Kubrick Adapts LOTR

Let's say, after finishing 2001: A Space Odyssey, Kubrick was lulled into a doing an adaptation of Lord of the Rings, and even puts together an epic script (at least of Fellowship). He makes this movie (could be as his next project, or just at some point in his career).

My question -- what would a Kubrick adaption of LOTR look like?

(And yes, there is a PoD to make this happen, and a thread was done on it -- let me state for the purposes here that the Beetles need play no role in this production, much less act in it.
 
Kubrick was very visual and symbolic, and I think we have to go off of his other book adaptation "The Shining" for the direction. The problem is that LOTR is very wordy, so how to maintain the depth of the novel without becoming an art film, and the effects required were in an age where special effects were obviously limited, so how to work around that.
 
Kubrick was very visual and symbolic, and I think we have to go off of his other book adaptation "The Shining" for the direction. The problem is that LOTR is very wordy, so how to maintain the depth of the novel without becoming an art film...

That is a tricky needle to thread .I don't think this so much makes the scenario unlikely or the movie poor -- since, if it can be done at all, I think Kubrick definitely has the caliber of genius needed to pull it off -- but it certainly makes our attempts at visualizing it next to impossible (since I, and I'm guessing everyone here, does not).

... and the effects required were in an age where special effects were obviously limited, so how to work around that.

That I don't agree with -- most of the effects used to create the trilogy in OTL used technology essentially available in 1968; and if 2001 is any indication, Kubrick would be the man to pull it off...
 
That is a tricky needle to thread .I don't think this so much makes the scenario unlikely or the movie poor -- since, if it can be done at all, I think Kubrick definitely has the caliber of genius needed to pull it off -- but it certainly makes our attempts at visualizing it next to impossible (since I, and I'm guessing everyone here, does not).
I have a picture in my minds eye. It's not like I can make anyone else see it though so I suppose it'll stay there.

That I don't agree with -- most of the effects used to create the trilogy in OTL used technology essentially available in 1968; and if 2001 is any indication, Kubrick would be the man to pull it off...
How does one create aethral effects like the Eye of Sauron? Or flying eagles which don't look like rigid puppets? Things of magic and mystery
 
That I don't agree with -- most of the effects used to create the trilogy in OTL used technology essentially available in 1968; and if 2001 is any indication, Kubrick would be the man to pull it off...


I'll have to somewhat disagree here. How many "orcs" and other non-human are there in 2001? Kubrick in 2001 had a few people on sets and not hundreds or thousands of SFX costumed people on sets like Jackson in LOTR.

Let's look at differences in sets between the two movies also. While Kubrick did build full size rotating habitation ring for many of the Discovery scenes, he "made do" with models and Foley work for most of the rest. Now, compare that to what Jackson was able to afford.

Jackson built Hobbiton. Not just an indoor set mind you, outdoors and at full scale. (NZ realized too late they should have kept it as a tourist attraction.) Jackson did the same with Edoras, large portions of Minas Tirith, Rivendell, Lothlorien, and other locations. This gave the secens shot at those locations a feeling which could not be equaled on a sound stage set.

New Zealand's geography provided Jackson with expansive outdoor shots that were real and unknown to most audiences. That meant Jackson could "reverse" the usual application of Foley work and sometimes ignore the need for Foley work altogether. Rather than having Foley work providing the backdrop for a real set, Jackson had Foley work being backdropped by reality. For example, those panoramic shots of Minas Tirith consist of a real mountain range with with the city inserted as a Foley and not a piece of Foley work in it's entirety. Similarly, the scenes at Edoras used the actual scenery of it's location and not scenery inserted via Foley works.

Finally, the CGI effects available to both men cannot be compared. The 2001 scene where Bowman passes into the Monolith is greeted by viewers today as boring and annoying because the visual effects Kubrick used are as obsolete as the stop motion puppet work in 1933's King Kong. Kubrick's Balrog, for example, is going to suffer from this.

Kubrick may realize he can't do the Balrog justice, although the 2001scene I mentioned earlier suggests he may not, and shoot the Balrog's scenes in a manner where we only get glimpses of the monster. However, the need to "fan dance" with the Balrog would effect the power of the scenes.

Kubrick was the visual master. In Full Metal Jacket, he was able to make the Beckton Gasworks resemble Hue and the Cliffe marshes look like Vietnam. I believe the visual hurdles inherent to LOTR would be too much for him however, especially considering he won't have the massive financial backing Jackson had.
 
I'll have to somewhat disagree here. How many "orcs" and other non-human are there in 2001? Kubrick in 2001 had a few people on sets and not hundreds or thousands of SFX costumed people on sets like Jackson in LOTR.

