Operation Sealion
- Thread starter dmz23
- Start date
Nope.
RN would still have arrived en masse in the Channel within 36hrs and obliterated whatever was there.
With air superiority - or at least contested skies - the RN would have done it with fewer losses than otherwise.
Oh, and the obligatory
for mentioning Seelowe. Do not mention ze war!
RN would still have arrived en masse in the Channel within 36hrs and obliterated whatever was there.
With air superiority - or at least contested skies - the RN would have done it with fewer losses than otherwise.
Oh, and the obligatory
for mentioning Seelowe. Do not mention ze war!Nope.
RN would still have arrived en masse in the Channel within 36hrs and obliterated whatever was there.
With air superiority - or at least contested skies - the RN would have done it with fewer losses than otherwise.
Oh, and the obligatory
Agreed. The RN would have been prepared to suffer significant losses under German guns, even if the Germans had air superiority, in order to prevent the invasion. The only thing which could really have made Sealion work would be the Germans devoting substantial long term support to a surface navy - a few battleships and cruisers, maybe even that carrier they started on.
Nope, in fact the RN might arrive to find the Graf Zeppelin already at the bottom and the Bismarck barely still above water after every bomber the RAF had was thrown at them and the transports.
Techinically thats not a question without a question mark is it?Still,to answer your question,I do not think it would have succeeded.The Kriegsmarine was not close to half the power of the English fleet,they couldnt have made it across I think without taking major losses.Also,due to British maritime superiority,and also,as you said,RAF control of the air,any German forces making there way across would soon find themselves cut off from further support.Well,maybe the Luftwaffen could airlift in some stuff,but it would be only small amounts capable of coming it that way and it would entail a lot of lost planes.In a worst case scenario for the Brits,the Germans would establish a beachhead,take a small area of southeastern England(whatever that is called)then find themselves surrounded.They would try to break for London in a fashion remniscient of Pittsburgh in Settling Accounts,but they would be cut off by a counteroffensive from behind then be slowly beaten down British forces that hopelessly outnumber them.Slowly,over the course of about 4 months,the Germans slowly lose land until they eventually have to surrender.
Four months without any supplies? I doubt it. More like a week or so. But you're right in that even if the Germans had managed a landing, they couldn't have dominated the channel for long enough to supply and reinforce.
Lets see:
- Graf Zeppelin is way out from any scenario resembling OTL as she simply isn't ready.
- Bismark comes into service at about the right time... but she then doesn't have the time for a proper working up period and hence will be rather ineffective in combat.
- U Boat screen? U Boats are good killers of lightly escorted, slow convoys (cruising speed around 10 knots) but are rather less effective against well escorted capital ships (cruising speed between 15 and 18 knots dependent on the situation).
More realistic naval support could hav come from a Kriegsmarine undamaged by naval action in Norway. An earlier POD gives Seelowe a better chance. Maybe he meant Graf Spee - which might have been useful.
1. Yes and no... presuming reduced damage to the germans also means it is possible to consider less damage to the RN (for the German BCs to be undamaged one would presume HMS Glorious escaped for example)
2. Again yes and no... push it too far back and the poms notice the activity earlier and hold more forces back in the UK.
3. A Panzerschiff? Not much more use... minced meat in the face of a true Battleship and in danger against a 'proper' Heavy Cruiser.
An invasion of Great Britain in the face of the far superior RN and after losing the battle for control of the air? Is Hitler carefully choosing the officers and enlisted men he wants killed?
There was no need for the capital ships to bombard the coast line , because the British didn't intend to defend it. They had coastal gun batteries and strong points set up, but these never stopped the germans before and wouldn't have done there either. The First line German infantry divisions landed were reinforced to the point of looking like semi motorised infantry divisions.
British General Allan Brooks correctly recognised that his main chance was to wait until the Nazi land and focus on that spot for a counter attack. Since only 1/2 of his divisions were even fit for combat he had to be careful to gather up his forces. The RAF was going to have to bomb the beaches in the hopes of stemming the tide.The plan was for each landing barge to have a gun platform mounted overhead where army infantry guns, flak and PAK were to be carried and provide what ever fire support they needed and then be 'dismounted' and moved inland after the beaches were secured.
