Return Engagements: first impressions: SPOILERS!! SPOILERS!! Did I mention spoilers?

well... having just finished RE, I say I was glad I bought it, but I have mixed feelings about some of it.
First of all, give HT credit for not slavishly copying an OTL campaign, as he is wont to do in other books. The strategies followed by the two sides don't seem to be taken from any real WW2 campaign... or if it is, I haven't recognized it. That said, there are still plenty of OTL counterparts. The South went from shooting it's racial enemy to gassing them in trucks and is now building it's Auschwitz in an isolated area... eerily reminiscent of the first stages of the OTL Holocaust. The CSA style of war is exactly the same as the Nazis: fast moving, air/armor/infantry combined arms attacks, a general lack of naval warfare on their part, etc.
I was skeptical of the CSA reaching Lake Eerie.. until I looked at the map in the book. It doesn't look like that much of a distance, and considering that the CSA had total surprise and way better tactics than the US, I'd say that they would indeed have a shot at it. The US also had the bulk of it's forces over in the east, as they thought the CSA would attack towards Philadelphia.
OK, now the parts I disagree with:
Patton?! For God's sake, Patton?! With all the butterflies in this ATL, just what the hell are the odds there would even be a Patton, or that he would be just like his OTL counterpart?
Japan. Why the hell are they jumping in the war against the US? Is Hawaii really that valuable? Eveything they wanted to get in OTL, they already have here....
Still, I enjoyed the book overall. Now, I'm off to read "Dies the Fire"..

Agree with most bits of this; I like the inclusion of people from OTL, just with major differences in how they act in some respects. Since the entire butterfly effect is theory, it's not quite correct to assume that it has to immediately take shape (butterflies could come into play decades, or even centuries, after any theoretical POD).

About the Japan bit... Why not? The US is fighting what seems to be a losing war, it wasn't able to defeat Japan in the Pacific War, AND it's fighting just about every other country in the world, save the former Central Powers. Why shouldn't Japan jump on what really looks like a carcass? Take as much Pacific territory as it can; if it manages to take Hawaii, that is the end of any threat to Japan ever again (I will really love it if Japan and the US sign a peace and Japan pounces on Hong Kong).

well, a lot of the predictions we made beforehand were wrong, as a lot of us were expecting HT to follow one of the historical campaigns... but there aren't 3 army groups, no siege of Leningrad or Stalingrad counterparts, etc. One development I like is that the US and UK are apparently going to square off in the Atlantic, although the navies haven't clashed yet.... the idea of US/UK carrier battles is a neat one. With the US cut in two though, I wonder how tough it'll be to keep the shipyards on both coasts going at full speed....

Again, Turtledove's premise becomes more ridiculous by the book. Even ignoring the idea of the US allowing its military to decline, after losing two previous wars on its own soil, not to even comment on a Germany run by Prussians doing the same after WWI, but apparently the US navy is smaller and weaker than in OTL as well, despite having a much clearer need for such. And the Japanese entry is just foolish. What do they gain by it, other than Hawaii, which their ally, Great Britain, has a prior claim on? Or does Turtledove expect Japan to fight the US/allies AND the British/allies at the same time? Then again, the entire idea of Japan coming unscathed out of WWI and the second war with the US was just stupid.

Sorry to be so blunt, but how any alleged scholar could imagine Germany just allowing its colonies to be taken away without reprisal after WINNING WWI, is beyond me. The German High Seas fleet, following the British suing for peace, would have broken Japan's fleet like an eggshell.

Alas, a key to alternate history is plausability, and I fear Turtledove is losing his. Who was it on this board who suggested that there were actually TWO Turtledove's writing this stuff, one brilliant and the other not?

Grimm Reaper said:

Who was it on this board who suggested that there were actually TWO Turtledove's writing this stuff, one brilliant and the other not?

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LOL, I said something to that effect. I've also wondered the same about Dean Koontz...

Also, if there are two HT's (or a group), one is merely good, not brilliant. The others just suck.

Grimm Reaper said:

Sorry to be so blunt, but how any alleged scholar could imagine Germany just allowing its colonies to be taken away without reprisal after WINNING WWI, is beyond me. The German High Seas fleet, following the British suing for peace, would have broken Japan's fleet like an eggshell.

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The German fleet can't operate without bases, and they have none of their own in the region. Any they negotiate access to will be gone by the time they arrive, and they'll experience the same joy the Russians did at Tsushima. Most likely they just get the japanese to pay them a niominal price for the islands to save face, German capacity for waging a Pacific campaign is effectively zero.

Haven't read the book yet - my copy is somewhere in transit.
So, from what I've seen - guess the major offensive isn't through Sequoyah. Pushing to lake Erie, however, is perfectly feasible - it is only 2-300 miles across fairly good country. I'm curious about how the war on other fronts develops. Guess I have to hope that the delivery types pull their fingers out.

