Yesterday's Tommorow: A Plausible Roman Steam TL
- Thread starter DonMegel
- Start date
I wanted to clarify that my steam boat is not an advanced steamer, just the piston engine mounted to water wheels. The boat is also not very large, requiring less strain on the engine.
In my TL its been nearly 20 year since Heron started working on more advanced engines. Six of those years Heron himself worked on the project and he would qualify as super-genius. Palonius is intelligent but no where near Heron’s level. However, he has hired Braxis who worked with Heron on his projects so there is a continuation. 20 years of work to attach a basic steam engine, even if it is weak, to a boat does not seem that far fetched. Especially when you are surrounded by the most brilliant people in the known world to goto for advice if needed. True, none of them would be able to advise about a completed steam engine, but things like temperature, metallurgy, mechanics, etc. would be reasonable.
I also suggest the engine they are using now can be built without measuring pressure and temperature precisely because the tolerances at this level are more forgiving and, having worked with steam engines for years, they would have a good idea about how hot to make the boiler.
Ofcourse, if other people want to use these engines or, if more pressure is required, being able to measure pressure and temperature more accurately becomes important but we must consider the cause and effect of technological development. Tools for measuring temperature and pressure could be created because they are needed for better steam engines.
A little concerned about posting more, but, here it goes
77AD- Two years pass as Palonius launches the second and then the third iteration of his self-powered vessel in front of an ever-shrinking base of onlookers. Unlike The Heron, The Heron II did not explode and sink, allowing to be used for the much-improved The Heron III. Although from a Patrician background, Palonius fortunes had declined significantly since leaving Rome and embarking on his new career path. The Library provided a small stipend to continue Heron’s work as well as access to all of its facilities, but much of the cost for materials, including the purchase of ships and expensive fuel, the hiring of workers, and healthy amounts of iron and bronze, came out of his own pocket, pockets that had begun to grow lighter in the past few years.
After making it back to shore and failing to salvage the mass of splinters that was The Heron, Palonius was approached by one of those who had been watching the disaster. Phillip, a Greek civil engineer, observed that his drive wheels looked like a series of traditional ores arrayed in a circle for contentious operation. Water wheels, he explained, such as those used for mills around the Empire, caught water in their fins and rotated. He suggested the opposite might work as well, with the fins in the water wheel pushing water out to propel the craft.
After modifying the common water wheel design to make it more suitable for his purposes, Palonius found it much more effeciant, with less wasted energy an less agitation in the water. Acceleration was very poor as was the vessel’s top speed but, it was constant and sustained.
The location of the boiler was lowered to reduce the vessel’s center of gravity and multiple containers were used to house the needed water rather than one large one in order to reduce the sloshing effect. Unfortunately this made the entire apparatus heavier and more expensive but Palonius was primarily concerned with making it work rather than making it practical.
After these, and other, more minor, corrections were made, Palonius and Braxis completed their first successful navigation of Alexandria’s harbor. For the next few days they put The Heron III through various trials, testing its speed, maneuverability and durability in different situations. More adjustments followed but at last, satisfied the craft would survive an extended journey, they set sail for Tyrus in Syria to begin their promotional mission.
After a few hours of steaming along the coastline, Palonius and Braxis discovered the oven that contained the boiler was beginning to crack, or more specifically the clay coating. Power to the pistons, also, was beginning to lag. Within 15 minutes the cracks had widened and begun to show signs of moisture. Since fluids were supposed to be contained within the boiler, this drew concern. Opening the door into which fuel was cast yielded little information as the heat and flames obscured their vision. Not wishing to lose The Heron III, Palonius gave the order to pull ashore.
The fires around the boiler were allowed to cool for several hours before Braxis squeezed inside to inspect the elements. He found the pipes bringing water into and steam out of the cauldron had deformed and cracked. The cauldron too, showed signs of stress and was seeping water around the lid. As water leaked into the furnace it built pressure inside, causing it to expand and thus cracking the clay.
Palonius decided it was too dangerous to run the boiler for so long a time and instead ordered the ship sail for Caesarea Maritima on the Judean coast for repairs. He wanted to steam into Tyrus instead of sail. After reaching the much smaller port city, he rented a mooring and began the tedious task of disassembling the boiler.