The Stuka would have made short work of the Coastal batteries, while the BoB rages over southern England. At the same time other Stuka wings would be progressively reducing the RN anti invasion fleets , even in their ports. Given the record on these attacks in the summer fall of 1940 , it would probably take 2-3 weeks to neutralise the RN flottilas in the south coast region. While that was going on , the Sealion plan envisaged the KM setting up extremely dense mine barriers [1 mine ever 7-9m] , that should slow the RN considerably and cost them many many ships to cross each day, since the Germans had enough reserve mines to re mine the breaches every day for months if needed.
Plan for use of German captial ships was to sortie ahead of the invasion into the North Atlantic as in Norway, to draw off the RN homefleet. Given that they have months of endurance with replenishment at sea, they could surge into the North Atlantic weeks ahead of the planned invasion and lead the 'Home Fleet' on a wild goose chase. It would be better if they went of in smaller groups so the more capital ships the bigger problem for the Admiralty. Churchill and the Admiralty were terrified of the prospect of these surface raiders scattering a convoy, to be left to be picked of by Uboat wolf packs. At any given time their may have been a dozen convoys on route to the UK, so the Nazi could have had a field day.
Remember the overreactions when Graff Spee sortied into the South Atlantic and the Twins sortied later that winter. The admiralty panic and sortied the entire home fleet.Mean while Admiral Scheer slipped right through the screens right under their noses back into Germany. Admiralty misread Norway and the Germans got away with an invasion of the country. Raeder had done his home work on the RN , knowing that they were bound to their ports and had to react to German surface raiders, under political pressure. The Kreigsmarine had realised that two divergant naval squadrons/groups could act similtaneously with counter moves seas apart [even oceans apart] forcing the Admiralty to commit valuable reserves on wild goose chases. This would allow them to gain temporary control of a given sea long enough to cross it with troops.
So yes the bigger the capital ship fleet the more obsessed the Admiralty would have been. They may have caved to Admiral Forbes demand to cut back the anti invasion destroyers by 1/3 to provide more escorts for convoy duties. They certainly didn't want to have to mix it up over the channel since they might suffer crippled capital ships at the hands of the Luftwaffe. As far as the Admiralty was concern the anti invasion task was the job of the RAF and the army, not the RN. They were already stretched to the max with their empire and convoy committments.
British General Allan Brooks correctly recognised that his main chance was to wait until the Nazi land and focus on that spot for a counter attack. Since only 1/2 of his divisions were even fit for combat he had to be careful to gather up his forces. The RAF was going to have to bomb the beaches in the hopes of stemming the tide.The plan was for each landing barge to have a gun platform mounted overhead where army infantry guns, flak and PAK were to be carried and provide what ever fire support they needed and then be 'dismounted' and moved inland after the beaches were secured.
The Stuka would have made short work of the Coastal batteries, while the BoB rages over southern England. At the same time other Stuka wings would be progressively reducing the RN anti invasion fleets , even in their ports. Given the record on these attacks in the summer fall of 1940 , it would probably take 2-3 weeks to neutralise the RN flottilas in the south coast region. While that was going on , the Sealion plan envisaged the KM setting up extremely dense mine barriers [1 mine ever 7-9m] , that should slow the RN considerably and cost them many many ships to cross each day, since the Germans had enough reserve mines to re mine the breaches every day for months if needed.
Plan for use of German captial ships was to sortie ahead of the invasion into the North Atlantic as in Norway, to draw off the RN homefleet. Given that they have months of endurance with replenishment at sea, they could surge into the North Atlantic weeks ahead of the planned invasion and lead the 'Home Fleet' on a wild goose chase. It would be better if they went of in smaller groups so the more capital ships the bigger problem for the Admiralty. Churchill and the Admiralty were terrified of the prospect of these surface raiders scattering a convoy, to be left to be picked of by Uboat wolf packs. At any given time their may have been a dozen convoys on route to the UK, so the Nazi could have had a field day.
Remember the overreactions when Graff Spee sortied into the South Atlantic and the Twins sortied later that winter. The admiralty panic and sortied the entire home fleet.Mean while Admiral Scheer slipped right through the screens right under their noses back into Germany. Admiralty misread Norway and the Germans got away with an invasion of the country. Raeder had done his home work on the RN , knowing that they were bound to their ports and had to react to German surface raiders, under political pressure. The Kreigsmarine had realised that two divergant naval squadrons/groups could act similtaneously with counter moves seas apart [even oceans apart] forcing the Admiralty to commit valuable reserves on wild goose chases. This would allow them to gain temporary control of a given sea long enough to cross it with troops.
