A Beauharnais State in Italy

During the Congress of Vienna, there seems to have been talk of creating an independent state as compensation for the dispossessed Eugene de Beauharnais, former Viceroy of Italy. AFAIK, it was the Russian emperor (a prominent supporter of the Beauharnais family) who suggested this form of recompensation – namely in the form of the duchy of Genoa. However, for some unknown reason, the rest of the Allies wouldn’t take the bait and instead handed the former territories of the Genoese Republic to the house of Savoy. The Allies (probably as the result of Eugene’s wife’s family) seem to have had less of a problem with the de Beauharnais family as opposed to the Bonapartes.
So what might the future hold if the Beauharnais were to get a hold of the duchy of Genoa? How might the rest of Europe feel about this? After all, it’s not as though Eugene would be an unknown quantity to the Italians – after all, he had served as Napoleon’s viceroy for nearly a decade at that point. Or is this so far in ASB territory as to be implausible?

JonasResende said:

During the Congress of Vienna, there seems to have been talk of creating an independent state as compensation for the dispossessed Eugene de Beauharnais, former Viceroy of Italy. AFAIK, it was the Russian emperor (a prominent supporter of the Beauharnais family) who suggested this form of recompensation – namely in the form of the duchy of Genoa. However, for some unknown reason, the rest of the Allies wouldn’t take the bait and instead handed the former territories of the Genoese Republic to the house of Savoy. The Allies (probably as the result of Eugene’s wife’s family) seem to have had less of a problem with the de Beauharnais family as opposed to the Bonapartes.
So what might the future hold if the Beauharnais were to get a hold of the duchy of Genoa? How might the rest of Europe feel about this? After all, it’s not as though Eugene would be an unknown quantity to the Italians – after all, he had served as Napoleon’s viceroy for nearly a decade at that point. Or is this so far in ASB territory as to be implausible?

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unlikly but not impossible. I am considering using Eugene as a secondary character in an upcoming alt, one perhaps even less likely than this.

Why not have him as King of Italy?


You could easily keep the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy by moving a couple things around during the Napoleonic Wars. Maybe as a POD, the Austrians are Nappy's favorite German state instead of the Bavarians. Later, after Napoleon abdicates, have Eugene's attempt to become King of Italy in Napoleon's wake succeed. Since the Habsburgs are Europe's second least popular family, there will be no rush to grant them their third of Italy, and when Napoleon comes back, Eugene plays the fiddle for the Coalition and betrays his stepfather. Coalition decides he's a cool guy, so why not. (He was one of the most popular leaders of the Napoleonic Wars. Even the Coalition respected him.) Voila!

Curt Jester said:

Why not have him as King of Italy?

You could easily keep the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy by moving a couple things around during the Napoleonic Wars. Maybe as a POD, the Austrians are Nappy's favorite German state instead of the Bavarians. Later, after Napoleon abdicates, have Eugene's attempt to become King of Italy in Napoleon's wake succeed. Since the Habsburgs are Europe's second least popular family, there will be no rush to grant them their third of Italy, and when Napoleon comes back, Eugene plays the fiddle for the Coalition and betrays his stepfather. Coalition decides he's a cool guy, so why not. (He was one of the most popular leaders of the Napoleonic Wars. Even the Coalition respected him.) Voila!

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I don't think he even needs to betray Napoléon, he simply needs to act as OTL where during les cent jours he did nothing. That way if Napoléon stays in power he can claim that the Allies forced him to, and he can play the "I didn't do anything to help the man I owe almost everything to, so pony up with the crown" card.

Why did the Allies hold the de Beauharnais in such esteem after Nap's defeat? I mean during the empire Josèphine had been a Creole slut willing to spread her legs for the highest/most powerful bidder. And yet, when the Allies entered Paris, no less a person than the Emperor of Russia paid her a visit and promised to look out for her kids/family? What changed?

The problem of poor Eugene was that his only true sponsors were the Bavarians (who did not come out of the Napoleonic wars exactly smelling of roses). It is true that the czar expressed his sympathy for him more than once, but there is a lot of difference between "sympathy" and true support (and anyway the Russian sympathy was not really going to endear him to Austria, GB or France: none of these would be eager to set up a potential Russian cats paw in Italy).

