octoberman

Banned
After WW1 Ukraine and Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia became independent along with Finland and Baltic states but got conquered by the Bolsheviks in the Russian civil war and incorporated into the Soviet Union which invaded by Nazi Germany in WW2 but what if Ukraine and Belarus and Caucasus until WW2 ? in OTL Ukraine and Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia got conquered because they were structurally weak but ITTL they have to organiztion to resist conquest.

How would Soviet Union develop without Ukranian grain and Caucasusian oil ?

How would Germany deal with these more states to it's east
 
Would there even be WW2 with weaker Soviet Union? Or would nazis even take power? Such thing would mean some really radical changes on Soviet Union that things would go pretty differently. How these all countries even remain as independent?
 
Would there even be WW2 with weaker Soviet Union? Or would nazis even take power? Such thing would mean some really radical changes on Soviet Union that things would go pretty differently. How these all countries even remain as independent?
It would just be the RSFSR ITTL, now that you mentioned it,
 
There is a less fear of communism. The nazi's may mot rise to power.
If they do there probably won't be a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Poland may ally with Belarus.
If WW2 happens it makes it easier for nazi-Germany to defat the smaller nations to the east before they get to Russia, which will be weaker.
 
There is a less fear of communism. The nazi's may mot rise to power.
If they do there probably won't be a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Poland may ally with Belarus.
If WW2 happens it makes it easier for nazi-Germany to defat the smaller nations to the east before they get to Russia, which will be weaker.
Before Hitler took power, interwar Germany had great economic relations with the Soviet Union thanks to the Treaty of Rapallo, both Germany and the Soviet Union used to economically help boost each other's strengths, If the Soviets lack the ukrainian grain and caucasian oil, they will be far less able to boost Germany, so when Hitler takes power (if he takes power in the first place), he'll have less strong Germany.

As for Central Europe, an alliance may be developed between Poland and Czechoslovakia, and the Little Entente may be more cohesive. The main problem in OTL was the fact that whereas others feared the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia was sympathetic to the Soviets. Czechoslovakia simply believed that only mighty Russia is capable of defending the Czechoslovaks, and Czechoslovaks were completely ignoring that the others do not share their prorussian views. That's the main problem behind the lack of cooperation between Czechoslovakia and Poland. If the Soviets are far away, then Czechoslovakia won't be seeking their assistance, and as such, Czechoslovakia's neighbours will be those with whom Czechoslovakia will be attempting to cooperate. Polish-czechoslovak alliance against Germany will be formed, and the alliance Czechoslovakia had in OTL with Romania against Hungary this time will work, because Romanians won't hesitate to honour it (no soviet threat behind their back).
 

octoberman

Banned
Before Hitler took power, interwar Germany had great economic relations with the Soviet Union thanks to the Treaty of Rapallo, both Germany and the Soviet Union used to economically help boost each other's strengths, If the Soviets lack the ukrainian grain and caucasian oil, they will be far less able to boost Germany, so when Hitler takes power (if he takes power in the first place), he'll have less strong Germany.

As for Central Europe, an alliance may be developed between Poland and Czechoslovakia, and the Little Entente may be more cohesive. The main problem in OTL was the fact that whereas others feared the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia was sympathetic to the Soviets. Czechoslovakia simply believed that only mighty Russia is capable of defending the Czechoslovaks, and Czechoslovaks were completely ignoring that the others do not share their prorussian views. That's the main problem behind the lack of cooperation between Czechoslovakia and Poland. If the Soviets are far away, then Czechoslovakia won't be seeking their assistance, and as such, Czechoslovakia's neighbours will be those with whom Czechoslovakia will be attempting to cooperate. Polish-czechoslovak alliance against Germany will be formed, and the alliance Czechoslovakia had in OTL with Romania against Hungary this time will work, because Romanians won't hesitate to honour it (no soviet threat behind their back).
do you mean the intermarium ?
 
can it fulfill the needs of USSR that Ukraine,Belarus,Caucasus fullfilled in OTL
Northern Kazakhstan is another breadbasket, and the Soviets moved a lot of industry and people east especially during WWII. So if Ukraine and Belarus were independent you’d see the Virgin Lands Campaign and eastern industrialization happen earlier. Central Asia and Siberia also have a lot of oil and natural gas, so you might see those developed earlier. Overall, the Soviet economic center of gravity shifts east sooner rather than later.
 

octoberman

Banned
Northern Kazakhstan is another breadbasket, and the Soviets moved a lot of industry and people east especially during WWII. So if Ukraine and Belarus were independent you’d see the Virgin Lands Campaign and eastern industrialization happen earlier. Central Asia and Siberia also have a lot of oil and natural gas, so you might see those developed earlier. Overall, the Soviet economic center of gravity shifts east sooner rather than later.
but will it be equal to that of Ukraine,Belarus,Caucasus ?
 
