Festung Deutschland: Hitler withdraws into the Reich

Nonny

Banned
What would've been the result of Hitler suddenly developing a siege mentality and quickly pulling back from every front everyone of his soldiers, tanks, artillery, flak guns, aircraft, submarines into the Baltic etc into Germany's borders and river barriers in September 1944, making it one armed camp of 12 million men defending to the death the Vaterland? At that stage, even with the Russians, the attacking Allies would be outnumbered and at the end of their supply lines. Short of atom bombs in August 1945, would Germany have been basically impregnable, assuming they still has access to some oil?
 

Dunash

Banned
With shortened supply lines, the air over the reich becoming one big flak burst, and judging from the fight they put up in OTL, that number of ideologically motivated Nazis compressed into such a space may not be subduable with less than 5 A bombs.
 
1. Hitler'd never done that. He wasn't willing to give up a single sq mile where a German soldier had put his foot on, unless it was totally unavoidable.
2. There were many fanatical Nazis in Germany, but that didn't mean that they were willing to fight for death... in '45, on the one hand they sent kids and old men to the front (armed with a panzerfaust or a single gun) against fully armed Allied troops, but OTOH the nazi party members managed to stay out and let the others fight for them. Talk the talk but don't walk the walk, all hat and no cattle, you know.
 
Yielding the territory may shorten the supply lines in the short run but makes Germany run out of raw materials in the long run. The armanent producton would start falling and the Germans could not stop the Anglo-American and Russian armies forever.

Also you are increasing the number of infantry men by allowing the Allies to freely rectuit in France, Belgium, Poland etc. .You are are also allowing the Allies access to more raw materials and workers .
 
Well, if the Germans do decide to retreat, they will have to use the scorched earth policy. burning, destroying, sabotaging industrial areas. poisoning water supplies, throw out salt in the farms of france etc etc etc...
 
Amit said:
Well, if the Germans do decide to retreat, they will have to use the scorched earth policy. burning, destroying, sabotaging industrial areas. poisoning water supplies, throw out salt in the farms of france etc etc etc...


True, but that woouldn't last forever.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
It's enough to require the atomic mambo

It's not a war winner by any chance at all -

But, it probably would be enough to provide about 4 or 5 months of extra resistance, and nukes would be required.

And alot of them might be required - there's an assumption that Hitler will get instantly overthrown once the first bomb goes off - but he had purged anyone connected to the July plot and was keeping forces in line with military police executions at the bottom and bribes at the top. Look for the allies to start to bomb areas where they think Hitler might be. Look for a few coup attempts to be tried and then to fail. The break might come after five or more bombs with grassroots, rather than elite mutiny , soldiers shooting at MPs, or the Allies starting to drop lists of what towns are next. If the Allies have intel on which towns and regions were more roverepresented in MP units, they could use that in targeting or explicit threats to target.


The ultimate effect of this. Germany is beaten by a combination of bombs, renewed offensives and increasing disorder in the ranks in August 1945.
The Allied meeting line might be slightly to the east, as the Soviets will be taking bigger losses when they run into consolidated German forces, and have less control over logistical areas like Poland, where locals will take over the countryside and, not conveniently killed by the Nazis in all cases.

The other result is that Japan will probably surrender before the Soviets are in position to join that war at all. The US could perhaps save a bomb for them and use it while they're using them on Germany---or, if the Japanese are stubborn enough to not let the bombong of Germany influence their calculations - it still might take only one bomb to make them reconsider.
 
I read somewhere that the two "Japanukes" were the only two we had on hand, and it would be at least several months before we could get another.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Isnt' this close to the scenario that Hitler was trying for with the Battle of the Bulge?

If Hitler pulls back completely from Soviet Territory alone then I think the Russians will leave the war and begin reparations negotiations. If they don't they may be fighting by themselves. I think that even in 1944 few British and Americans will continue support of an all out war entirely for the benefit of France. If H withdraws from France as well...