Let's look at differences in sets between the two movies also.... [etc]

I think Kubrick would do this if he could get the financing, which he would pursue -- however...

I believe the visual hurdles inherent to LOTR would be too much for him however, especially considering he won't have the massive financial backing Jackson had.

I'm not so sure about this -- at least not to the point that it's inevitable. Maybe if 2001 does better at the oscars?

Finally, the CGI effects available to both men cannot be compared. The 2001 scene where Bowman passes into the Monolith is greeted by viewers today as boring and annoying because the visual effects Kubrick used are as obsolete as the stop motion puppet work in 1933's King Kong. Kubrick's Balrog, for example, is going to suffer from this.

First point there, I have to agree; third point, also good.

Second point -- HERESY!!! :mad:
 
Aside from the visuals effects, I'm also wondering how Kubrick would approach some key themes in the trilogy? One thing that comes to mind -- Tolkein, I think, could be described as a reactionary in literature, who portrayed modernity and industry as pretty much evil.

Kubrick, OTOH, I would describe as an ironist -- a major theme in his work is the machine that works as intended, resulting in (unintended) disaster -- the doomsday machine in Dr. Strangelove, HAL in 2001, the "cure" in Clockwork Orange, training in Spartacus and Full Metal Jacket. Now, there's a lot of "machines" in LOTR for Kubrick to work with in this regard -- the mines of Moria, the Uruk Hai, the palantir, and, of course, the One Ring -- and many come close to Kubrick's irony in the books.

But -- and this is my point, for the thread -- it's not going to be a very different adaptation than we saw in OTL...
 
Aside from the visuals effects, I'm also wondering how Kubrick would approach some key themes in the trilogy? One thing that comes to mind -- Tolkein, I think, could be described as a reactionary in literature, who portrayed modernity and industry as pretty much evil.


Well, Tolkien set out quite consciously to write an epic in the old meaning of that word. When you remember that the past is always a Golden Age in epics, sagas, legends and the rest, the aversion to progress and modernity come into focus. He'd been playing around with the languages he'd created, he'd charted them through their various changes, and came up with a rough history to explain how/why those changes occurred that he then spun stories out of.

I'm sure Tolkien's time in the trenches played a part too. He was a Victorian/Edwardian living and writing in a very modern and, to him, a very ugly post-WW1 world.

Kubrick, OTOH, I would describe as an ironist -- a major theme in his work is the machine that works as intended, resulting in (unintended) disaster...

For the reasons you note, the Ring would be Kubrick's focus and the Ring's corrosive effects on all who came into contact with it or lusted after it. This might mean that Kubrick will avoid Jackson's biggest mistake: writing out the Scouring of the Shire.

Let me start by saying Jackson did an excellent job with the films, one that I had frankly thought would be impossible. I can understand why he made the choices and changes he did, except for cutting the fate of the post-Isengard Saruman and the Scouring of the Shire from the narrative. In doing that Jackson reduced the films to just another action-adventure movie, a fantastic action-adventure movie, but one that failed because the menace inherent in the Ring and Sauron's victory was not driven home as was done in the books.

Early in the books, when LOTR still resembles the Hobbit, Sam asks about "what happens next?" listening to someone chant out one of the ancient elven epics. It's all nice and dandy that the dragon was killed, princess rescued, and other heroic feats performed but Sam wants to know what happened after all that stuff. At the end of LOTR, Tolkien gives Sam what he wants while also ramming home the horrible fate which has just been averted.

The readers and the hobbits have been "traveling" through the story as tourists. They've met strange people in strange lands and witnessed strange things. None of it seems real to either the reader or the hobbits because all of it is so out of their experience. The only place the hobbits "understand" is also the only place in Middle Earth which is familiar to the reader; the Shire. Elves, dwarves, and kingdoms of men may have been saved but none of them are as familiar as the Shire so the threat they faced is necessarily diminished.

Tolkien gets all the "important" stuff out of the way a quarter of the way into the final volume. The Ring is destroyed, Sauron reduced to a shade, the King returns, lands and titles granted, and everyone has a good time. Just the thing for the end of our tourists' trip. Right?

Wrong.

When they get back home, the hobbits and the readers finally realize just how bad things could have gone elsewhere. Saruman has set up Mordor Lite in the Shire and all but destroyed the only thing in the story both the hobbits and the reader are most familiar with. Suddenly the menace is presented in terms which the reader can intimately grasp. It isn't about elves, dwarves, and all the rest. It's about people just like the village next door being enslaved while their lands and homes are destroyed. The hobbits fight again, this time for something far more comprehensible, and when they win something comprehensible to the reader is restored.