If WW2 happens it makes it easier for nazi-Germany to defat the smaller nations to the east before they get to Russia, which will be weaker.
I would say that Germany would still have a shift to the right, but with a more fascist aspect. Something more similar to what happened in Italy and Spain. Less focused on the racial issue, and more a movement wanting the return of the glory of Germany (Depending we may also have the return of the monarchy to the country, being this time merely symbolically power.)
 
I would say that Germany would still have a shift to the right, but with a more fascist aspect. Something more similar to what happened in Italy and Spain. Less focused on the racial issue, and more a movement wanting the return of the glory of Germany (Depending we may also have the return of the monarchy to the country, being this time merely symbolically power.)
Why none of the racial aspect in particular? And why the remaining class fears turning Germans to the right?

If they do there probably won't be a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Might there still be an MR Pact, but with its 'center of gravity' moved east - so the USSR (in Europe really just the RSFSR) gets Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine in the bargain, maybe half of Latvia - Germany gets all Poland, all Lithuania, half of Latvia, influence over all Romania?
 

octoberman

Banned
Might there still be an MR Pact, but with its 'center of gravity' moved east - so the USSR (in Europe really just the RSFSR) gets Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine in the bargain, maybe half of Latvia - Germany gets all Poland, all Lithuania, half of Latvia, influence over all Romania?
Are Germany and USSR capable of doing that while Britain and France are attacking Germany
 

thaddeus

Donor
the most plausible scenario might be for Poland to defeat "Soviet Russia?" seems more plausible to have a split along the Dnieper River? with some sort of federation allied with Poland, the same with more of Belarus.

again it is difficult to envision all of the Caucasus independent, but the three distinct countries Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan those could be more easily broken off from Russia? but they lack a power like Poland backing them?

it seems a recipe for Germany and Soviet Russia to cooperate, that Poland and the Intermarium aligned countries, primarily Romania would become both of their concern?
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
There is a less fear of communism. The nazi's may mot rise to power.
If they do there probably won't be a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Poland may ally with Belarus.
If WW2 happens it makes it easier for nazi-Germany to defat the smaller nations to the east before they get to Russia, which will be weaker.
Not sure an independent Belarus would be a good fit with Poland. The Poles' natural partner, Lithuania, was ruled out as both nations coveted the territory of the other, and the same applied in spades with Belarus.
 
What's left of the USSR will be much less powerful. It's economy probably 25%+ smaller. This state is still a great power, but hardly comparable to the USSR of OTL. Ukraine, fertile fields and the Donbas basin, contains significant amounts of everything, natural resources, population, industry, and perhaps most importantly, food needed to fuel a superpower. IOTL, between 1917 and 1948 there were several famines in the Soviet Union, of course with varying causes for each one. The famines after the end of the war will be much worse without Ukrainian grain. If the government remains committed to collectivization, which they most likely must be if the Bolsheviks are in charge, I could see the 30s being much hungrier in both the cities and the countryside of Russia proper. We know of grain warehouses containing rotting foodstuffs in the cities in 1933 confiscated from Ukrainian farmers, without that food, feeding Soviet cities gets much harder.

As to central Asia, what we will see first isn't the "virgin lands campaign" but de-nomadization, aka Genocide of Central Asian peoples. As in OTL, the hope was to turn nomads into farmers and then from there, as sedentary people, into perfect communist societies. What resulted was atrocious death, Kazakhs lost ~38-42% of their population or ~1.5-2.2 million people. This is new research, since it was taboo in Kazakhstan until very very recently, it's still taboo in much of the rest of Central Asia, so it's harder for researchers to figure out, but it's likely other parts of Central Asia also suffered. If the Soviets try to turn Northern Kazakhstan into an ersatz breadbasket, they likely will start with de-nomadization, and when that doesn't work, have to push in Russian farmers. OTL during both the Imperial and Soviet periods many Ukrainians settled in northern Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and the Far East and were pretty important in their development, likewise industrially those regions were far less industrialized before WWII as well.

I would guess that collectivization remains deadly even without the Ukrainian SSR as a field for genocide. Undoubtedly famines in Russia will be worse than IOTL without Ukrainian grain to confiscate. This could cause other problems, the Soviet modus operandi was in times of famine to just confiscate at gunpoint food in rural areas and bring it to the cities, the peasants being a disposable class in the Communist (and especially Marxist-Leninist) system.