So yes the bigger the capital ship fleet the more obsessed the Admiralty would have been. They may have caved to Admiral Forbes demand to cut back the anti invasion destroyers by 1/3 to provide more escorts for convoy duties. They certainly didn't want to have to mix it up over the channel since they might suffer crippled capital ships at the hands of the Luftwaffe. As far as the Admiralty was concern the anti invasion task was the job of the RAF and the army, not the RN. They were already stretched to the max with their empire and convoy committments.
Redbeard
Banned
While I agree in Sealion being impossible without significant or early PoDs I wonder how big losses the RN could sustain before the British would ask for an armistice?
So instead of having a successful invasion as the main objective, use the invasion as the bait in a trap to reduce the RN below the mark where it can keep the sealanes open. If letting RN forces go beserk at the invasion fleet is (secretly) accepted I guess the combination of mines, u-boats, light forces and airstrikes could inflict substantial losses on the RN. Keep the capital ships back initially, the British will anxiously consider when they go below the number needed to keep two, soon four, fast capital ships out of the Atlantic and also keep a balanced presence in the Mediterranean (not to mention the Far East). U-boat losses can be ralatively quickly replaced, and in OTL most U-boats were built after 1940 anyway.
The price for the Germans is loosing maybe 5 Divisions and the main part of their light naval forces (TB, DD and CLs). But they had in the region of 150 Divisions, and still rising (peaking at about 250) and the light forces would be idle anyway in most other optional operations. It would be a very low price for getting GB out of the war.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
So instead of having a successful invasion as the main objective, use the invasion as the bait in a trap to reduce the RN below the mark where it can keep the sealanes open. If letting RN forces go beserk at the invasion fleet is (secretly) accepted I guess the combination of mines, u-boats, light forces and airstrikes could inflict substantial losses on the RN. Keep the capital ships back initially, the British will anxiously consider when they go below the number needed to keep two, soon four, fast capital ships out of the Atlantic and also keep a balanced presence in the Mediterranean (not to mention the Far East). U-boat losses can be ralatively quickly replaced, and in OTL most U-boats were built after 1940 anyway.
The price for the Germans is loosing maybe 5 Divisions and the main part of their light naval forces (TB, DD and CLs). But they had in the region of 150 Divisions, and still rising (peaking at about 250) and the light forces would be idle anyway in most other optional operations. It would be a very low price for getting GB out of the war.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
No. U-boats and capital ships would not have fun in the Channel.
The idea that the escort losses from Sealion would force the British to make peace is bizarre. Britain would be permanently safe from invasion thereafter and would have minimal need for forces for Home duties.
The Stuka would have made short work of the Coastal batteries, while the BoB rages over southern England. At the same time other Stuka wings would be progressively reducing the RN anti invasion fleets , even in their ports. Given the record on these attacks in the summer fall of 1940 , it would probably take 2-3 weeks to neutralise the RN flottilas in the south coast region. While that was going on , the Sealion plan envisaged the KM setting up extremely dense mine barriers [1 mine ever 7-9m] , that should slow the RN considerably and cost them many many ships to cross each day, since the Germans had enough reserve mines to re mine the breaches every day for months if needed. The Stuka would have made short work of the Coastal batteries, while the BoB rages over southern England. At the same time other Stuka wings would be progressively reducing the RN anti invasion fleets , even in their ports. Given the record on these attacks in the summer fall of 1940 , it would probably take 2-3 weeks to neutralise the RN flottilas in the south coast region. While that was going on , the Sealion plan envisaged the KM setting up extremely dense mine barriers [1 mine ever 7-9m] , that should slow the RN considerably and cost them many many ships to cross each day, since the Germans had enough reserve mines to re mine the breaches every day for months if needed.
How would this happen without air superiority? The Stukas would be shot out the sky by Hurricanes without fighter escort.
What record of these attacks? Which RN ships were destroyed or damaged in the summer of 1940??
Considering that 12% of the invasion fleet was sunk in port it is clear which way the sand was actually running.
Redbeard
Banned
Bizarre? Only your level of reasoning I suppose!
If GB is cut off from outside supplies she will have to ask for an armistice or starve.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Exactly!
Besides, one point often overlooked in regards to Britain in the WW2 was that we're talking about a democracy here. Even with Churchill at the helm only so many lost ships can be accepted! Each lost capital ship sent shock waves through the public and if enough ships in general is lost said public might think the war was unwinnable (German ability to invade or no)!
Or Churchill's hard-line could simply be undermined politically!
Regards and all!
- B