WI 9/11 & AQ Christian based

NapoleonXIV

Banned
WI 9/11 was done by a group of Christians? A group like Al-queada that was organized so as to "industrialize" terrorism. There is certainly nothing I know of in the history of Christianity that indicates it message could not be as easily perverted to this as could Islam's.

But how would the US react to knowing its enemy was internal rather than external (at least in base)? How would we feel about the off channel preachers diatribes exhorting a coming apocalypse and the Christian's 'struggle' in the modern world. Would we make excuses and try to mollify those who sought justice for the thousands dead or would we bite the bullet and go after these terrorists as much as we now seek Osama?
 
Well, what kind of Christians? Armenian Orthodox? Coptic? Unitarians? New Revised Big Golden Book Of Christianity? Or are we talking good old Slick-haired Hillbilly TV Preacher Christians?

Just like Al-Qaeda is based on a fraction of a sliver of an extreme branch of Islam, we need to know which Christian sliver our new terrorists come from....

I think the immediate response would be "They are not REAL Christians", much like many in the Muslim community distanced themselves from Wahabbiism (at least around here they did), by announcing that the terrorists were NOT real Muslims.
 

Raymann

Banned
You'd need to change the Bible for that to happen, Christians believe that you have hardship in this world, you have to turn the other cheek, and that all your rewards (unspecified) are in the after-life. Islam teaches that if you fight the good fight now, you will have your rewards in this life and the next and if you should die, well we all know about the virgins. Islam could very well be mostly a peaceful religion but it lends itself very easily to a militant side.

I say the military should set up a "dating service" for the terrorists and help them meet their dates
 
I remember hearing that the correct translation is actually crystal clear raisins. But that was during a comedy show by Robin Williams so the authenticity is doubtful
 
The ONLY place I know of

where so called "Chrisians" are killing each other for CHrist, is Ireland! Of course, THEY aren't really killing each other for Christ either---they are killing each other for political control of the teensey weensey little island they live together on, like it was of some great importance, and CHRIST is only a (very, very, sorry) excuse! The Al Quaidas and Wahabbis on the other hand, really ARE true believers, and their religion. ideplogy. and hatreds are all closely intertwined.

You CAN of course, go back in history, 15th, 16th and 17th century Europe are EXCELLENT places to look, BUT, for a couple of centuries, Christians have become pretty secularized, and except for the travesty of the holocaust, Christians don't act that way, not anymore, and we no longer can relate to those who do!

That is why so MANY westerners sincerely disbelieve the very real and ernest desires of many Muslims to kill them all in the name of Allah!
 

Straha

Banned
if it was pat robertson like types expect both parties to stop courting the "moral majority" types.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
JLCook said:
where so called "Chrisians" are killing each other for CHrist, is Ireland! Of course, THEY aren't really killing each other for Christ either---they are killing each other for political control of the teensey weensey little island they live together on, like it was of some great importance, and CHRIST is only a (very, very, sorry) excuse! The Al Quaidas and Wahabbis on the other hand, really ARE true believers, and their religion. ideplogy. and hatreds are all closely intertwined.
The Christians in Yugoslavia have been doing a pretty good job of cutting each other up. Sure, most people have focused upon the Orthodox Serbs and the Muslim Bosniacs, but the Orthodox and the Catholics were also at one another's throats, both in Bosnia and in Croatia.

Also, in Uganda, the "Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God" has been responsible for the deaths of upwards of a thousand people - mostly members of the sect.

I'll grant you that nationalism plays a large roll in these religious conflicts (well, the Yugoslavian ones at least), but this is also true for the Middle East. Groups like al-Qaeda have manifest political ambitions and are no more representative of "true Islam" than the Bosnian Serb Army is representative of Orthodoxy.

Islam teaches that if you fight the good fight now, you will have your rewards in this life and the next and if you should die, well we all know about the virgins.
Muslims are no more likely to believe in receiving virgins in heaven than Christians believe in angelic choirs with harps. As for claiming that "Islam" teaches something on the basis of texts a thousand years old, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Islam continued to grow after the 8th century, as did Christianity. Just because a few reactionaries cling to a misguided reconstruction of early Islam doesn't mean we should judge the whole religion because of them; after all, Christianity has its reactionaries as well. I'd no more point to a Papal Bull issued by Pope Urban the II as the definitive account of modern Catholic ethics than I would point to these a7aadiith that al-Qaeda and their detractors in the West are fond of quoting.

Likewise, some reactionary Christians do have a political agenda in the United States. One group is attempting to establish itself in South Carolina and secede from the US in an attempt to create a more Godly government. They claim that they will attempt to attain their goal through non-violent means but historically secessionist movements rarely achieve their goals through such means. Such a group, with reactionary religious and political aspirations, could provide the genesis for a Christian terrorist group with more universal goals than the IRA or the BSA.
 
