Rudolph I of Bohemia doesn't die in 1307

All those Bohemian TL made me think of this alternative.

IOTL when the Premyslid dynasty died out in 1306 the king of the Romans Albert of Habsburg was able to seize Bohemia as a reverted fief of the empire.
Albert managed to 'convince' to Bohemia Estates to elect his eldest son Rudolph as the new king of Bohemia, on the condition that the widower Rudolph (he had lost his first wive in 1305) married the widow of the last Premyslid king of Bohemia.
However this went not unopposed, Henry of Carinthia was married to a Premyslid princess and also claimed the Bohemian throne; furthermore there was the Bohemian nobility, which didn't like the fact the a king was forced upon them by the king of the Romans.

IOTL Rudolph died of dysentery during a campaign against rebels.

So WI Rudolph doesn't die (he doesn't get dysentery), but slowly with the help of his father, the king of the Romans, manages to secure Bohemia? He wouldn't have an easy reign or be popular, but OTOH IOTL the invited king of Bohemia John of Luxemburg, also had a hard time. Furthermore if Rudolph has a male heir, this heir probably has to marry a Premyslid heiress.

Finally I know that the Habsburgs have a mixed reputation in Bohemia, which probably has to do with the treaty of 1620, which ended the conflict between the house of Habsburg and Bohemia.
However since the kingdom of Bohemia would be the most important possession of the Habsburgs, it would become centre of the Habsburg lands in the empire.

Anyway in such a scenario the house of Habsburg becomes more prominent earlier on, but with the kingdom of Bohemia (like the OTL house of Luxemburg) as the centre of their power.

Is Albert of Habsburg still assassinated in 1308?

If that's butterflied away, there could be interesting consequences. In particular, The Electorate of Brandenburg may well become a Habsburg possession. OTL it went first a Wittelsbach and then a Luxemburg Emperor callared it for his family, before another Luxemburg conferred it on a Hohenzollern. If they go on to acquire Pomerania later, you've got an "Austrian Empire" stretching from the Adriatic to the Baltic.

Part I: 1308

Mikestone8 said:

Is Albert of Habsburg still assassinated in 1308?

If that's butterflied away, there could be interesting consequences. In particular, The Electorate of Brandenburg may well become a Habsburg possession. OTL it went first a Wittelsbach and then a Luxemburg Emperor callared it for his family, before another Luxemburg conferred it on a Hohenzollern. If they go on to acquire Pomerania later, you've got an "Austrian Empire" stretching from the Adriatic to the Baltic.

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Problems in Bohemia could prevent Albert from personally stopping a rebellion in Swabia in 1308. OTOH this doesn't change the difficult relation John of Habsburg (OTL John Parricida), duke of Swabia, had with his uncle Albert.

In the treaty of Rheinfelden of 1283 Rudolph II of Habsburg (11 at the time) the father of John had to give up Austria and Styria to his elder brother Albert (originally the two brothers got these duchies together) and he would be compensated with territories in the original western possessions of the house of Habsburg (in Swabia, Alsace and modern day Switzerland). Rudolph II was created duke of Swabia in 1289, but his early dead in 1290 and their father's (Rudolph I of Germany) dead in 1291 prevented a good resolution.

The final straw was the fact that Albert made his son Rudolph king of Bohemia and not John, whose mother actually was a Premyslid princess. After that John wanted revenge, not realizing or caring that this would hurt the ambitions of the house of Habsburg.

Unless Albert finally reaches an agreement with John, for instance John gets the Original Western possessions of the house of Habsburg or at least some, which were promised to his father, which could be used to make John an actual duke of Swabia; John will (after 1306) plot against his uncle.

An agreement doesn't seem likely, Albert had refused it since 1296; it is out of character for Albert and he had a large family (4 sons) of his own. Furthermore Albert had more enemies, but they are more likely to revolt than to murder him.
Finally murder plots can be discovered or fail, however unless Albert finally gives John some compensation, otherwise John won't stop plotting.

The best way to prevent this plot would require an earlier pod were Rudolph II lives longer, so that Rudolph I of Germany can leave (a part of) the Western possessions of the house of Habsburg to the father of John, Rudolph II of Swabia (count Rudolph V of Habsburg).

Part II: Brandenburg

Mikestone8 said:

Is Albert of Habsburg still assassinated in 1308?

If that's butterflied away, there could be interesting consequences. In particular, The Electorate of Brandenburg may well become a Habsburg possession. OTL it went first a Wittelsbach and then a Luxemburg Emperor callared it for his family, before another Luxemburg conferred it on a Hohenzollern. If they go on to acquire Pomerania later, you've got an "Austrian Empire" stretching from the Adriatic to the Baltic.