In my TL its been nearly 20 year since Heron started working on more advanced engines. Six of those years Heron himself worked on the project and he would qualify as super-genius. Palonius is intelligent but no where near Heron’s level. However, he has hired Braxis who worked with Heron on his projects so there is a continuation. 20 years of work to attach a basic steam engine, even if it is weak, to a boat does not seem that far fetched. Especially when you are surrounded by the most brilliant people in the known world to goto for advice if needed. True, none of them would be able to advise about a completed steam engine, but things like temperature, metallurgy, mechanics, etc. would be reasonable.
I also suggest the engine they are using now can be built without measuring pressure and temperature precisely because the tolerances at this level are more forgiving and, having worked with steam engines for years, they would have a good idea about how hot to make the boiler.
Ofcourse, if other people want to use these engines or, if more pressure is required, being able to measure pressure and temperature more accurately becomes important but we must consider the cause and effect of technological development. Tools for measuring temperature and pressure could be created because they are needed for better steam engines.
A little concerned about posting more, but, here it goes
77AD- Two years pass as Palonius launches the second and then the third iteration of his self-powered vessel in front of an ever-shrinking base of onlookers. Unlike The Heron, The Heron II did not explode and sink, allowing to be used for the much-improved The Heron III. Although from a Patrician background, Palonius fortunes had declined significantly since leaving Rome and embarking on his new career path. The Library provided a small stipend to continue Heron’s work as well as access to all of its facilities, but much of the cost for materials, including the purchase of ships and expensive fuel, the hiring of workers, and healthy amounts of iron and bronze, came out of his own pocket, pockets that had begun to grow lighter in the past few years.
After making it back to shore and failing to salvage the mass of splinters that was The Heron, Palonius was approached by one of those who had been watching the disaster. Phillip, a Greek civil engineer, observed that his drive wheels looked like a series of traditional ores arrayed in a circle for contentious operation. Water wheels, he explained, such as those used for mills around the Empire, caught water in their fins and rotated. He suggested the opposite might work as well, with the fins in the water wheel pushing water out to propel the craft.
After modifying the common water wheel design to make it more suitable for his purposes, Palonius found it much more effeciant, with less wasted energy an less agitation in the water. Acceleration was very poor as was the vessel’s top speed but, it was constant and sustained.
The location of the boiler was lowered to reduce the vessel’s center of gravity and multiple containers were used to house the needed water rather than one large one in order to reduce the sloshing effect. Unfortunately this made the entire apparatus heavier and more expensive but Palonius was primarily concerned with making it work rather than making it practical.
After these, and other, more minor, corrections were made, Palonius and Braxis completed their first successful navigation of Alexandria’s harbor. For the next few days they put The Heron III through various trials, testing its speed, maneuverability and durability in different situations. More adjustments followed but at last, satisfied the craft would survive an extended journey, they set sail for Tyrus in Syria to begin their promotional mission.
After a few hours of steaming along the coastline, Palonius and Braxis discovered the oven that contained the boiler was beginning to crack, or more specifically the clay coating. Power to the pistons, also, was beginning to lag. Within 15 minutes the cracks had widened and begun to show signs of moisture. Since fluids were supposed to be contained within the boiler, this drew concern. Opening the door into which fuel was cast yielded little information as the heat and flames obscured their vision. Not wishing to lose The Heron III, Palonius gave the order to pull ashore.
The fires around the boiler were allowed to cool for several hours before Braxis squeezed inside to inspect the elements. He found the pipes bringing water into and steam out of the cauldron had deformed and cracked. The cauldron too, showed signs of stress and was seeping water around the lid. As water leaked into the furnace it built pressure inside, causing it to expand and thus cracking the clay.
Palonius decided it was too dangerous to run the boiler for so long a time and instead ordered the ship sail for Caesarea Maritima on the Judean coast for repairs. He wanted to steam into Tyrus instead of sail. After reaching the much smaller port city, he rented a mooring and began the tedious task of disassembling the boiler.
DonMegel said:
Twenty years to go from a toy that is a dead end at best for development of a useful steam engine to something successful?
