Winter Of Discontent: The Confederate Elections Of 2013

[Brky2020]

Denominations
Protestant

• Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) - headquartered in Atlanta, current president Johnny Hunt
• Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States of America (PCCSA) - headquartered in Atlanta (OOC: OTL counterpart is the Presbyterian Church in America)
• Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee (CoGCT) - headquartered in Cleveland, Tennessee
• Association of Charismatic and Pentecostal Churches CSA (ACPC) - headquartered in Tampa, Florida, a loose association of the nation's charismatic churches, including those who practice "prosperity gospel" and word-of-faith doctrine, plus the Confederate-based churches associated with historical groups like the Assemblies of God
• Church of Christ, CSA - headquarted in Nashville, TN
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), CSA - headquartered in Louisville, KY
• Confederate Association of Free Will Baptist Churches - headquartered in Nashville, TN
• Association of Independent Baptist Churches (required as part of the individual churches' registration with the CCC) - headquartered in Atlanta (while the member churches are independent, they are required to register with the CCC; therefore, the AIBC was formed in 1954 to organize the churches for the sake of the CCC)
• National Liberty Christian Churches - headquartered in Lynchburg, VA, group of churches under the umbrella of Thomas Road Baptist Church
• Association of Related Churches - headquartered in Birmingham, AL, evangelical churches that are charismatic/pentecostal in doctrine
• Association of Sovereign Grace Churches (ASGC) - headquartered in Atlanta, GA, claims to be "Reformed and charismatic", in practice is the latter only in name
• New Reformed Fellowship - headquartered in Atlanta, associated with the SBC and meant to be the CSA's version of the Acts29 church planting network found in Free North America (originally was based in Seattle, then St. Louis, and now in Dallas).

Orthodox

• Russian Orthodox Churches in the CSA

Catholic

• OFFICIALLY BANNED
• Unofficially: numerous underground parishes, the largest believed to operate in Louisville; Atlanta; and Miami

Some of the most notable megachurches in the Confederate States

• Newspring Church - Greenville, SC, nondenominational
• Elevation Church - Charlotte, NC, nondenominational
• North Point Church - Atlanta, GA, SBC
• Without Walls Church - Tampa, FL, ACPC
• Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church - Fort Lauderdale, FL, PCA
• Church of the Highlands - Birmingham, AL, ARC
• Fellowship Bible Church - Little Rock, AR, nondenominational
• Northland Church - Orlando, FL, PCA
• Perimeter Church - suburban Atlanta, PCA
• First Baptist Church Atlanta - Atlanta, SBC
• Capitol Baptist Church Atlanta - Atlanta, SBC
• Sovereign Grace Church Atlanta - Atlanta, ASGC
• Cathedral at Chapel Hill - Atlanta, Confederate Charismatic Episcopal Ministries
• Free Chapel WOrship Center - suburban Atlanta, ACPC
• Mount Paran Church of God - suburban Atlanta, CoGCT
• First Baptist Church Jacksonville - Jacksonville, FL, SBC
• First Baptist Church Woodstock - suburban Atlanta, SBC
• Highview Baptist Church - Louisville, KY, SBC
• Southeast Christian Church - Louisville, KY, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ, CSA)
• Evangel World Prayer Center - Louisville, KY, ACPC
• Southland Church - Lexington, KY, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) CSA
• Reformed Church of the Highlands - Louisville, KY, SBC
• The SUmmitt Church - Raleigh, NC, SBC
• Morningstar Church - ROck Hill, SC, ACPC
• Seacoast Church - numerous locations in South Carolina, ARC
• Bethel World Outreach Center - suburban Nashville, TN, ACPC
• Bellevue Baptist Church - Memphis, TN, SBC
• Cross Point Church - Nashville, TN, nondenominational
• Christ Presbyterian Church - suburban Nashville, PCA
• Thomas Road Baptist Church - Lynchburg, VA, SBC/NLCC
• The Rock Church International - Virginia Beach, VA, ACPC

 

[Orville_third]

One big question that affects all this. Would the CCC try and unify churches under their jurisdiction? There are a lot more church bodies than those listed, and while many churches would agree on the CSA's position in politics, they would differ over other theological issues- and some denominations would have longstanding differences.

Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States of America (PCCSA) - headquartered in Atlanta (OOC: OTL counterpart is the Presbyterian Church in America)

I would assume it would also include Bible Presbyterians and Orthodox Presbyterians as well. Would the Associate Reformed Presbyterians be included too? And where would the Cumberland Presbyterians be?

Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee (CoGCT) - headquartered in Cleveland, Tennessee

There were various other churches in the Church of God movement that split around the time the US split OTL. Would the CCC have tried to unify them?

Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), CSA - headquartered in Louisville, KY

I can assume this version didn't grow more liberal over time like the DofC has.