Contrast that to the ending of Jackson's film which see the four hobbits enjoying a pint while Sam wanders off to get laid.

I'd like to think Kubrick would understand that and would ensure that the story's real ending made it into any film or films he made.
 
What if he adapts LOTR post-Star Wars? George Lucas releases Star Wars to sold out theatres as per OTL and studios scramble to find sci-fi/fantasy projects of their own. IIRC United Aritsts bought the film rights in 1968. Maybe ITL they retain them and due the extreme technical complexity of the project as well as its philosophical underpinnings they approach Kubrick to direct.
 
For the reasons you note, the Ring would be Kubrick's focus and the Ring's corrosive effects on all who came into contact with it or lusted after it. This might mean that Kubrick will avoid Jackson's biggest mistake: writing out the Scouring of the Shire.

Let me start by saying Jackson did an excellent job with the films, one that I had frankly thought would be impossible. I can understand why he made the choices and changes he did, except for cutting the fate of the post-Isengard Saruman and the Scouring of the Shire from the narrative. In doing that Jackson reduced the films to just another action-adventure movie, a fantastic action-adventure movie, but one that failed because the menace inherent in the Ring and Sauron's victory was not driven home as was done in the books.

Early in the books, when LOTR still resembles the Hobbit, Sam asks about "what happens next?" listening to someone chant out one of the ancient elven epics. It's all nice and dandy that the dragon was killed, princess rescued, and other heroic feats performed but Sam wants to know what happened after all that stuff. At the end of LOTR, Tolkien gives Sam what he wants while also ramming home the horrible fate which has just been averted.

The readers and the hobbits have been "traveling" through the story as tourists. They've met strange people in strange lands and witnessed strange things. None of it seems real to either the reader or the hobbits because all of it is so out of their experience. The only place the hobbits "understand" is also the only place in Middle Earth which is familiar to the reader; the Shire. Elves, dwarves, and kingdoms of men may have been saved but none of them are as familiar as the Shire so the threat they faced is necessarily diminished.

Tolkien gets all the "important" stuff out of the way a quarter of the way into the final volume. The Ring is destroyed, Sauron reduced to a shade, the King returns, lands and titles granted, and everyone has a good time. Just the thing for the end of our tourists' trip. Right?

Wrong.

When they get back home, the hobbits and the readers finally realize just how bad things could have gone elsewhere. Saruman has set up Mordor Lite in the Shire and all but destroyed the only thing in the story both the hobbits and the reader are most familiar with. Suddenly the menace is presented in terms which the reader can intimately grasp. It isn't about elves, dwarves, and all the rest. It's about people just like the village next door being enslaved while their lands and homes are destroyed. The hobbits fight again, this time for something far more comprehensible, and when they win something comprehensible to the reader is restored.

Contrast that to the ending of Jackson's film which see the four hobbits enjoying a pint while Sam wanders off to get laid.

I'd like to think Kubrick would understand that and would ensure that the story's real ending made it into any film or films he made.

The Scouring of the Shire just doesn't work very well in the medium of film. There's been the major climax of the film and the Ring has been destroyed -- after that you have the denouement, where everything winds down and you conclude the story. Adding in another, lesser conflict after the climax would've messed up the flow of the film.

Now, if it had been a television series -- or better yet, a miniseries like "Taken" in 2002 -- then the Scouring of the Shire should have and probably would have been left in. The different format, with things happening relatively slowly and in smaller installments, would've fit the Scouring of the Shire quite nicely. Like in "Babylon 5" -- the fourth season was the major climax of the series, but the fifth season was still indispensable in thematic terms as well as in tying up loose ends (well, the second half of the fifth season anyway...) But with a film series of "The Lord of the Rings", you really have no choice but to alter the story to fit the medium.
 
The Scouring of the Shire just doesn't work very well in the medium of film.

I happen to agree with you.

But with a film series of "The Lord of the Rings", you really have no choice but to alter the story to fit the medium.

Which is why film isn't the best medium to present LOTR.

Seriously, if you have to change the true climax of the story and dispense with the primary thematic element to fit the medium, you've chosen the wrong medium in which to present the story.

I also think Kubrick was enough of a contrarian/iconoclast to try to keep the Scouring of the Shire in a film if he got that far.
 
Yeah, plus it's really just a matter of pacing the three films -- making sure the destruction of the ring comes early enough in the final installment to allow an act or so for the scourging...


That's what Tolkien did and it works for readers. Would it work for viewers however?

(Oh, BTW, got another Kubrick thread up -- could go with this...)

I followed your links earlier and downloaded the .pdf of the script. Must set aside the time to read it. The constant narration mentioned in the review sounds problematic, but Kubrick did pull it off with Barry Lyndon.
 
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