It doesn't matter how brilliant the people you're around are if none of them know enough about this.
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsteamship.htm
And this with far more advanced knowledge and the "steam engine capable of useful work" design worked out a generation and a half before Fitch's steamboat.
As a counterbalance to everyone saying how implausible this is, I'd like to say I'm enjoying this TL.
Experiments in science, especially this far back, do not always rely on measurements but rather trial and error with basic knowledge in a field; even if that field is highly specialized. I have no doubt that one person could go from that toy to a boat utilizing steam that travels a little slower than a leisurely paddle boat ride working everyday of his life for a few years with just the right strokes of innovation. Especially if there are still problems along the road that would arise without him having the measurements or knowledge that our 18th century scientists had.
That being said, it'd make the evolution of that knowledge or the passing on of it much more difficult when that person is gone.
EDIT: You keep using the word "useful," but what is the definition of that? It's slow, it's not too reliable, and it explodes. To me that's not terribly useful. As you've said, the rich would probably neither fund the research nor buy a boat with this propulsion; that doesn't mean it can't exist and that someone wouldn't continue work on it.
Experiments in science, especially this far back, do not always rely on measurements but rather trial and error with basic knowledge in a field; even if that field is highly specialized. I have no doubt that one person could go from that toy to a boat utilizing steam that travels a little slower than a leisurely paddle boat ride working everyday of his life for a few years with just the right strokes of innovation. Especially if there are still problems along the road that would arise without him having the measurements or knowledge that our 18th century scientists had.
That being said, it'd make the evolution of that knowledge or the passing on of it much more difficult when that person is gone.
EDIT: You keep using the word "useful," but what is the definition of that? It's slow, it's not too reliable, and it explodes. To me that's not terribly useful. As you've said, the rich would probably neither fund the research nor buy a boat with this propulsion; that doesn't mean it can't exist and that someone wouldn't continue work on it.
Despite that toy being a technological deadend, despite having practically zero knowledge of the elements necessary to develop a working steam engine, despite that taking Watt's design (which isn't a deadend) to something capable of powering a steamboat took longer for minds that did have that knowledge . . . yeah, it totally makes sense he could just get "the right strokes of innovation" and magically develop a working design.
Something capable of being more than an amusing toy like the aeolipile which is incapable of producing the horsepower necessary to move even a small boat.
The game here is about respect for reality, unless you're posting on the Alien Space Bats part of the site.
Making up the Nero you wish he were, as you seem to be, is not the way these things work.
And real innovation is harder than it looks, and takes plenty of time to get to soemthing that really works from something that barely works in the lab. That's why people keep telling you, rightly, that the aeleopile is less than a useful steam engine, and only in Hollywood can you as quickly overcome that as in your TL. Only in Hollywood can you so absurdly insantly advance from there.
The first alpha computers, for example, were so lame they were more expensive, slow trouble than they were worth. People only kept up because there was a better future ahaed, and it took decades to get to something good.
Making up the Nero you wish he were, as you seem to be, is not the way these things work.
And real innovation is harder than it looks, and takes plenty of time to get to soemthing that really works from something that barely works in the lab. That's why people keep telling you, rightly, that the aeleopile is less than a useful steam engine, and only in Hollywood can you as quickly overcome that as in your TL. Only in Hollywood can you so absurdly insantly advance from there.
The first alpha computers, for example, were so lame they were more expensive, slow trouble than they were worth. People only kept up because there was a better future ahaed, and it took decades to get to something good.
DonMegal, I think you should continue your TL despite my concerns. Although if you retconned a longer period of development...
As is, the TL is not Turtledove ASB level but a little loose for Alt History. I am being entertained.
As is, the TL is not Turtledove ASB level but a little loose for Alt History. I am being entertained.Esopo
Banned
I mean, if a Byzantine Empire can survive the 4th Crusade or Vikings found permanent settlement in the New World (in this forum), why not a Roman steam-engine?
Why? Because people doesnt like rome, and tries to kill timelines about it, but Likes bizantines and vikings so accepts and cheers timelines far less plausible than this one.
This site Isnt about plausibility, Its all about fanboysm. I hope This tl goes on, since Its one of the most interesting ones i have read here.