Eugene keeping the crown of a continuing kingdom of Italy is a bit ASBish, and the same applies to setting him up as duke of Genoa (the coalition's strategy was to set up second-tier powers at France's borders, and giving Genoa to Sardinia was much more reasonable). A possibility might have been giving him the duchy of Parma (which IOTL went to Marie Louise for her lifetime) or alternatively the newly formed duchy of Lucca (which IOTL went to Charles of Borbone-Parma): in the latter case, Charles would be reinstated in Parma.
Another possibility might have been to carve out the former Papal States: the legations of Bologna, Ferrara and Romagna (with or without Marche) would have been a nice state for Eugene. Note that the possibility of not restoring the Papal States (or at least reducing their extension drastically) was discussed in Vienna and anyway the Papal representatives were not admitted to the negotiations, not even as a second-tier power. Once again the key issue is who would have benefited by this decision.

IMHO the likelihood of Eugene being awarded a crown would be enhanced if there are not the 100 Days.

LordKalvan said:

The problem of poor Eugene was that his only true sponsors were the Bavarians (who did not come out of the Napoleonic wars exactly smelling of roses). It is true that the czar expressed his sympathy for him more than once, but there is a lot of difference between "sympathy" and true support (and anyway the Russian sympathy was not really going to endear him to Austria, GB or France: none of these would be eager to set up a potential Russian cats paw in Italy).

Eugene keeping the crown of a continuing kingdom of Italy is a bit ASBish, and the same applies to setting him up as duke of Genoa (the coalition's strategy was to set up second-tier powers at France's borders, and giving Genoa to Sardinia was much more reasonable). A possibility might have been giving him the duchy of Parma (which IOTL went to Marie Louise for her lifetime) or alternatively the newly formed duchy of Lucca (which IOTL went to Charles of Borbone-Parma): in the latter case, Charles would be reinstated in Parma.
Another possibility might have been to carve out the former Papal States: the legations of Bologna, Ferrara and Romagna (with or without Marche) would have been a nice state for Eugene. Note that the possibility of not restoring the Papal States (or at least reducing their extension drastically) was discussed in Vienna and anyway the Papal representatives were not admitted to the negotiations, not even as a second-tier power. Once again the key issue is who would have benefited by this decision.

IMHO the likelihood of Eugene being awarded a crown would be enhanced if there are not the 100 Days.

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I agree, for the most part. The northern portions of the Papal Legations would be one's best bet (maybe also including Forsi-Cesena), since they are relatively inoffensive to even the most Catholic nations of Europe. And I also agree on the 100 Days assessment, since that is what killed the possibility of Joachim Murat keeping the Kingdom of Naples as well, so Eugene would also definitely have better chances if there is precedent like Murat.

Kellan Sullivan said:

I don't think he even needs to betray Napoléon, he simply needs to act as OTL where during les cent jours he did nothing. That way if Napoléon stays in power he can claim that the Allies forced him to, and he can play the "I didn't do anything to help the man I owe almost everything to, so pony up with the crown" card.

Why did the Allies hold the de Beauharnais in such esteem after Nap's defeat? I mean during the empire Josèphine had been a Creole slut willing to spread her legs for the highest/most powerful bidder. And yet, when the Allies entered Paris, no less a person than the Emperor of Russia paid her a visit and promised to look out for her kids/family? What changed?

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Reading Adam Zamoyski the following things are mentioned with regards to Eugene.

- Alexander even mentioned de Beauharnais as possible leader of France.
- In 1813, when Eugene was defending Northern Italy, he met with his father-in-law (the King of Bavaria) who offered him, on behalf of Metternich, a Duchy or Kingdom in Italy. He was offered this again in 1814. Both times Eugene refused.
- Eugene had a very good reputation as a chivalrous and competent general who was admired because of his loyalty to Napoleon.
- The Ionian Islands and Pontecorvo were also mentioned as compensations for Eugene. The latter was actually assigned to him but without the means to actually take possession of it.

A Beauharnais holding the Ionian Islands? Might that make him/his dynasty a front-runner candidate for when the Greek throne is up for grabs?

At one point he was offered the Duchy of Milan.

That'd make for an interesting TL.

HJ Tulp said:

Reading Adam Zamoyski the following things are mentioned with regards to Eugene.

- Alexander even mentioned de Beauharnais as possible leader of France.
- In 1813, when Eugene was defending Northern Italy, he met with his father-in-law (the King of Bavaria) who offered him, on behalf of Metternich, a Duchy or Kingdom in Italy. He was offered this again in 1814. Both times Eugene refused.
- Eugene had a very good reputation as a chivalrous and competent general who was admired because of his loyalty to Napoleon.
- The Ionian Islands and Pontecorvo were also mentioned as compensations for Eugene. The latter was actually assigned to him but without the means to actually take possession of it.