What's interesting, is that with the Soviet Union further afield from Weimar Germany, maybe they will instead seek a military relationship with Ukraine and not the Soviet Union. Obviously, during WWI Germany supported the Skoropads'kyi regime, after Riga, Germany and Austria were a hotbed of Ukrainian exiles seeking to organize expeditions to invade Soviet occupied Ukraine. These were funded by diehard anti-communist businessmen in exchange for investment in a future liberated Ukraine. Some of these plans went further than you might think, before the UNR in-exile in Poland tried something similar and mucked it all up, scaring away many supporters. Of course, those plans would probably have failed as well, but it goes to show links between not only Imperial Germany as is widely known, but also Weimar Germany. This is an interesting possibility, Ukraine had a quarter of the USSR's heavy industry, and if Ukraine has Eastern Galicia, it also has oil, so it's a natural fit. Poland is an obvious mutual rival, if Czechoslovakia doesn't give Ukraine Zakarpattia it, likewise, will be a mutual rival, although I would imagine they probably would allow it to join Ukraine since that was the most popular vision for the region, and it was only due to pressure from Woodrow Wilson and Polish successes in the field of battle. Although what kind of government Ukraine has will effect this, although quite likely is a Democratic Socialist one, aligning with the German government before 1933. Likewise it's military is probably fairly right wing, so gets along with the Heer. If Ukraine wins independence, I'm assuming that Petliurist purges of the military do not happen. The execution of Col. Bolbochan and the firing of Oleksandr Hrekiv/Hrekov are the most significant examples of this short-sighted policy.

If Germany still signs Molotov-Ribbentrop, they probably retain Lithuania and much more territory in Poland, if not basically all of it, pending their Eastern borders ITTL. Indeed, perhaps, even if the Nazis and Stalin come to power ITTL, they do not see the need for the agreement at all, as the Soviet Union will be interested in expansion probably in the Caucasus first, outside the German area of immediate interest. Without Weimar-USSR agreements maybe the foundation is simply not there.

To determine Poland's relationship with Ukraine and Belarus, we'd have to get into specifics of how they achieve independence. Does the Polish-Ukrainian alliance win? Are the National-Democrats defeated, allowing Piłsudski to put a promethean in charge of negotiating at an alt-Riga following increased military successes? It's often forgotten that Poland was offered basically all of Belarus, including Minsk, as well as much of Central Ukraine, and they told the USSR to keep the territory since the National Democrats in charge of negotiating at Riga felt that they could not absorb too many non-Poles, otherwise assimilation and colonization of the East would be too difficult.
 
What's interesting, is that with the Soviet Union further afield from Weimar Germany, maybe they will instead seek a military relationship with Ukraine and not the Soviet Union. Obviously, during WWI Germany supported the Skoropads'kyi regime, after Riga, Germany and Austria were a hotbed of Ukrainian exiles seeking to organize expeditions to invade Soviet occupied Ukraine. These were funded by diehard anti-communist businessmen in exchange for investment in a future liberated Ukraine. Some of these plans went further than you might think, before the UNR in-exile in Poland tried something similar and mucked it all up, scaring away many supporters. Of course, those plans would probably have failed as well, but it goes to show links between not only Imperial Germany as is widely known, but also Weimar Germany. This is an interesting possibility, Ukraine had a quarter of the USSR's heavy industry, and if Ukraine has Eastern Galicia, it also has oil, so it's a natural fit. Poland is an obvious mutual rival, if Czechoslovakia doesn't give Ukraine Zakarpattia it, likewise, will be a mutual rival, although I would imagine they probably would allow it to join Ukraine since that was the most popular vision for the region, and it was only due to pressure from Woodrow Wilson and Polish successes in the field of battle. Although what kind of government Ukraine has will effect this, although quite likely is a Democratic Socialist one, aligning with the German government before 1933. Likewise it's military is probably fairly right wing, so gets along with the Heer. If Ukraine wins independence, I'm assuming that Petliurist purges of the military do not happen. The execution of Col. Bolbochan and the firing of Oleksandr Hrekiv/Hrekov are the most significant examples of this short-sighted policy.
When it comes to the german support for Ukraine, it's actually more than what you wrote. In OTL throughout the 1920s Poland had a trouble with the ukrainian nationalists acting through IRA-like terrorist actions against the polish state, the Ukrainian Military Organization. And this organization was purposely financed and equipped specifically by the Weimar Republic as a way to weaken Poland whose existence was (to quote Hans von Seeckt) "unacceptable and incomparible with Germany's vital interests". If Poland gets in TTL the lands gained in OTL, then the Ukraininians could decide "Alright, nice that you helped us, but now give us back our lands".

A lot of people tend to say that in OTL Poland betrayed Ukraine by partitioning it with Soviet Russia. But a crucial thing a lot of people overlook, is that the Ukrainians themselves had allowed the Poles to keep the disputed lands when the alliance was formed, so it's not a betrayal through partition, but rather "stopping the aid despite keeping the payment for help". Thus, even with Piłsudski's faction getting his version of the Treaty of Riga, Eastern Galicia and Volhynia would most likely end up in Poland anyway. And this could be a problem, because just like in OTL, the Weimar Republic would notice the ukrainian desire for these lands and thus Germany would definitely start encouraging the Ukrainians to demand them.
 
There is a less fear of communism. The nazi's may mot rise to power.
If they do there probably won't be a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Poland may ally with Belarus.
If WW2 happens it makes it easier for nazi-Germany to defat the smaller nations to the east before they get to Russia, which will be weaker.
What would happen to the UKA in such a situation? Bandera hopefully would not have to be damned as a Nazi collaborator.
 
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