The Death camps? Reparations and an International Tribunal. Hitler will deny knowledge and have us conveniently purge the SS and maybe even the Wehrmacht for him. We managed to hold our nose and deal with the Russians well enough.

Stalin will not want to break off at first, but will be bought off by German surrender of the rest of Eastern Europe and maybe even German help in setting up puppet states.

Churchill and DeGaulle will stand alone advocating war continuance, against even their own people if H offers substantial reparations, they will be outvoted.

The US will be quite willing to withdraw and go after Japan. German influence in causing a Japanese surrender is another card H might play.

The Casablanca Declaration didn't include Stalin at first. I doubt if any document could withstand combined world opinion against it for long in any case. The Allies were angry, true enough, but would this make them willing to suffer years more of war and death just to get Hitler?

One strategy which he prewar world tried to guarantee peace was counterbalancing Naziism to Communism. The fact that it backfired terribly before is really no reason for most diplomats not to think it won't work again. Particularly since "now we should be able to control this Hitler fellow" :rolleyes:
 
NapoleonXIV said:
Isnt' this close to the scenario that Hitler was trying for with the Battle of the Bulge?

If Hitler pulls back completely from Soviet Territory alone then I think the Russians will leave the war and begin reparations negotiations. If they don't they may be fighting by themselves. I think that even in 1944 few British and Americans will continue support of an all out war entirely for the benefit of France. If H withdraws from France as well...

The Death camps? Reparations and an International Tribunal. Hitler will deny knowledge and have us conveniently purge the SS and maybe even the Wehrmacht for him. We managed to hold our nose and deal with the Russians well enough.

Stalin will not want to break off at first, but will be bought off by German surrender of the rest of Eastern Europe and maybe even German help in setting up puppet states.

Churchill and DeGaulle will stand alone advocating war continuance, against even their own people if H offers substantial reparations, they will be outvoted.

The US will be quite willing to withdraw and go after Japan. German influence in causing a Japanese surrender is another card H might play.

The Casablanca Declaration didn't include Stalin at first. I doubt if any document could withstand combined world opinion against it for long in any case. The Allies were angry, true enough, but would this make them willing to suffer years more of war and death just to get Hitler?

One strategy which he prewar world tried to guarantee peace was counterbalancing Naziism to Communism. The fact that it backfired terribly before is really no reason for most diplomats not to think it won't work again. Particularly since "now we should be able to control this Hitler fellow" :rolleyes:


I disagree the US and Britian took too many casualties and made too many sacrafices for them to drop out of the war without seeing the job through. By 1944 the handwriting was on the wall for Japan so I don't see the US abadoning Europe when it doesn't need to.
 
Britain would probably NOT make any sort of deal that keeps Hitler and/or the Nazis in power with Churchill as PM.

The US is a bit different...there were many critics of "unconditional surrender" in the US, though the only time they really affected anything was with Italy (some hard-core New Dealers insisted on unconditional surrender for Italy even AFTER Mussolini fell and the argument took up valuable time, enabling the Germans to enter Northern Italy). Would they be strengthened or weakened by this development? FDR could probably spin it to support his views..."see, the Germans are retreating! We're winning!"
 

Valamyr

Banned
It would have been a valid approach to the defense of the Reich. Asuming Hitler can somehow be convinced of picking this strategy, I forsee the following scenario.

The plan lets us hope for more efficient defense, in exchange for the loss of long term advantages, which is a fair tradeoff given that short-term survival is at stake. Higher losses for the allies and the soviets attacking Germany, probably less german soldiers gets taken prisoners, and therefore more manpower is available, allowing Germany to stay in fighting shape longer, as long as stockpiles hold.

Because of this, Soviet offensive runs high risks of collapse. The reds were historically nearly exhausted, and would probably refuse to march on if their homeland is freed and if they keep taking heavy losses, with the Oder still nowhere in sight. The German situation would be pretty bad, though, so they'd lose either way. So ether Stalin sees this and waits for the western allies to finish his job, or he goes for the other approach, and signs a truce with the germans that lets him gain as much as possible.