This is an awesome TL!
Forget what the critics are saying, this seems plausible enough, keep going
Forget what the critics are saying, this seems plausible enough, keep going
Esopo, thanks for explaining why people like me avoid Avitus's Byzantine timeline but follow SavyoTruffle's early modern Europe timeline.
No one is trying to stop a Roman timeline from succeeding because it isn't about something they like
Xachiaveli: How is it plausible enough?
We critics would love to know how the decades of development it took OTL can be compressed by people who know less than the OTL developers and with a technological dead end as the starting point.
No one is trying to stop a Roman timeline from succeeding because it isn't about something they like
Xachiaveli: How is it plausible enough?
We critics would love to know how the decades of development it took OTL can be compressed by people who know less than the OTL developers and with a technological dead end as the starting point.
This has entertained me and it's well-researched enough for me to suspend my disbelief when it comes to the central premise. You can't ask for more, really (I'm sure many would beg to differ, but you gotta expect some slight allowances to make these things work without throwing them fully into the realm of ASB, right?)
Anyway, I fully encourage you to keep going.
Anyway, I fully encourage you to keep going.
Oh! Possitive comments, I like those better
78AD- After two months in port, dragging into the year 78, Palonius was again confident in his steam engine, although not sure enough to make the entire trip to Tyrus under its power. The hours of intense heat from the boiler had warped the pipes and the kettle, requiring new ones to be forged. Had the situation continued unchecked, the boiler very well could have exploded, killing everyone onboard. After discussing it with Braxis, Palonius decided to only run the engine for two hours before letting it cool. The problem, ofcourse, would have to be overcome if the technology was to advance but that was a problem for another time.
Instead, he sailed from Caesarea Maritima till Tyrus was in sight and then lit the boiler. With the sails stowed and billowing smoke pouring from the stack, the strange looking vessel drew large crowds as it splashed into port. Remembering his days hosting parties in Rome, Palonius had changed into his finest clothes and began wooing the crowd, touting his vessels revolutionary method of propulsion. When offered to chance to board The Heron III, many declined, fearing the vessel possessed by demons, but some of the less superstitious agreed and examined the engine with interest.
Although Palonius was more interested in the wealthier members of the city he knew the best way to gain their attention was through large crowds and so, with pride, he explained the simple concept of steam building pressure which then pushed a piston which turned the water wheels. Some asked questions but most just gawked and then filled off the ship gossiping about this or that.
Finally, after word of the strange contraption made it from slave to master, more well-to-do members of Tyrus began arriving. To these he offered special attention and even short rides around the harbor, making a point to highlight the attentive stares of others. Despite their pleased expressions and abundant praise none expressed interest in patronage nor purchase. After a week in Tyrus, Palonius decided to move on towards his goal of Athens.
Transit was slow and Palonius insisted on staying within sight of land, hugging the coast line and extending their journey. Only the two hired hands had any sailing experience and no one felt comfortable venturing out into the open Mediterranean.
A few more stops, most for supplies, proved as fruitless as had Tyrus but Palonius was confident he would have more luck in Athens which boasted some of the most influential and wealthy men in the Empire, rivaling Rome herself. Finally, after three weeks of sailing, The Heron III lit her boilers and chugged slowly into the Athenian harbor.
78AD- After two months in port, dragging into the year 78, Palonius was again confident in his steam engine, although not sure enough to make the entire trip to Tyrus under its power. The hours of intense heat from the boiler had warped the pipes and the kettle, requiring new ones to be forged. Had the situation continued unchecked, the boiler very well could have exploded, killing everyone onboard. After discussing it with Braxis, Palonius decided to only run the engine for two hours before letting it cool. The problem, ofcourse, would have to be overcome if the technology was to advance but that was a problem for another time.
Instead, he sailed from Caesarea Maritima till Tyrus was in sight and then lit the boiler. With the sails stowed and billowing smoke pouring from the stack, the strange looking vessel drew large crowds as it splashed into port. Remembering his days hosting parties in Rome, Palonius had changed into his finest clothes and began wooing the crowd, touting his vessels revolutionary method of propulsion. When offered to chance to board The Heron III, many declined, fearing the vessel possessed by demons, but some of the less superstitious agreed and examined the engine with interest.
