I've been looking into an idea for a timeline. The Idea is to keep Wales an Independent nation throughout its history. I've been looking for a PoD for a while but I can't quite find one. I want the PoD to be during the reign of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, and between the years of 1039 and 1063. I feel somewhere in that timespan lay the best opportunity for an everlasting independent Wales.
Cymru am byth, Wales Forever
- Thread starter IchBinDieKaiser
- Start date
Alex Richards
Donor
If Lleyln can unite the Prinicpalities of Northern Southern Wales, it becomes a lot harder for the Normans to gain a foothold.
If I remember correctly the Welsh power in the 1060's had been severly weakened by Harold Godwinson who crushed the forces of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn in the campaigns of 1062-1063. Harold and his brother Tostig invaded Wales and drove Gruffydd to take refuge in Snowdonia where he was betrayed by his own men, beheaded by them and his severed head and the figurehead of his ship were sent to Harold as a sign of submission.
The Welsh campaigns of 1062-1063 came about because of the death of Ælfgar - the son of Leofric Earl of Mercia.
When Earl Godwin of Wessex was exiled by King Edward the Confessor Ælfgar gained Harold Godwinson's lands as he became Earl of East Anglia but when Godwin reconsiled with the king in 1052 (a year after his exile) East Anglia reverted to Harold until Godwin's death when Harold became Earl of Wessex and East Anglia reverted to Ælfgar.
When Ælfgar fell out with the King and was exiled he went to Ireland where he raised 18 ships and went to Wales where he joined with Gruffydd and fought against the forces of Edward the Confessor. They marched into Hereford and defeated Ralph the Timid, Earl of Herefordshire, and persued Ralph's forces afterward, killing many and destroying Hereford itself.
Harold Godwinson was charged by King Edward to deal with this threat and raised an Army against Gruffydd and Ælfgar and chased them back into South Wales but the issue was eventually solved by diplomacy as Ælfgar and King Edward were themselves reconsiled and Ælfgar was reinstated as Earl of East Anglia and latterly Earl of Merica.
Gruffydd soon conquered the rest of Wales and became King of Wales, he won another victory of the Confessor's forces near Glasbury and reached and agreement with King Edward to accept the new border.
The death of Earl Ælfgar followed by Harold Godwinson gaining responsibility for Hereford was the beginning of Gruffydd's down fall. Shortly after that Harold convinced King Edward to allow him to invade Wales and the result I've already told.
Have Ælfgar live longer and Harold die sooner and chances for Welsh independence improve. The problem then comes from Tostig who was ambitious in his own right and from across the sea and William the Conquerer who will likely still have his eye on the British Isles.
The Welsh campaigns of 1062-1063 came about because of the death of Ælfgar - the son of Leofric Earl of Mercia.
When Earl Godwin of Wessex was exiled by King Edward the Confessor Ælfgar gained Harold Godwinson's lands as he became Earl of East Anglia but when Godwin reconsiled with the king in 1052 (a year after his exile) East Anglia reverted to Harold until Godwin's death when Harold became Earl of Wessex and East Anglia reverted to Ælfgar.
When Ælfgar fell out with the King and was exiled he went to Ireland where he raised 18 ships and went to Wales where he joined with Gruffydd and fought against the forces of Edward the Confessor. They marched into Hereford and defeated Ralph the Timid, Earl of Herefordshire, and persued Ralph's forces afterward, killing many and destroying Hereford itself.
Harold Godwinson was charged by King Edward to deal with this threat and raised an Army against Gruffydd and Ælfgar and chased them back into South Wales but the issue was eventually solved by diplomacy as Ælfgar and King Edward were themselves reconsiled and Ælfgar was reinstated as Earl of East Anglia and latterly Earl of Merica.
Gruffydd soon conquered the rest of Wales and became King of Wales, he won another victory of the Confessor's forces near Glasbury and reached and agreement with King Edward to accept the new border.
The death of Earl Ælfgar followed by Harold Godwinson gaining responsibility for Hereford was the beginning of Gruffydd's down fall. Shortly after that Harold convinced King Edward to allow him to invade Wales and the result I've already told.
Have Ælfgar live longer and Harold die sooner and chances for Welsh independence improve. The problem then comes from Tostig who was ambitious in his own right and from across the sea and William the Conquerer who will likely still have his eye on the British Isles.
Without Harold, Tostig and Harald Hardrada of Norway could be slugging it out with William of Normandy for England and Wales might not be their immediate concern.
Your biggest problem here is Welsh ... politics, for lack of a better word. Firstly, if one of the princes conquered other parts of Wales, he tended to split the land among his sons. That's got to stop. Also, the family/clan/feud based society was really unhelpful. Get your hands on a copy of Heather Rose Jones's "Welsh History 101B" (a song), with lines like:
"My brother's wife's fourth cousin's foster son Gruffudd is best for the job [prince]... What matter that Rhys is the old Prince's nephew, he's exiled to Ireland and cannot return" ('cause the narrator keeps having Rhys's boats burnt...)
Ireland had some of the same problems, but Wales had it worse, IMO.
Welsh society would have to change dramatically to have the internal cohesion needed to stave off conquering by a foreign power.
Llywelyn Fawr or Llywelyn the Great united much of of Wales. He was on good terms with King John having married John's bastard child Joan. He was recognized was Prince of Wales by England and France. His oldest son inherited all his lands instead of splitting it amongst his 4 sons. During the Baron rebellion some March Lords recognized Llywelyn as their Lord but instead of actually sending welsh settlers and troops in he refused there offer of vassalage. It quite possible that he could have created an independent Wales if he excepted the March lords fealty. His son was going to marry some really important March Lords only daughter but that fell through