight months, the fortunes of war shift from capturing the rebel capital and chasing off their main army into the eastern hill country of Pennsylvania and a winter of misery, to the capitulation of one entire army in the field at Saratoga and now, a brutal defeat of a second (and larger) British army in the field and in the very sort of engagements that, prior to such, the British believed their colonial adversaries incapable of effectively fighting.

What do the British do? Morale would definitely be shaken. Such a loss would have to be viewed as totally unacceptable to Clinton's superiors in Parliament.

What does Parliament do?

What of British public opinion?

How safe do the Loyalists feel in the wake of a Continental Army victory on such a scale?

Does this change their perception of the war entirely, or just enough to seek a change of strategy and perhaps a new command officer?

What do colonial Loyalists make of this?

It raises some interesting questions.

2) Clinton surrenders. This...probably isn't. Clinton is a little too good, and the weather too bad. But you might get a very bloody defeat (with the British withdrawing at a time not of their choosing) even if their army isn't broken, which is almost as good.

The first probably has a limited impact on the war, in itself. How Arnold fares will be more relevant. The second gets into more dramatic possibilities.

Agreed. The only way I see this happening is if something goes terribly wrong on Clinton's end and even then, I still think the British can fight their way out of it.

Clinton getting thumped and driven from the field in a bloodbath is one thing, especially if Washington and Arnold can pull off what I outlined above...but I have to agree on the encirclement and capitulation.

They just don't have the numbers or the cavalry to do it.

Still, all in all, it's looking like Arnold would have been the much better choice over Lee and the Battle of Monmouth would only be the beginning of the dividends paid out if Washington gives that one command to Arnold over Lee.
 
Arnold would be attacking with the same force assigned to Lee; 4,000 troops to launch his assault on the rear of Clinton's column as it leaves Monmouth Courthouse.

Here's one place I think Arnold has a bigger impact than Lee; he arrives at Monmouth Courthouse earlier in the day, catching more of Clinton's column as they are about to leave Monmouth Courthouse.

If the battle opens earlier in the day, the opening engagement is fought before the oppressive heat of mid-day really hits the field. On top of that, getting to Monmouth Courthouse sooner could net him perhaps 1/3 to close to half of Clinton's force either breaking camp or in the process of debarking.

Catching them flatfooted, while preparing to debark or just getting under way, an aggressive commander, such as Arnold, could definitely do some major damage, possibly (but by no means for certain) cutting Clinton's force into two. Not to say literally in two, half his force, rather, cutting off a sizable chunk of Clinton's force and pinning it in place at Monmouth Courthouse, at a disadvantage, while awaiting the arrival of Washington and the main body of the CA in the theater, about 6,000 more men.

If Arnold could do that and then hold on long enough for the main body to arrive...

This is where it, as you note, gets complicated. But so far its at the point I'd support as plausible.

That's where I hit the wall in these scenarios. Lee's lethargic offensive and then general retreat resulted in Washington being forced to change his battle plan on the fly to adjust to Clinton's counter-attack. That's how Monmouth played out OTL; not with Washington's original plan, rather with a rather skillful counter to adapt to the circumstances he found himself in when Lee sounded his infamous retreat.

I believe Arnold can get to Monmouth Courthouse quicker than Lee, being more aggressive and less indecisive than Lee was. When he gets there would then dictate what his situation will be when he launches his attack; how many British soldiers is he facing and how many are caught in a vulnerable state, (just debarking, breaking camp, watering the draft animals, eating breakfast even) how hard he can hit them and what, if any, sort of gap he might have between those British troops and the rest of Clinton's army to exploit and possibly wedge a portion of his forces into to pocket the forces at Monmouth Courthouse. Fighting in the morning, before the temperature rises to it's mid-day levels would eliminate the heat exhaustion suffered by both forces in the opening phase of the battle. Arnold, because he has the initiative and element of surprise would benefit more from this, but the British troops he engages would likewise benefit from the cooler morning temperatures none the less.

Now, the next critical part: How fast can Clinton turn his column to counter- attack and attempt to break his forces out of what we'll call "The Monmouth Pocket"? When does his attacking force arrive and can they get there before Washington and the main body of the CA have time to deploy for a proper engagement?

Lastly, the elusive question: What was Washington's original plan?

Perhaps, if Arnold can accomplish all of the above, and Washington can get there before Clinton can, he can deploy into a trap, relieving Arnold's men holding the north side of "The Pocket" to withdraw to the rear to rest and refit, slowly bringing the rest of Arnold's forces off the line as fresh units arrive, to do the same. With Arnold and his men removed to the rear and Washington in command of the field at Monmouth Courthouse before Clinton can arrive but also before Clinton realizes that he's marching not into Arnold's exhausted men but rather into Washington's well deployed and fresh troops...