I think the latter approach is quite likely, as this fortress Germany will put the emphasis on its eastern defense. So, according to the terms of his own treaty of Brest-Litvosk, Stalin gains a good chunk of poland, leaving German-annexed parts to Germany (for now), but he also gains hegemony over Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Slovaquia and Finland. This leaves Germany without the ressources they need to fight in the long run, but the Germans agree to these terms as their alternative is to leave their western front hopelessly under-defended. The critical battles are also all due in the short-run. An exchange of prisoners that takes place afterwards also boost German manpower. Lets say this occur early in the year 1945.

The west has still a crushing military superiority over Germany, and theyll definitely win the war, either by nukes or by conventional invasion. The Reds probably realized that, but they needed to stop and reorganize or see their front collapse. Stalin is quite unwilling to let the allies get all of Germany, and might attack again should things move in that direction, with fresh armies of course.

Germany of course move all its forces westwards to defend the border, launching a couple of semi-successful counterattacks ala Ardennes. One of the most successful aspects is the concentration of the remains of the Luftwaffe's fighters to protect the german cities from bombing. The late-war luftwaffe does much better at the task than before, saving countless civilian lives. Hitler's grasp on power is strengthened by his peace pact with the USSR, and he manages to fight on past his OTL death. But late in spring, supplies run critically short, and the Soviets refuse obstinately to sell any to the Reich. (Though some gets smuggled from remaining Balkanic sympathisers, I suppose). Northern Italy is overrun and allied armies marches both on the Rhine and through Tyrol. As defeat looms, another assassination attempt on Hitler fails on the anniversary of the Normany landings, which drives the angered dictator to order more purges. This time, though, he overestimates the scale of the plot and orders too many people shot down. An SS commando ironically assassinate Himmler while another (more loyal, or less depending on the point of view) enters the bunker at gunpoint, killing the Fuhrer and creating another "stab-in-the-back" neo-Nazi fantasy.

Doenitz restores order quickly with the support of the military. Contacts in Sweden and Switzerland leads the German officials to hope to achieve a separate peace if the Nazi leadership vanishes. Several personalities too closely associated with Hitler vanishes. Doenitz makes private calls for an armistice, trying to negociate territorial integrity, especially in the east, in exchange for allowing limited allied occupation. The allies are not satisfied with the first offers, especially with an A-bomb so close to completion, but for now, the regular bombing of german cities stops, a sign that the allies probably believe peace is very near.

But while resistance remains stiff on the Rhine, the newly-crowned german leadership is increasingly accomodating in its terms of surrender, its increasingly difficult to make a case for the use of an A-bomb. (Still uncomplete, anyhow) In the east, however, Stalin begins to fear that the allies are about to give up on unconditional surrender, and leave Germany intact, which does not fall well into his calculations. He hastily plans a renewed offensive.

In the west, the german lines are critically short on ammo, fuel, and morale, the allies have managed to cross the Rhine, and troops are too busy with the interior situation to oppose a continued allied advance. Therefore, on the 10th of July, Germany signs an Armistice at Mainz, recently taken by the allies. The terms are not Unconditional surrender, but they remain harsh. There are some hopes for Germany, though.

They grant legitimacy to Doenitz' temporary military government, but place the security of Germany (and therefore allow the occupation of) in the hands of the allies - the *western* allies, specifically. More annoying for Stalin is that the armistice promises a certain amount of territorial integrity to Germany, and promises not to tear it piecemeal. The re-creation of poland is a condition as well, though Soviet withdrawal from its own part is a pre-condition, a last minute concession. The most important clause is "All German resistance is to stop immediately on the western front, on land, air, and sea". Of course, lands west of the 1937 borders are restored to France immediately, Luxemburg is re-created, and Bohemia passes under allied protection, though for now confined in its 1939 borders. Other territorial details will await a peace treaty.