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NapoleonXIV

Banned
JLCook said:
where so called "Chrisians" are killing each other for CHrist, is Ireland! Of course, THEY aren't really killing each other for Christ either---they are killing each other for political control of the teensey weensey little island they live together on, like it was of some great importance, and CHRIST is only a (very, very, sorry) excuse! The Al Quaidas and Wahabbis on the other hand, really ARE true believers, and their religion. ideplogy. and hatreds are all closely intertwined.

You CAN of course, go back in history, 15th, 16th and 17th century Europe are EXCELLENT places to look, BUT, for a couple of centuries, Christians have become pretty secularized, and except for the travesty of the holocaust, Christians don't act that way, not anymore, and we no longer can relate to those who do!

That is why so MANY westerners sincerely disbelieve the very real and ernest desires of many Muslims to kill them all in the name of Allah!

Yes, except for that small difficulty with 6 million or so Jews in LIVING MEMORY, we've entirely gotten over that.

Going by numbers alone, this means more people were killed for the sake of religion between 1941 and 1945 than in all of recorded history. And this was in the lifetimes of some people still living now. While I agree with you that Naziism was an aberattion and not at all representative of normal, Western beliefs it was the ruling ideology of one of the most prosperous and powerful Western nations for about 12 years no more than a few decades ago.

You've never heard of the inhabitants of Jonestown or the Branch Davidians?
The impulse to suicide and homicide are one and the same, say psychologists. If people are willing to kill themselves they are certainly willing to take a few with them

Certainly, most, the vast VAST majority, of Christians wouldn't do this. Neither would most Muslims, it only takes a few with the mindset of Osama or Tim McVeigh.

But how would we deal with it in any case. I agree most Christians would want to place themselves VERY distantly from any such people but would the people permit it.

What if Falwell was to make his amazingly callous, cruel and insensitive remarks before it was found out who the perpetrators were and then they were discovered to be Christians. What would happen to him? Would we still see the spectacle of this murderer's apologist being interviewed on TV as a 'major Christian spokesman' as I did some weeks ago?
 
The LRA in Uganda isn't a true Christian organisation at all, just an evil, self-serving cult led by Joseph Koney, another megalomaniacal mass-killer combining the qualities of David Koresh or Jim Jones and Foday Sankoh or Charles Taylor, who uses 'Christianity' as a shield for the atrocities committed in his name.
 
Raymann said:
You'd need to change the Bible for that to happen, Christians believe that you have hardship in this world, you have to turn the other cheek, and that all your rewards (unspecified) are in the after-life. Islam teaches that if you fight the good fight now, you will have your rewards in this life and the next and if you should die, well we all know about the virgins. Islam could very well be mostly a peaceful religion but it lends itself very easily to a militant side.

Actually, you wouldn't need to change the Bible. You would need to change recent history, though. Mainstream (i.e. European and, for want of a better word, Neo-European) Christianity has gone through a process of domestication and secularisation second to few others, and similar to what happened to many branches of Islam in the 10th and 11th centuries (and is happening now). After all, if you look in the right places of the NT you can find nice quotes to the tune of 'hate your father and mother' or 'sell your coat and buy a sword' (which, incidentally, indicates that either the disciples were well dressed, or military hardware was going very cheaply indeed). They just don't emphasise them any more.

If there had been a more militant strain of Christianity surviving or being restored in the Western mainstream, we might well see a Christian Al Quaeda-analogue. Given the level of fear of Islam that now exists in many western countries I am now more afraid than ever of it, in fact. People have been angry about Islamic terrorism for a long time, but in my experience people do the most ugly and indefensible things when they're afraid, not when they're angry. Of course, their attacks would be against non-Christian non-US targets, so you have to ask yourself what their version of 9-11 would have been. Mecca? Petronas Towers? The Chinese People's Assembly Building? Any group that attacked US targets would have been brought down long before they got up to anything the size of 9-11 (Al Qaeda had a long period of grace because their attacks wereon foreign soil, and, perversely, because you 'expect' that kind of thing in the Muslim world).

The reaction - shock, I'd assume. On September 11th, I remember fervently hoping that no Palestinians were involved, but I never considered that Fundamentalist Christians might be. Thus, when Al Qaeda was presented as the culprit it didn't surprise me. If a Christian group had been - I don't know. I'm not terribly pro-Christian, anyway, and I'm afraid this could have pushed me farther along. I like to think I have my emotions and thought processes fairly well separated, but to say you're not affected is illusory. Quite a few more people might have been, as well. I could even imagine anti-Fundamentalist demonstrations or pogroms in some places (there is a very Fundamentalist 'Elim' community in our city that could well have become a target). What next?