Although Palonius was more interested in the wealthier members of the city he knew the best way to gain their attention was through large crowds and so, with pride, he explained the simple concept of steam building pressure which then pushed a piston which turned the water wheels. Some asked questions but most just gawked and then filled off the ship gossiping about this or that.
Finally, after word of the strange contraption made it from slave to master, more well-to-do members of Tyrus began arriving. To these he offered special attention and even short rides around the harbor, making a point to highlight the attentive stares of others. Despite their pleased expressions and abundant praise none expressed interest in patronage nor purchase. After a week in Tyrus, Palonius decided to move on towards his goal of Athens.
Transit was slow and Palonius insisted on staying within sight of land, hugging the coast line and extending their journey. Only the two hired hands had any sailing experience and no one felt comfortable venturing out into the open Mediterranean.
A few more stops, most for supplies, proved as fruitless as had Tyrus but Palonius was confident he would have more luck in Athens which boasted some of the most influential and wealthy men in the Empire, rivaling Rome herself. Finally, after three weeks of sailing, The Heron III lit her boilers and chugged slowly into the Athenian harbor.
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78AD prt II- Hipparchus was considered by many to be one of the wealthiest people in the Empire. He and his family claimed a direct line of descent from Zues himself by way of some of the most renowned personalities in Greek history. His properties, and buisness interests, stretched from one corner of the Empire to another, with holdings in Spain, Gaul, Italy, Tyrus, Egypt and, ofcourse, Greece.
It was an incredible, bright sunny morning that found Hipparchus strolling through the gardens of his estate, pondering an approaching trip to visit some friends in Italy. As he wandered aimlessly, his ears detected an unusual conection of words coming from around the corner. Train of thought broken, he walked around the corner to find two young slave girls giggling and whispering about something. Upon seeing him they immediately dropped their heads and began apologizing profusly but he stayed their laments with an outstreatched hand and instead asked what they had been talking about.
Sheepishly at first, but then with more excitement, the two girls relayed their eventful trip to the market that morning and the demon ship that had come into harbor. They pointed out there was a demon master, dressed in fine clothes, who claimed to command the evil ship and was offering rides to those who were fearless enough to attempt it.
Typically Hipparchus did not indulge in the cheap tricks that so easily amused, or frightened, the populas but a demon master at the helm of a demon ship was too intriguing to ignore. With a flick of his wrist he dimissed the slaves and walked inside to change for an outing.
An hour later he had made his way through the crowds of slaves and merchants who had temporarily abandonded their duties to gawk at the nobleman and his queer little boat. Hipparchus saw immediately that neither the vessel, nor the men aboard it, were demons but the smoking cheimney and water wheels created more questions.
The man speaking, Palonius as he soon discovered, wore Patrician robes and spoke with an eloquence that told of some learning and socializing in higher circles. This was even more fascinating than the ship itself and drove Hipparchus to intorduce himself. The pair spoke for some length of time before finally taking The Heron III around the harbor to demonstrait its workings.
After returning to port, Hipparchus asked if Palonius would be willing to take the ship to Naples to entertain his friends. Palonius would rather sale the craft and let Hipparchus sail it himself but he was not interested. Instead, he offered a large some of money for ship and crew to meet him in Naples in two months time. Although appearing a little disapointed, Palonius agreed and Hipparchus provided him with a note of promise for the funds
It was an incredible, bright sunny morning that found Hipparchus strolling through the gardens of his estate, pondering an approaching trip to visit some friends in Italy. As he wandered aimlessly, his ears detected an unusual conection of words coming from around the corner. Train of thought broken, he walked around the corner to find two young slave girls giggling and whispering about something. Upon seeing him they immediately dropped their heads and began apologizing profusly but he stayed their laments with an outstreatched hand and instead asked what they had been talking about.
Sheepishly at first, but then with more excitement, the two girls relayed their eventful trip to the market that morning and the demon ship that had come into harbor. They pointed out there was a demon master, dressed in fine clothes, who claimed to command the evil ship and was offering rides to those who were fearless enough to attempt it.