Japan attacking the USA - a logical follow on from the US-Japan war, a war, I might add that nobody seemed to learn from - certainly not the USA with its Battleship mentality.

Germany giving up the colonies. Odd, I admit. However, the Germans may have decided that maintaining them in wartime was too much effort. Much the same applies to the UK and Hawaii - let the Japanese have the islands as we can't defend them anyway. It also helps keep the Japanese focussed away from India. In many ways the situation is analagous to some of the treaties of the 18th century where conquests were returned as part of a peace settlement.

Letting the armies run to seed. Well, France 1940 OTL gives a perfect example of an army living on a past reputation. Also, as I have said before, I see the USA in this as being very like France in OTL.



To be honest, I see Turtledove's USA being just like France in 1940. Defeat, demoralisation and collapse. Of course, it's hard to make a trilogy from that so I imagine the USA is made of sterner stuff.

The US in OTL had an army of @150,000 in 1939, but an air force possibly superior to the RAF and a navy second to none. The idea that the US in Turtledove's world would have been dramatically weaker is not plausible. Given that the US is now enjoying superior population and resources to OTL, it is hard to imagine the navy being so small. Remember the size of the British or German fleets in WWI, and now remember the US(even without Canada) is economically a match for either. So where are the many carriers and/or battleships we should have had?

And the idea of the Prussians letting everything go to pot...

...well, it appears that Germany is already kicking butt on the Eastern Front.

As for German capacity to wage war in the Pacific, given the American alliance and American capture of Hawaii, I'ld have to say it would be pretty good.

I don't see how the USA has a superior population and resources in Turtledove's world as opposed to OTL - it's lacking the Confederate states for a start. Amongst other things that means a serious lack of oil. It's given up West Texas and will shortly lose Sequhoya. Losing the cross-continental railways will severely reduce the supply of oil etc from California.

does anyone know any websites based on the books, i'm rereading American Front, and like other ppls takes on it...seeing the following he has (rather his books have) just wanted to know

Some comments on Germany:

1) I can only repeat my previous statement that after winning WW1, Germany would never reduce its military unless all Prussians suddenly died of flu. Insteaed, they would be likely to fortify all required places and to do a lot of research of new weapons technologies, as they did after winning in 1870/71.

2) On the other hand, giving up colonies might be probable. Most German colonies turned out to be worthless with the exceptions of East Africa and South West Africa. I think they would have given up Cameroun and New Guinea, and might have sold the Pacific Islands and Tsingtao to Japan. On the other hand, if Japan had occupied them during or after WW1, and the Germans are in an alliance with the US, the Germans would do everything to take them back. If not doing this immediately, they would have acted as soon as Turtledove's Japanese-US war started...

I agree that patton shouldn't exist. He wasnt' even mentioned in the Great War or American Empire books.

As for Daniel Macarthur and Joe Kennedy Jr. For me, I don't necessarily consider them to be the same people as in OTL.

It's entirely possible they are different people altogether. Similar physical features yeah(from the same genes afterall) but they could have been concieved at different times, born on different days, etc. So they would not be our Douglas MacArthur and John F. Kennedy per se on a DNA level.

It's not a stretch though that if the two were born they could follow similar lives to our versions of them. MacArthur's father was a general. So even a different son of his would likely follow in his footsteps and have the brashness and stubborness that are likely to just be traits that run in the family.

Same with Joe Kennedy Jr. We havent' seen him in politics yet, but considering his family, it wouldn't be out of the question. And both being in the army, well there was world wars in progress for both. Now if HT would have JK jr. die in this war, that would be something.

As for the unlikely campaign. Remember that Germany in OTL took far more territory than just ohio. And was fighting britain, france, poland, russia and the low countries while doing it.

THe CSA only has to fight the US, and took them by surprise in ohio, while the US's troop concentrations were in the East.

It's totally feasible, IMO.

There was a real Joe Kennedy Jr in OTL. He was a pilot, not of fighters though, killed when his plane exploded in 1944 in the course of some secret mission - a great one for the conspiracy theorists

once again, we get only glimpses of the war in Europe. It looks bad for Germany. IIRC, it's mentioned that the UK/France forces have reached the Rhine, and (Tzarist) Russia is blitzing through the Ukraine. I wonder if the US in this ATL will have to do a D-Day to rescue Germany.... that could be tough with no friendly nations in the area....

On the topic of the European section of the WW2, it looks very bad for the Germans - I recall reading one line referring to fighting near Hamburg, Anglo-French forces having blitzed through Belgium (welcomed as liberators) and the Netherlands. On the other hand the British attempt against Norway put that country firmly in the German camp. This Churchill seems as prone to strategic flights of fancy as the one in OTL.