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Apparently he was also offered, a few years earlier, to become the crown prince of Sweden, but declined. This then led to Bernadotte receiving the honor.

When the Swedish heir was being elected Napoleon was still winning big. And even if he was losing I don't see Eugene abandoning him to go and rule Sweden. Ionian Islands do sound interesting but maybe somewhat...(trying to find the right word)...exotic. Even so, though I'm not sure how many butterflies would be necessary the Ionian Islands and later Greece sound great But Pontecorvo, Lucca, Parma or maybe a new Duchy carved out of Papal States all sound very plausible and also could have big consequences in Italy. IIRC he was still holding the line in Italy when Napoleon lost in 1814 and then after the news came Napoleon abdicated Eugene tried to get the crown for himself but didn't have support. Can anyone think of a POD for this to work? Not the whole of Italy but at least the allies agreeing to give him a slice of Italy for himself. Which part, that depends on the Congress of Vienna.

Iserlohn said:

I agree, for the most part. The northern portions of the Papal Legations would be one's best bet (maybe also including Forsi-Cesena), since they are relatively inoffensive to even the most Catholic nations of Europe. And I also agree on the 100 Days assessment, since that is what killed the possibility of Joachim Murat keeping the Kingdom of Naples as well, so Eugene would also definitely have better chances if there is precedent like Murat.

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Forli' and Cesena are in the Legation of Romagna.
There might be an issue in having both Murat and Eugene (outside of family, they were possibly the closest to Napoleon) as rulers of Italian states which happen to be contiguous, but I believe that it might work out if the 100 Days do not happen (which may result in the Coalition powers be more divided into two antagonistic lineups in Vienna since the scare of a Napoleonic return does not materialize: Russia/Prussia vs. GB-Austria-France. When the Congress was adjourned in December 1814, the former Coalition was not a compact monolith). IMHO it will depend on Alexander's assertiveness (Metternich was quite frightened by the czar's proclamation that the downfall of Napoleon had happened "in the name of liberty and enlightenment" and both he and Castlereagh were fearful of exchanging the former French domination of Europe with a Russian one).

Kellan Sullivan said:

A Beauharnais holding the Ionian Islands? Might that make him/his dynasty a front-runner candidate for when the Greek throne is up for grabs?

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Alexander had in the past made attempts to establish a Russian presence in the Ionian islands, and in Malta too. The idea of Eugene ruling the Ionian islands will certainly meet a firm British opposition.

Colonel Autumn said:

At one point he was offered the Duchy of Milan.

That'd make for an interesting TL.

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Never heard of such an idea, do you have any link?
I believe it might be very difficult, since the duchy of Milan was a possession of the Austrian Habsburgs since the war of Spanish succession. It might be (slightly) easier to give Eugene the duchy of Venice (probably without Dalmatia and the Ionian islands) but for that to happen Austria must retain the former Austrian Netherlands.

Vladivostock said:

When the Swedish heir was being elected Napoleon was still winning big. And even if he was losing I don't see Eugene abandoning him to go and rule Sweden. Ionian Islands do sound interesting but maybe somewhat...(trying to find the right word)...exotic. Even so, though I'm not sure how many butterflies would be necessary the Ionian Islands and later Greece sound great But Pontecorvo, Lucca, Parma or maybe a new Duchy carved out of Papal States all sound very plausible and also could have big consequences in Italy. IIRC he was still holding the line in Italy when Napoleon lost in 1814 and then after the news came Napoleon abdicated Eugene tried to get the crown for himself but didn't have support. Can anyone think of a POD for this to work? Not the whole of Italy but at least the allies agreeing to give him a slice of Italy for himself. Which part, that depends on the Congress of Vienna.

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Pontecorvo is a joke: a landlocked, postage-stamp-size principality completely surrounded by the kingdom of Naples: I don't think Eugene would be interested.
The other possibilities are more real. The POD IMHO can only be no 100 Days and a more assertive Alexander I

Well, the Aus.Netherlands DID request a Habsburg archduke to rule them in 1814/15 IIRC. However, for some unknown reason they were more concerned with palming it off to the former prince of Orange. So, Austria sends the duke of Teschen to rule in Brussels (sort of the same as Leopold II was to do in Tuscany) as a secundogeniture, and as a result they hand over the former Serenissima to Eugene, minus Dalmatia and the Ionian islands (not sure if Trieste is part of Dalmatia, but perhaps Austria keeps that too), so at least IF Austria does do the navy bit, it's not as Archduke Friedrich of Teschen complained: A Venetian-Dalmatic crew in a Venetian built ship merely flying the Austrian standard.

