Different slaves in the Americas besides Africans

Strategos' Risk · Oct 27, 2008

From what I've learned, European colonists attempted to use Natives as slaves, but they were not good because they died of disease. Then they tried to use fellow Europeans as indentured servants, but eventually Bacon's Rebellion soured them all on the idea.

However, what if the colonists used other races as slaves? An example would be in Empty America where at first schismatic Greek and Russian Orthodox were eligible to be used as slaves in their analogue to the Caribbeans and Deep South, as were Baltic pagans. Doug Hoff mentions Central Asian pagans, he goes as far to say

CANATIES - Local name for Central and West Asian slaves transported to the Ursulines in the 13th Century. Derivation of the name for such slaves sold in Egypt during the same period. Canatie, or Cuman, language and culture are largely submerged by the influx of large number of slaves from sub-Saharan Africa, but remain an important presence in the older European colonies such as San Erasmus [Cuba] and the Kingdom of Foix [Hispaniola].

Of course, EA isn't the best example, since it has a POD of very very long time ago and a drastically different settling of a drastically different New World. But you get the idea- different races in addition to or instead of (west) Africans. So who else could have been used as forced labor?

Think how attractive Brazilians would be even more attractive in this world.

Hierophant · Oct 27, 2008

I have always thought it would be interesting if the Spanish and Portuguese ship the Jews and Moors to the Americas, adding new cultures to the mix early on.

Gladi · Oct 27, 2008

Bright day
If you delay Fall of Constantinople the Christian Mediterrean will have still acces to modern-day Ukraine.

mojojojo · Oct 27, 2008

Strategos' Risk said:
Think how attractive Brazilians would be even more attractive in this world.

What do you mean

DuQuense · Oct 27, 2008

Then they tried to use fellow Europeans as indentured servants, but eventually Bacon's Rebellion soured them all on the idea.

There were also White Slaves. King Jame's are one of the only prison system to make a profit.

john · Oct 27, 2008

mojojojo said:
What do you mean

I think he means that Brazilians would be even hotter ITTL than they are OTL

CanadianGoose · Oct 27, 2008

Slavs will die on Caribbean plantations as flies (beating white slaves' mortality rates IOTL), but there're many of them. So yeah, more trade in Slav slaves will (kinda) work.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 27, 2008

Justin Green said:
I have always thought it would be interesting if the Spanish and Portuguese ship the Jews and Moors to the Americas, adding new cultures to the mix early on.

Maybe they would become a class of literate skilled slaves?

DuQuense said:
There were also White Slaves. King Jame's are one of the only prison system to make a profit.

What kind of slaves were they? Irish? The Irish always become slaves in these scenarios.

HJ Tulp · Oct 27, 2008

I do know that after the abolishment of slavery there were Chinese and Javanese send to the West Indies as intendured servants.

General Mung Beans · Oct 27, 2008

Strategos' Risk said:
From what I've learned, European colonists attempted to use Natives as slaves, but they were not good because they died of disease. Then they tried to use fellow Europeans as indentured servants, but eventually Bacon's Rebellion soured them all on the idea.

However, what if the colonists used other races as slaves? An example would be in Empty America where at first schismatic Greek and Russian Orthodox were eligible to be used as slaves in their analogue to the Caribbeans and Deep South, as were Baltic pagans. Doug Hoff mentions Central Asian pagans, he goes as far to say

Of course, EA isn't the best example, since it has a POD of very very long time ago and a drastically different settling of a drastically different New World. But you get the idea- different races in addition to or instead of (west) Africans. So who else could have been used as forced labor?

Think how attractive Brazilians would be even more attractive in this world.

East Indians from India, Indonesia, Sri Lanka or Arabs from the Middle East.

rcduggan · Oct 27, 2008

If the Spanish got a hold on Morocco in the 16th century, you could see Arabs and Berbers from there being used as slaves.

WestVirginiaRebel · Oct 27, 2008

What about importing slaves from China (at least later on).

Strategos' Risk · Nov 15, 2008

Justin Green said:
I have always thought it would be interesting if the Spanish and Portuguese ship the Jews and Moors to the Americas, adding new cultures to the mix early on.

Could the Iberians have tried to enslave Jews and Moors?

Also, why weren't white slaves used besides the indentured servitude system falling apart after Bacon's Rebellion? Is it because white people sunburn too easily?

I haven't read this yet but it's probably helpful.

carlton_bach · Nov 15, 2008

Strategos' Risk said:
Could the Iberians have tried to enslave Jews and Moors?

It's not like thewy didn't try, but enslavement and abduction in the Mediterranean was always a two-way street and the Moors fought back quite competently. You had estabilshed ransoming systems and such, and I'm not sure the Moorish kingdoms would have reacted well to having potential returnees shipped off to the Americas. Not to mention the demand for oarsmen that competed for captive Muslim slaves.

The main reason that African slaves were used was that they were available in large numbers and without diplomatic strings attached. You could buy them like a commodity, didn't have to hunt them, there was no retaliation and nobody ever came to negotiate ransoms. I'm not sure there were many places in the 16th and 17th-century Atlantic world that could match this set of circumstances.

Hendryk · Nov 15, 2008

If the Western powers gained an earlier foothold into India, they could decide to ship the locals over to their American colonies as indentured servants. The British did it to some extent in OTL, and some 40% of Trinidad's population is descended from East Indians.

Arafeel · Nov 15, 2008

Whit wear used as slaves, epsecialy irish, crommwell shipp a hughe amout out, but they did not doe very well in the caribean sugar fileds and died.

Neroon · Nov 15, 2008

I am guessing one problemn with white slaves would be that if some escaped from a plantation they could easily blend in with the locals upon reaching the next larger settlement. Whereas escaped African slaves can be identified on sight as Africans. It is also much easier to rationalize them as subhuman, etc if they look very different.

Strategos' Risk · Nov 15, 2008

Hm, well I'm wondering if the Iberians could ever enslave their religious minorities in a non-chattel way, using them as skilled unpaid labor.

Of course, professional-class literate people/craftsmen and slavery don't mix, unless the former are trading with the latter.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 27, 2009

Would white slaves end up intermarrying with black slaves?

Aside from the disease factor, why didn't the Europeans ever try enslaving the indigenous peoples of the Americas through chattel slavery?

NothingNow · Oct 27, 2009

Strategos' Risk said:
Would white slaves end up intermarrying with black slaves?

Aside from the disease factor, why didn't the Europeans ever try enslaving the indigenous peoples of the Americas through chattel slavery?

I imagine It'd be like breaking in a horse really. They'd be Too independent and High strung so they'd run more often and do so successfully because they know the land. Also they'd be harder to find because nomads can just leave in the middle of the night if it gets to tough where they are.