Talking of strategy, I can't believe the US has only one aircraft carrier, the Remembrance, in the Pacific (and even that had to sail from the Atlantic). I don't recall hearing about any being sunk earlier in the War, so did part of the Peace Treaty ending the Japanese War specify that the USA keep aircraft carriers out?

Finally, the A-bomb - well it seems clear that the CSA won't be developing one just yet. The USA, however, looks like it is, somewhere in West Washington. Just out of curiostiy, i'd love to know how feasible this is. In OTL, a lot of nuclear research was by European emigres - in this TTL I'd assume they would remain in Germany and allies though they are I can't see Germany being that open-handed - and more was from the British, an option obviously precluded in the books. Also, does the USA have the resources to expend on it? This USA is not as rich as the one in OTL and is also fighting for its life.Can it spare men and money on such 'blus sky' research?

Aircraft carriers of USN

The comment with the USS Remembrance is a contradiction to earlier books mentioning that more modern carrier designs had been built by the USN. Does anyone remember (no pun intended) that reference during the Pacific War?
Actually, I would doubt that the US had lost several carriers in the war, anyway.

As for the Germany comments, well, I think Turtledove is not that fond of Germany, so he cannot let them be victorious, even if he has to make unrealistic assumptions. A Blitz through Belgium and the Netherlands is feasible, I think, as well as some raid on Hamburg. But in no way can I imagine the Germans not having a sufficiently large army with powerful tanks after winning WW1...and I also have doubts where the French have rearmed secretly. They simply do not have the territory to hide tanks and large factories. And, no, I do not think Prussian military would be fooled by "Citrus Company" planes resembling fightercraft
The Russians, of course, are a different thing altogether.

French rearmament could have used Russian facilities just as Weimar germnay did in the 1920s, except on a far larger scale.

The Germans have to do more than spot the rearmament; they also have to possess the political will to do something about it in the earl stages, before practical military difficulties with this option become too severe. Presumably, in turtledove'sTL, this political wioll was absent, perhaps due to political problems with the socialists or state governments within Germany, or teh Kaiser's desire for a quiet life. Again, we can only bemoan the lack of information on Europe.

The Kaiser's old age is often talked about in Victorious Opposition. Maybe he was too old truely see France as a threat. None of his advisors could get through to him either perhaps. Lot of supposes in these books.

Matthew Craw said:

French rearmament could have used Russian facilities just as Weimar germnay did in the 1920s, except on a far larger scale.

The Germans have to do more than spot the rearmament; they also have to possess the political will to do something about it in the earl stages, before practical military difficulties with this option become too severe. Presumably, in turtledove'sTL, this political wioll was absent, perhaps due to political problems with the socialists or state governments within Germany, or teh Kaiser's desire for a quiet life. Again, we can only bemoan the lack of information on Europe.

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I agree that the French might rearm in Russia. But I doubt that they would be able to smuggle the tanks (sorry, barrels ) into France in sufficient numbers.

As for the Kaiser, that might be a possibility, but I have my doubts. Wilhelm II. lived until 1941 in OTL and he remained an intelligent and active man. Ok, there always might be some butterflies

Return Engagements finally landed in the UK and I snapped up my copy pdq (for an obscene sum of money I might add).

I'd just like to say a big HA!! to all those who babbled on and on about USA and Japan teaming up. In your faces!

Smugness aside, I've been enjoying this book. It's certainly a lot more twisted that previous books in the saga. The US War Department's almost Machievllan politics are enjoyable as is Clarence Potter's intelligence campaign. I also got a big perverse kick about seeing the Rememberance get sunk which really throws possibilities wide open as did the CSA's reaching of the Great Lakes.

Of all the characters killed off, Anne Collerton is one I didn't want to see. And Willy Knight was disposed of which put pay to the Konrad Adenauer parallel.

The only question now is where HT is going to take the series? We can see the UK is working on Jet Aircraft (they will have a lead over Germany though I don't know how much of one as details are annoyingly scant). The USA is as mentioned earlier, working on the bomb though the fact it's near Canada might prove to be its undoing, particularly as Mary Pomeroy has her bomb-making equipment to hand.

All I can say is that a reasonable job has been made of keeping everything nice and ambiguous - the war has the potential to go either way. The USA are desperate for a Schwerpunkt. The CSA just want to hurt things and are getting their way. Europe...UK/Russia/France to win. The Germans, AH and Ottomans haven't been doing their best to maintain friends and although the English have put Norway in the German camp, one can assume that they have control of Narvik and have cut Germany's supply of Iron Ore as was intended in OTL WW2. Germany are, at least holding their own but I doubt whether it will be for long.