The main problem emerges behind the scenes as Stalin learns he is not to annex everything all the way to Berlin. In fact, according to the terms of the armistice, he is not either to be granted an occupation zone in Germany, a main German condition to allow unrestricted British and American occupation and "De-nazification".

A critical three weeks go by, during which diplomacy between the western powers and the soviet bloc becomes quite heated. Truman, unlike FDR, sees reason in Churchill's stance that it would be foolish to let the Soviets swallow central Europe after they bailed out on the alliance early. He furthers support that position given that he had angered his british ally by renouncing to Unconditionnal Surrender, which Churchill favoured.

Stalin, on his side, knows that Germany is almost beaten in front of his armies, and believes he can expect that there wouldnt be too much allied resistance to an assault on Germany if he didnt cross the Oder. But as he is about to carry out his plans, Hiroshima explodes in flames. The German ambassador to Kyoto is immediately recieved by the Emperor and convinces him to demand an immediate armistice, not matter how harsh the terms. The second nuclear blast never happens, and peace is signed with Japan a week early, even though they still hold Mandchuria (No soviet attack) when they surrender inconditionally. The only difference is that the treaty bears a formal guarantee to respect the Japanese Emperor and not accuse him of any crimes.

The German government meanwhile is hard-pressed on all sides to restore civil order, explain to the people the crimes of the previous regime, support a substantial occupation army, trade prisonners of war, help with "de-nazification" while preserving its own credibility, and many other things. But Doenitz is still nontheless aware of the threat of an imminent soviet attack on East Prussia and german poland. The current Germano-Soviet border is slightly more favorable to Germany than it was in 1913, and after such a bitter war, the pill that it could remain such is hard to swallow in the Kremlin. Much of that land is supposed to be given back to a free polish state, but Moscow shows no signs of being willing to hand over it's part, written condition for such a retrocession to occur.

Though the German army had been largely disarmed by the occupation powers, order east of the oder is still largely assured by fully armed German soldiers. In fact, to avoid complete capture of the war arsenal, many planes and tanks were shipped east once it began obvious that the allies cared little for what was beyond the Oder. This attitude was one of the main factors that makes Stalin think he can pull a fait-accompli. The WW1 phenomenon of free-corps ensuring eastern defense appears again as veterans organize themselves to protect the eastern territories. Though there are delays due to the developments in Japan, Stalin launches his juggernault against Germany on August the 31st, 1945. Right away, at the border resistance is pretty stiff. Freecorps rapidly organize guerrila operations as professional troops are gathered around Tannenberg as a rallying symbol of resistance. Many Germans now realize the horrors of Nazism, but they still hold no love for the bloodthirsty, and revenge-driven communists in the east, and for them, this battle becomes a way to salvage the national honor after two large scale defeats in 25 years. Of course, the country is in no shape for a real war.

But in Berlin, Doenitz' government calls frenetically for allied protection, invoking the security clauses of the armistice, but the allies do not seem willing to make a move to protect the far-flung polish territories. Calling upon the fact that the armistice demanded only the end of the resistance on the western front, Doenitz orders all available soldiers to take back their weapons, and fill trains bound for Prussia. In some places, friction appears immediately as German troops enter small conflicts with occupation forces to gain control of weapon storages, including a famous incident near Munich where 60 spitfires are stolen overnight from a major British airfield in a commando-like operation and flown east by ex-luftwaffe pilots.

By the time the allies react, almost all the German armed forces are east of the Oder, and the fight is raging on. The only solution of the Allies to restore order is to cross the river themselves as they fear a resurgent German military that takes too much freedom. But by doing so, they are forced to commit themselves increasingly to police a conflict they had thought would be limited to a quick Soviet fait-accompli. In face of staunch German resistance, Washington condamns the soviet assault formally on September 15th, and proclaims on the 22nd that Germany's eastern borders would be defended until the re-creation of a democratic poland. Allied forces, sometimes under contradictory orders, clashes at a few keypoints with the soviets late in the month. The largest of such incidents turned out largely fictional, as fiercy anti-communist General Patton, largely overstepping his bounds, sent a telegram magnifying his small operations into large scale victories and requesting more troops to push back the soviets. Nontheless, the telegram stating "Trapped six soviet divisions between Kutno and Lodz, requesting additional reinforcements to finish the assault on Warsaw and permission to arm German irregulars." scared Allied Command so much that it marked the last day of the conflict.