What does Washington do?

Can he draw Clinton in deep enough to pull off the encirclement?

If not, can he still deliver a smashing blow to Clinton, driving him from the field?

That's the frustrating part of trying to figure it out, I'm at a loss as to what Washington's plan was if Lee had been able to pin his opposite number in place, as it would seem was the plan, as Washington's fury at Lee's full retreat may illustrate.

I wish I could help, but I don't know the original plan either. My educated guess is that this is the "bloody retreat and a hastily assembled rear guard" scenario, possibly with a fair sized force cut off.

Saratoga? No. On the other hand, an enormous vindication of the Continental Army and humiliation of Clinton. This will probably shake things up.


Good points, if Clinton can clearly see a trap unfolding, he's not going to walk right into it and will, in all likelihood, manage an orderly withdrawal under such circumstances.

This is my belief as to the most likely turn of events - but your scenario is good enough for me to respond to it as the one that happens rather than go pessimistic on you.

Because I believe the scenario I laid out above most likely results in this outcome, we'll go from here.

What are the consequences of such a decisive smash?

For the CA, from the top down, the Patriot cause and the Continental Congress, this would be an incredible morale boost.

Washington and Arnold have dealt the British a severe defeat in the field not eight months after Saratoga.

Such a victory may begin to pull many fence sitters in the colonies into the Patriot camp, boost enlistments and bolster the CA's ranks.

Granted, these new troops need to be trained and fitted out, but with Clinton bloodied and driven back into the safety of New York, time is something they'll probably have surplus of as the British regroup.

A follow up campaign to secure positions around New York City would be the shrewd strategic follow up for Washington here and very much achievable.

So far so good.

The question now: What do the British do in the wake of such a battering?

They've just seen, in about eight months, the fortunes of war shift from capturing the rebel capital and chasing off their main army into the eastern hill country of Pennsylvania and a winter of misery, to the capitulation of one entire army in the field at Saratoga and now, a brutal defeat of a second (and larger) British army in the field and in the very sort of engagements that, prior to such, the British believed their colonial adversaries incapable of effectively fighting.

What do the British do? Morale would definitely be shaken. Such a loss would have to be viewed as totally unacceptable to Clinton's superiors in Parliament.

What does Parliament do?

What of British public opinion?

How safe do the Loyalists feel in the wake of a Continental Army victory on such a scale?

Does this change their perception of the war entirely, or just enough to seek a change of strategy and perhaps a new command officer?

What do colonial Loyalists make of this?

It raises some interesting questions.

In order of...how the ideas came to me really.
I do not think it would be enough to change British policy in the sense of ending the war, I do think someone would be sent to replace Clinton.
I do think it would shake up loyalists, but probably more as a ripple effect from inspired Patriots rather than specifically the battle.
Parliament would be outraged.
British public opinion the same, though with less to do with that outrage.

Agreed. The only way I see this happening is if something goes terribly wrong on Clinton's end and even then, I still think the British can fight their way out of it.

Clinton getting thumped and driven from the field in a bloodbath is one thing, especially if Washington and Arnold can pull off what I outlined above...but I have to agree on the encirclement and capitulation.

They just don't have the numbers or the cavalry to do it.

Still, all in all, it's looking like Arnold would have been the much better choice over Lee and the Battle of Monmouth would only be the beginning of the dividends paid out if Washington gives that one command to Arnold over Lee.

Yeah. At the very least, it gives the Continental Army a chance to show what it can do with its most capable general in circumstances that might very well go quite badly for the British. This has to be powerfully helpful in the next campaign or two - past that depends on how things go.

And of course, there's Arnold. Hero of the hour instead of (not unreasonably) vilified for his behavior in Philadelphia. He'll be drunk on praise, and even his ego (I'm not a fan of Arnold the man, I must note) will feel satisfied. Washington will be thrilled, both at his army's performance and Arnold as "A man I can trust! Thanks be to Providence!"

But will this impact George Rogers Clark and all? Indirectly at best. The Iroquois expedition on the other hand...

That gets into another question. Is Arnold really physically fit for field command? How has this impacted his shaky health?

I think he's going to be exhausted and in pain at the end of the day, and some time recovering - but he'll mend. He was tough.

And he was able to handle being in the field later in the war (under the other flag), so he may be fine for the next major step.
 
Barring bizarre butterflies, Washington's prestige in this TL will be even greater than OTL, if such a thing is possible.

So is the Continental Army's. It is going to be very difficult for militia theorists to make a case that the militia played a role in the Monmouth victory, unlike with Saratoga.

Would this lead to marginal gains for Federalism, less suspicion of a standing army, continued survival of the Order of the Cincinnati, and possible even a continental army that survives during the Early Republic in some diminished form? Probably not, but possible.
 
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