If the group responsible had been domestic, I'd envision an even tougher version of PATRIOT (though also a more controversial one as more people would feel themselves under suspicion by association) and a lengthy period of less interventionist foreign policy as America attempts to exorcise her own demons. The fallout could get nasty in the medium term, especially as it reinforces the perceived political divide between Christians and Secularists. Fortunately, most secularist politicians are unlikely to make hay out of it, but some will, and that could get ugly, too. Imagine Reopublican candidates juxtaposed with the image of the burning towers and the face of whoever is the culprit. That could drive some Christian Republicans into the same relativist camp some left-wingers now find themselves in. I woulddefinitely expect support for government policy to peter out sooner and become a lot more painful than OTL. Just remember the debates after Oklahoma City and raise to the power of ten.

An attack by a foreign group (and there are Christian groups out there who are both violent and consider America an aberration) would likely have brought very similar reactions as OTL, though with different targets. Of course, actual foreign wears areunlikely as there is, to my knowledge, no majority-Christian state at the moment that would consider sheltering terrorists after such an attack (with the possible exceptions of the Bosnian Republika Srbska, and perhaps Ossetia), and Saddam Hussein as a scapegoat is right out ("The man has a history of lies. Of course he pretends to be a Muslim, but we know for a fact that the building in the centre of Baghdad our satellite photos show is actually a church...."). Instead, I would expect a closer cooperation with secularist regimes, a great joint intelligence effort, and thus less strain on America's foreign alliances. Places like Poland, Croatia, and indeed Germany mightfind themselves eyed suspiciously as the influence of the churches is scrutinised with greater care.

Internally, there would be the same painful soul-searching, though to a lesser degree. it is hard to accept that your own faith can inspire such a thing. Some Christians will fall from their religion (some may embrace Judaism), and many will proclaim the perpetrators weren't 'real' Christians, but some will also find that the motives of the killers are understandable, though their methods must be condemned. How society deals with them would probably depend on their numbers. if it's just an odd voice in the wilderness, ostracism is the way to go. If it's a few, the whole thing could give rise to paranoia and somekind of 'purity test' for outspoken Christians (like today many people socially expect Muslims to openly distance themselves from Al Qaeda. Nobody ever asked me my position on Hitler...).

Could the fallout give greater power back to the established churches, given that the terrorists are unlikely to be mainstream Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Reformed or Orthodox? In the medium term, could it give a boost to the Democrats, Labour, and left-wing parties in Europe? I guess thatwould depend on how close to the mainstream the perpetrators were. If we're talking radical Creationist Baptists or anti-Vatican II breakaway Catholics the result might be a stronger re-secularisation. If it's Syrian or Maronite Christians, the impact will probably be quite marginal, given they're just another bunch of funny foreigners with murder in their hearts.

Either way, the Chinese government is going to do the happy hamster hop.
 
Melvin Loh said:
The LRA in Uganda isn't a true Christian organisation at all, just an evil, self-serving cult led by Joseph Koney, another megalomaniacal mass-killer...

hmmm. Would you say the same does not apply to Al Qaeda?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Personally, I think a Christian al-Qaedalike organization would target the Dome of the Rock or perhaps even Mecca. The WTC doesn't have as much resonance. In fact, I'm very surprised that some lone wacko hasn't attempted it yet.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Leo Caesius said:
Personally, I think a Christian al-Qaedalike organization would target the Dome of the Rock or perhaps even Mecca. The WTC doesn't have as much resonance. In fact, I'm very surprised that some lone wacko hasn't attempted it yet.

The POD I was suggesting was a Christian Group targeting the US for our moral infractions. You're forgetting that before 9/11 even radical fundamentalist Christians didn't really target Islam as an enemy. By al-Qaedalike I meant similar in organization and tactics, not analogous in beliefs.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
NapoleonXIV said:
The POD I was suggesting was a Christian Group targeting the US for our moral infractions. You're forgetting that before 9/11 even radical fundamentalist Christians didn't really target Islam as an enemy. By al-Qaedalike I meant similar in organization and tactics, not analogous in beliefs.
Even so, the WTC and the Pentagon are not likely targets for an al-Qaedalike Christian group. I could see abortion clinics, the Supreme Court, maybe Congress...
 
Leo Caesius said:
Even so, the WTC and the Pentagon are not likely targets for an al-Qaedalike Christian group. I could see abortion clinics, the Supreme Court, maybe Congress...