Rightfully fearing a spiral of escalation, the Allies intervened politically in force, demanding an immediate return to status-quo ante bellum. Faced with few alternatives knowing the extent of the american arsenal, Stalin withdrew bitterly to his July borders, proclaiming in the process the creation of a diminutive "Polish SSR" over the ruins of the old German's "General Government of Poland".

I think I could write more, but Id like to have your opinions on the plausibility of this scenario first. We have a pretty different cold war ahead, with central Europe much more on the allied side, but with Germany politically stronger, though with a very restricted margin of maneuver for now. And of course, with a very bitter Stalin all willing to accelerate his nuclear research to avenge his humiliation.
 
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This seems to be one of the "better" endings for the Second World War--fewer countries under the Soviet boot, the Nazi war criminals (at least the high-ranking ones, though I imagine purges of the SS will soon follow) taken care of, the Nazi atrocities such as the Holocaust ended, the German peoples not ethnically-cleansed from the East, etc.

However, as you said, a future Nazi-type could claim that the coup was a "stab in the back" (though one could also argue that it was Hitler's fault--his assassination was an act of self-defense by the purge-victims, though that puts Himmler in a FAR too nice light). However, with Germany's cities ruined, its armies (for the most part) beaten, and occupied by the West for the time being, it's likely that Germany will behave itself.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I suppose the question is what are defendable borders ? By that time the Nazi-defined borders of the Reich included all sorts of places from Alsace-Lorraine to parts (or all ?) of Belgium, most of Poland, Bohemia-Moravia etc. Add in vassals such as Slovakia, Croatia and whatever Mussolini called that N Italian fascist statelet. Then there's Hungary and Lake Balaton which IIRC Dietrich was still defending OTL in Spring 1945. What about Ploesti ? It just doesn't seem politically or economically feasible...

And even if it was, is it militarily feasible ? What is to prevent a withdrawal becoming a rout ? Troops withdrawing hundreds of miles are going to be demoralised, worried and less than full of fighting spirit. Contrariwise, their pursuers are going to be elated, full of feelings of victory and ever more determined

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
I suppose the question is what are defendable borders ? By that time the Nazi-defined borders of the Reich included all sorts of places from Alsace-Lorraine to parts (or all ?) of Belgium, most of Poland, Bohemia-Moravia etc. Add in vassals such as Slovakia, Croatia and whatever Mussolini called that N Italian fascist statelet. Then there's Hungary and Lake Balaton which IIRC Dietrich was still defending OTL in Spring 1945. What about Ploesti ? It just doesn't seem politically or economically feasible...

And even if it was, is it militarily feasible ? What is to prevent a withdrawal becoming a rout ? Troops withdrawing hundreds of miles are going to be demoralised, worried and less than full of fighting spirit. Contrariwise, their pursuers are going to be elated, full of feelings of victory and ever more determined

Grey Wolf


Very true, armies usually retreat up and down the line when they are being beaten not when they think they are winning and every private in the foxholes knows that much.
 
I suppose that, had Hitler retreated back into Germany's borders and the rest of the world agreed some kind of "containment" policy, Nazi germany would have ended up as some weird, isolated North Korea-style regime. It might even have remained to this day, with a small, dictatorial one-party regime presiding over the extremely impoverished and oppressed masses.
 
Salo Republic

(quote) whatever Mussolini called that N Italian fascist statelet

FYI Greywolf I believe the northern Italian fascist state run by Mussolini during 1943-45 was the Salo Republic.
 
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