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To get an ''Austrian Empire'' from the Adriatic to the Baltic, there also is the alternative option of acquiring the Polish crown (). Since the king of Bohemia had a claim on the throne of Poland.

Anyway a Habsburg Brandenburg isn't certain. The final Ascanian margrave died young in 1320 and his predecessor died childless in 1319. If the last OTL Ascanian margrave survives, he will get married and may have had a heir to continue his house.
The OTL king of the Romans, Louis IV of Bavaria (he would later be crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 1328) had a distant family relation with last Brandenburg margraves and succeeded in making his son margrave in 1323, which neglected the Saxon line of the house of Ascania.

The Habsburg already acquired (in this scenario) the kingdom of Bohemia (including an electoral vote) and his house would eventually inherit territories of the Meinhardinger (when their line died out), Carinthia and Carniola (and Tirol (not certain)). So there will be a lot resistance against a Habsburg king (or Emperor), who gives another fief which was reverted to the empire to a member of his house (of Habsburg). If they want to acquire more of these important fiefs, they will probably be required to have a claim on them, at least during the reign of this Habsburg. However if the Brandenburg Ascanians die out, the kingdom of Bohemia will probably acquire Lusatia.

The Saxon Ascanians and the Bavarian Wittelsbachs had a claim, but the Habsburgs may get away with giving these territories to an ally.

Carinthia

Henry of Carinthia was married to the eldest sister of last Premyslid king Anna. Furthermore there also was the younger sister of the last Premyslid king Elisabeth in OTL Elisabeth married with John of Luxemburg, the son of the first Luxemburg king of the Romans (later Holy Roman Emperor) Henry VII and the Luxemburg dynasty would depose Henry of Carinthia.

The Meinhardinger Henry of Carinthia was the son of Meinhard II of Gorizia-Tyrol, an ally from the Habsburger Rudolph I of Germany, which was rewarded with Carniola* and the duchy of Carinthia* (after the defeat of Ottokar II). Since Rudolph I of Germany wasn't allowed to give all those reverted fiefs to his own dynasty. (*= with the provision that these fiefs would be inherited by the house of Habsburg, if the male line of the Carinthian Meinhardinger would die out.)

The marriage of Henry with Anna was a treat to the ambitions of the Habsburgs and made them rivals. In OTL king Albert of Germany and Rudolph of Bohemia forced Henry to flee from Bohemia and they kept parts of his possessions (Carinthia, Carniola and Tyrol) occupied.

WI Henry and later his brothers are defeated and slain in battle?
Albert could add Carinthia and Carniola to the Habsburg lands of Austria and Styria and he may even get away with Tyrol.
However in return he's forced to give the western (original) Habsburg possessions (with the provision that these territories were to return to his line if the male line of John would die out) to his nephew John of Habsburg, duke of Swabia, as a compensation. (So a split between the Austro-Bohemian Branch of the house of Habsburg and a Swabian branch.)

This now leaves a possible marriage of Elisabeth and a new marriage of Anna. As long as Bohemia remains rebellious, their marriages will remain important, since whoever marriage with either Anna or Elisabeth gains a claim on the throne of Bohemia. So the Habsburgs will probably want to have a say in this, but as long as they don't control the entire kingdom of Bohemia, these princesses could be more free and lead a rebellion with her husband. Such a husband is either a foreign king/prince or from an important house in the empire, since they would need help against the (Habsburg) king of the Romans and the Habsburg king of Bohemia. OTOH if the Habsburgs are victorious they could ''convince'' them to marry a candidate they approve (Habsburg or ally) or to become a nun.

Any ideas for marriage candidates?

hmmm It seems that no one (except me) is interested (in an earlier Habsburg Bohemia), but OTOH maybe I should have thought this through a bit better before posting this thread.

Or maybe I should just stick with Burgundy and Charles V?

Finally I quickly edited a map I found on wiki. It depicts the TTL* situation in 1400. The territories of the Austro-Bohemian branch of the house of Habsburg are shown in (lighter) purple (Brabant-Limburg in darker purple is an independent state of the empire) and are all a part of the Lands of the Bohemian Crown; the possessions of the Swabian branch (Aargau, Alsace (Sundgau), Breisgau etc.) of the house of Habsburg are shown in brown (-ish).

(*= although due to the ''overwhelming number of responses'' I doubt that I will continue this thread...)

Janprimus said:

Any ideas for marriage candidates?