Typically Hipparchus did not indulge in the cheap tricks that so easily amused, or frightened, the populas but a demon master at the helm of a demon ship was too intriguing to ignore. With a flick of his wrist he dimissed the slaves and walked inside to change for an outing.
An hour later he had made his way through the crowds of slaves and merchants who had temporarily abandonded their duties to gawk at the nobleman and his queer little boat. Hipparchus saw immediately that neither the vessel, nor the men aboard it, were demons but the smoking cheimney and water wheels created more questions.
The man speaking, Palonius as he soon discovered, wore Patrician robes and spoke with an eloquence that told of some learning and socializing in higher circles. This was even more fascinating than the ship itself and drove Hipparchus to intorduce himself. The pair spoke for some length of time before finally taking The Heron III around the harbor to demonstrait its workings.
After returning to port, Hipparchus asked if Palonius would be willing to take the ship to Naples to entertain his friends. Palonius would rather sale the craft and let Hipparchus sail it himself but he was not interested. Instead, he offered a large some of money for ship and crew to meet him in Naples in two months time. Although appearing a little disapointed, Palonius agreed and Hipparchus provided him with a note of promise for the funds
I dunno, there are ways to make these things work that don't require me to hang my suspension of disbelief from the neck until dead.
But I guess "Roman steam timeline" can't mean a slow development over time, because that wouldn't be as cool as superscience-like development.
Well, I suppose some of us are a bit more forgiving, then, eh?
It's speculative fiction, I'm more than willing to allow one "gimme" within the realm of reasonable (using that loosely) plausibility here in order to spur on an interesting timeline. It's not as if they're running around in airships right off the bat (d'ohoho.)
Well, I suppose some of us are a bit more forgiving, then, eh?
It's speculative fiction, I'm more than willing to allow one "gimme" within the realm of reasonable (using that loosely) plausibility here in order to spur on an interesting timeline. It's not as if they're running around in airships right off the bat (d'ohoho.)
My inclination to be an unforgiving person has nothing to do with my unwillingness to accept "A Plausible Roman Steam TL"ignoring the problems getting in the way of hyper-fast advancement.
This is faster than OTL's development with less to work with. That alone ought to indicate a need to go back to the drawing board, without having to point out the specific "less to work with" issues and how the ancient world really doesn't have the tools to solve it as quickly as OTL.
forget
Banned
Not a bad effort for 22 posts in fact i have only parse for the efforts of DonMegel. Sure the TL got alot of bugs AH is the perfect place to get these bugs worked out. The time of Rome is long past and info is sketchy on weather the romans could have achieved the creation of a workable steam engine.
History is a fluid thing were only just discovering new things about it all the time. The point is history of the age that is written dosent come in a box that is rigid and static.
History is a fluid thing were only just discovering new things about it all the time. The point is history of the age that is written dosent come in a box that is rigid and static.
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DonMegel I for one have enjoyed the timeline, albeit the implausibility of it is significant. At the end of the day your timeline is a work of fiction, and if you enjoy writing it then continue. This forum can be a harsh environment on some occasions, but some of the points raised can be very interesting. There's no reason why you couldn't start a Mk II of this version, using the suggestions gained on this thread to make Roman scientific development more gradual. This would make the timeline more plausible, albeit you may enjoy writing it less.
You seem to have handled the criticism quite well and it hasn't scared you off. Personally I always dread any accusations of ASB in my timelines, which is why my current TL is proceeding very slowly but with a great deal more research then my first. Another option is to post your raw timeline into the ASB section straight off where you won't have people nitpicking to such a degree but perhaps some will provide commentary on how to refine it slightly.
You seem to have handled the criticism quite well and it hasn't scared you off. Personally I always dread any accusations of ASB in my timelines, which is why my current TL is proceeding very slowly but with a great deal more research then my first. Another option is to post your raw timeline into the ASB section straight off where you won't have people nitpicking to such a degree but perhaps some will provide commentary on how to refine it slightly.
He certainly is a solid writer, I'll give him that. And he seems to have an interest in the period and inventors.
With the bugs worked out, this could be a very good timeline indeed.