The problem is that the Austrians did not want their former provinces in the Netherlands back, and preferred to consolidate their domains in Italy: it was an act of complete madness. Not only the former Austrian Netherlands were on the verge of their own industrial revolution, but the inhabitants wanted the Habsburgs back; Venetia was not a poor land, but was certainly poorer (and with less prospects) than Wallonia and the Venetians did not want to be under the Habsburgs: they would have certainly preferred a restoration of the republic of Venice, but Eugene had been popular enough during his tenure as viceroy of Italy. I can only blame it on Habsburg inbreeding

Trieste was not part of the former republic of Venice anyway, so it would not have been an issue in 1815.

Wasn't the Beauharnais family supposed to be far more loyal to Nappy than his own family or generals were? Of course for his own family it was because of their principals, with one being a revolutionary who went to marry an American and refused to divorce her to be made a king, one who took his roll as King of Holland seriously, and one who sold the principality she got for the cash, though who then in turn sold all her palaces and such when Nappy was exiled so as to take all the money to help him live on Elba.

What if the Congress were to agree to allow the grand duchy of Frankfurt (or Berg) continue to exist with Eugène as ruler? He was heir presumptive to Frankfurt in any case AFAIK.

Kellan Sullivan said:

Well, the Aus.Netherlands DID request a Habsburg archduke to rule them in 1814/15 IIRC. However, for some unknown reason they were more concerned with palming it off to the former prince of Orange. So, Austria sends the duke of Teschen to rule in Brussels (sort of the same as Leopold II was to do in Tuscany) as a secundogeniture, and as a result they hand over the former Serenissima to Eugene, minus Dalmatia and the Ionian islands (not sure if Trieste is part of Dalmatia, but perhaps Austria keeps that too), so at least IF Austria does do the navy bit, it's not as Archduke Friedrich of Teschen complained: A Venetian-Dalmatic crew in a Venetian built ship merely flying the Austrian standard.

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Trieste was not part of the Venetian Republic at all. It was Austrian going back to the late 14th century.

Kellan Sullivan said:

What if the Congress were to agree to allow the grand duchy of Frankfurt (or Berg) continue to exist with Eugène as ruler? He was heir presumptive to Frankfurt in any case AFAIK.

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The problem is that if you don't give most of the Grand Duchy of Frankfurt to Bavaria, you have to find some other compensation for Bavaria, or else it doesn't have to give Salzburg back. The Austrians want Salzburg back, and they're not going to give it up for the sake of Napoleon's ex-stepson. And the Bavarians want Eugene to get something, but not at *their* expense. I suppose that Berg could be offered to the Bavarians instead, since it was Wittelsbach territory back in the day, but it's a) non-contiguous with the rest of Bavaria; and b) probably needs to be given to Prussia to give Prussia the promised amount of territory. I suppose this could be accomplished by further screwing over the King of Saxony?

The Papal Legations seem like the easiest - Eugene already ruled them for a decade, and nobody really feels like it's *that* important to give them back to the Pope.

Would Bourbon France allow the screwing of Saxony? And what was happening with the former archbishopric-electorates of Cologne, Trier and Mainz?

LordKalvan said:

The problem is that the Austrians did not want their former provinces in the Netherlands back, and preferred to consolidate their domains in Italy: it was an act of complete madness. Not only the former Austrian Netherlands were on the verge of their own industrial revolution, but the inhabitants wanted the Habsburgs back; Venetia was not a poor land, but was certainly poorer (and with less prospects) than Wallonia and the Venetians did not want to be under the Habsburgs: they would have certainly preferred a restoration of the republic of Venice, but Eugene had been popular enough during his tenure as viceroy of Italy. I can only blame it on Habsburg inbreeding

Trieste was not part of the former republic of Venice anyway, so it would not have been an issue in 1815.

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You're applying some pretty convenient hindsight here. The Habsburgs had no way of knowing that the industrial revolution was coming and would make Wallonia vastly more important. As it was, the Southern Netherlands had been a difficult to defend headache for the Habsburgs that the French had been invading for centuries. Concentrating on more contiguous territory in Italy was sensible.