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What about a French candidate? Philip V (who was by then only the second son of Philip IV) had the right age to marry anyone of them.

Gonzaga said:

What about a French candidate? Philip V (who was by then only the second son of Philip IV) had the right age to marry anyone of them.

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hmmm an earlier Capet-Habsburg rivalry....

I'm wondering if Philip could gather enough support to expel the Habsburg from Bohemia. Certainly a part from the Bohemian nobility would support him, maybe France, OTOH Albert I is still king of the Romans and the Habsburg base of power is much closer.

So I'm inclined to eventually resolve this conflict with a marriage of the eldest daughter of Philip and Elisabeth (Anna?) and the eldest son of Rudolf and Elisabeth Richenza, which would somewhat improve the legitimacy of the Habsburgs in Bohemia.

Janprimus said:

hmmm an earlier Capet-Habsburg rivalry....

I'm wondering if Philip could gather enough support to expel the Habsburg from Bohemia. Certainly a part from the Bohemian nobility would support him, maybe France, OTOH Albert I is still king of the Romans and the Habsburg base of power is much closer.

So I'm inclined to eventually resolve this conflict with a marriage of the eldest daughter of Philip and Elisabeth (Anna?) and the eldest son of Rudolf and Elisabeth Richenza, which would somewhat improve the legitimacy of the Habsburgs in Bohemia.

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It could also have consequences in the French succession question. Maybe the death of Louis X is butterflied due to his involvement in the Bohemian Wars (also, there is his war in Flanders that could be affected).

Gonzaga said:

It could also have consequences in the French succession question. Maybe the death of Louis X is butterflied due to his involvement in the Bohemian Wars (also, there is his war in Flanders that could be affected).

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Apparently IOTL Louis X either really drank too much and/or was poisoned...
Being on campaign may prevent him from these indulgences.
If the Bohemian conflict turns out to be long and costly, France might be forced to a more diplomatic approach in Flanders, like OTL Philip V did.
What I can find about Philip V is, that he was a capable politician, but not much about his skills as a military commander. The latter will be useful in a Bohemian campaign.

Janprimus said:

What I can find about Philip V is, that he was a capable politician, but not much about his skills as a military commander. The latter will be useful in a Bohemian campaign.

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I don't think he personally needs to be a good military commander. He only needs to find a good commander that is loyal to him, and then use his political skills to take advantage of the victories.

Gonzaga said:

I don't think he personally needs to be a good military commander. He only needs to find a good commander that is loyal to him, and then use his political skills to take advantage of the victories.

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I'm inclined to have a struggle for a few years (upto the death* of Louis X), but ultimately the Habsburgs prevail, although they will have to compensate Philip and agree to the marriage I mentioned earlier. Maybe Philip's position in Bohemia is getting worse and since Louis X died*, he becomes the king of France.
With Philip becoming Philip V of France, there may be a growing opposition against Philip in the Empire, but at the same time by becoming so powerful the imperial ambitions of the house of Habsburg may be hurt in the short run. The electors OTL had a good reason to elect the relatively weak Adolph of Nassau, Rudolph of Habsburg and John of Luxemburg (the latter two managed to become much more important). However in the long run they will become the most important candidate; besides with this kind of 'Hausmacht' they are also the prime candidate to become anti-king (of the Romans)...

*= I don't believe that he will change his ways; he may life longer, but I doubt he'll get old...

Janprimus said:

I'm inclined to have a struggle for a few years (upto the death* of Louis X), but ultimately the Habsburgs prevail, although they will have to compensate Philip and agree to the marriage I mentioned earlier. Maybe Philip's position in Bohemia is getting worse and since Louis X died*, he becomes the king of France.

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It would be funny if Louis X lives long enough to have his daughter be an adult (and married to someone important) when he dies. Meanwhile, you could have Philip be more successful as king of Bohemia and try to be elected Emperor. You would have at the same time a struggle over the Salic Law in France and to stop Philip from gaining all that power.

Gonzaga said:

It would be funny if Louis X lives long enough to have his daughter be an adult (and married to someone important) when he dies. Meanwhile, you could have Philip be more successful as king of Bohemia and try to be elected Emperor. You would have at the same time a struggle over the Salic Law in France and to stop Philip from gaining all that power.

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That's an idea, but it wouldn't be a Habsburg Bohemia (so basically an other scenario and not my initial idea). Although giving the popularity of Rudolph of Bohemia in Bohemia, it will be a long affair; certainly if Albert remains king of the Romans, without that support Rudolph may very well end up in trouble. OTOH after the defeat of Henry, Rudolph would have build up his position.