...or Hollywood. Airliners simultaneously smash into several of the major film studios, Beverly Hills residences, and Las Vegas Casino Hotels.


Seriously, I agree. Any serious radical Christian group with the funds to support an AlQaeda-like attack are likely to be based in the USA, are likely to be American nationalists, and are unlikely to attack any symbols of American economic or political power.
 

Raymann

Banned
Outside of a few deranged indivisuals, I doubt that right-wing American extremists groups would actually attack something or someone save the occasional abortionist. Their anti-government mindset is more to the tune of getting away from government then attacking it. Ruby Ridge, the Branch Davidians, all of them were on the defensive, not attacking anyone.

What I'm more afraid of is the left-wing extrimists groups in NA and Europe. The Greenepeace, ELF, and other enviromentalists/animal rights groups who set fires, spike trees, burn GE fields, and vandalize everything else are much more of a threat then anything the right has to offer. Not to choose sides but I'd feel mush safer driving an SUV and working at a powerplant in the South then on the West Coast.
 
I agree, Raymann.

Some gov't agency issued a report detailing the danger of an alliance between a US ultra-right group like the Aryan Nations and al-Qaeda. They quoted an AN guy who went on a rant about "Jew York City."

Thing is, some of the wacko lefties might be as inclined to ally with al-Qaeda as any Klan type. The Hispanic radical group MEChA (www.aztlan.net) claims Hispanics are "America's Palestinians" and routinely goes on tirades against the Jews. I'm sure some of them might be up for an alliance (though the Aztlan site is uber-Catholic and that could present problems).
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Oh, No ... It Can't Happen Here!

But it can... and did...
Raymann said:
Outside of a few deranged indivisuals, I doubt that right-wing American extremists groups would actually attack something or someone save the occasional abortionist. Their anti-government mindset is more to the tune of getting away from government then attacking it. Ruby Ridge, the Branch Davidians, all of them were on the defensive, not attacking anyone.
Timothy McVeigh was most definitely not on the defensive. Nor was Ted Kaczynski (although he is arguably a reactionary, not a typically right-wing extremist). What about the Anthrax killer(s)? His (their) targets have included:

Tom Brokaw
Tom Daschle
Pat Leahy
the State Department

That sure sounds like a right-wing nutcase (or possibly a group of right-wing nutcases).

At any rate, we are clearly dealing with more than an "occasional abortionist." Apparently there were over 150 arson attacks, bombings, and shootings at health clinics between 1982 and 1996, resulting in over 13 million dollars in damage. In the last ten years, there have been 24 murders and attempted murders, over 150 bombings and arsons, and 554 anthrax threats, at American health clinics.

One of the groups involved in this particular sort of violence is the Army of God:

Following the terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington on 2001-SEP-11, similar Anthrax letters started appearing in political offices and news media in New York, Washington, and other cities. Some letters actually contained the deadly bacteria. In late October, abortion clinics in 13 states throughout the U.S. received about 150 letters marked "Time sensitive security information enclosed" with return addresses from law enforcement groups. They were mailed from five states. Inside was a powder and a death-threat letter allegedly signed by the "Army of God." That group allegedly advocates violence against abortion providers.
Any group styling itself the "Army of God" and committing murder in the name of its insane ideology strikes me as a rather good Christian analogue to al-Qaeda.
 
OK, so some moral crusader group decides that since the "evil Jews" control the world's economy from the WTC, God wants it destroyed. Since the evil Jew-controlled Congress won't stop baby murderers, then God must want them destroyed, too. And, since the evil Jew-controlled military is only killing to support evil Jewish bankers, well, God must want the Pentagon destroyed too. Besides, less military support for Isreal, the sooner the anti-christ will attack them, the sooner Jesus comes back in all his shining glory.

The WTC planes and Pentagon plane all go off as in OTL, and flight 93, destined for The Capitol building, is stopped.

Investigations identify 19 hijackers as members of some far, far extreme Christian group. Most Christians condemn the attacks for the horrible acts that they are, but a small handful (they are out there) claim that America is being punished for "killing babies", and "moral decay", and other ungodly acts, and warn that more "punishment" is coming.

What next?
 
Let's say that this group has some kind of leader, the equivalent of Osama-bin-Laden (may he rot in hell). We don't really have any kind of Christian fundamentalist nation in which he can hide? So where will he be? The US deep south? The northwest?

Will there be pictures and videos from this guy, like from OBL, warning America to turn its heart to God before we are "punished" again? Will there be searches of churches (like a weird Dr Seuss book....)?

(For the record, I am an Objectivist, Libertarian, Heathen....so this is all speculation.)
 
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