Association of Independent Baptist Churches (required as part of the individual churches' registration with the CCC) - headquartered in Atlanta (while the member churches are independent, they are required to register with the CCC; therefore, the AIBC was formed in 1954 to organize the churches for the sake of the CCC)

I was thinking of adding a fundamentalist grouping, being based on the OTL Gospel Fellowship Association, with close ties to Bob Jones University.

I'm sure there may be some Methodists and Wesleyans left who agreed with the CSA's positions, as well as some Lutherans and Anglicans (who would likely not be part of the Anglican Communion). In addition, I think there can be a group of Dutch Reformed, mostly from South Africa. I can see a lot of them moving to a more "herrenvolk" society. Finally, there could be one or two or so congregations of some denominations from outside the CSA, to serve diplomats- or favorable local areas. (OTL, my hometown has a congregation of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster (home denomination of Ian Paisley) and the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing).)

There may be a few other Orthodox Congregations around (my OTL hometown has a sizable Greek community-though they're also not likely to have a Coptic community ITTL)- though they don't often go into politics.

In regards to Baptists, how are groups like the Landmark Baptists (who strongly favor no governmental influence in churches) and Primitive Baptists (ditto) faring? They would likely agree with CSA policies of government (depending on each member, of course), but they would be very upset over the CCC telling them what to do.

Does the CCC try and promote CCM in churches? If so, how do congregations and organizations that don't approve of CCM react to that?

Is there a "Christian Identity" type movement in the CSA? If so, does the CCC approve or disapprove? (It would likely go too far even for them.)

Is Redemption World Outreach Center (Greenville, SC) a major player? (Not a member- but they are pretty big here.)

 

[joea64]

I think, concurring with Orville, that you left the Episcopal and Methodist Churches out of that list. The Episcopal Church would be prominent in Virginia and the oldest-settled areas of the South (coastal North Carolina, the Lowcountry of coastal South Carolina and Georgia around Charleston, Beaufort and Savannah), etc. They would likely have a complicated relationship at best with the Anglican Communion at large.

 

[Brky2020]

My list wasn't meant to cover every possible denomination and sect. I was interested in what the religious landscape might look like ITTL CSA, and had only the information that had been established in canon and in PMs to go by. I went with what I knew, and PMed Chip to get his thoughts.

One big question that affects all this. Would the CCC try and unify churches under their jurisdiction? There are a lot more church bodies than those listed, and while many churches would agree on the CSA's position in politics, they would differ over other theological issues- and some denominations would have longstanding differences.

My assumption is that CCC would demand everyone to be on the same page on certain points of loyalty, doctrine, etc., and recognize that to unite everyone under one church would create more problems than resolve them. How much loyalty would you lose if you forced all the Calvinists to renounce Calvin? Presbyterians to be Baptist? And so on.

So. The CCC would allow the Southern Baptist Convention, and any denomination that wanted to play by Atlanta's rules, to exist as a separate entity. That might help pacify Christians who might potentially revolt or resist if Atlanta imposed the Southern Baptist Convention on everybody; if the government was overtly trying to tell every good Christian what to think about the Bible, down to the fact that they can't be Presbyterian, Church of God, Bible Baptist, King James Only, etc., how much more disloyalty would that engender among what the government has to consider to be its base?

The "diversity" of beliefs under the CCC tent gives the appearance that there is, in fact, religious diversity in the Confederacy.

As long as the Presbyterians, Church of God (Cleveland), Disciples of Christ, word-faith teachers, etc. play ball on the most important points, my assumption is that CCC could care less about your position on speaking in tongues, healing, infant baptism, etc.

Now if you believe in theistic evolution, or take a Marcus Borg/John Dominic Crossan-esque approach to Scripture, or take a liberal approach to homosexuality, then I think CCC would have problems with you...

I would assume it would also include Bible Presbyterians and Orthodox Presbyterians as well. Would the Associate Reformed Presbyterians be included too? And where would the Cumberland Presbyterians be?

I missed those groups. Wasn't sure that the Orthodox Presbyterians had any base in the south before 1950. In any case I would have made them separate denoms. Probably not very big, but still separate.

There were various other churches in the Church of God movement that split around the time the US split OTL. Would the CCC have tried to unify them?

Maybe not.

Abide by the rules, boys, and you can be the First Baptist Church of Dixie, 1864 and First Baptist Church of Dixie, 1865 for all we care.

I can assume this version didn't grow more liberal over time like the DofC has.

No. This version, in my mind, is conservative in doctrine, evangelical, largely family-friendly in practice.

I was thinking of adding a fundamentalist grouping, being based on the OTL Gospel Fellowship Association, with close ties to Bob Jones University.

I forgot about Bob Jones University! Great idea!

I'm sure there may be some Methodists and Wesleyans left who agreed with the CSA's positions, as well as some Lutherans and Anglicans (who would likely not be part of the Anglican Communion). In addition, I think there can be a group of Dutch Reformed, mostly from South Africa. I can see a lot of them moving to a more "herrenvolk" society. Finally, there could be one or two or so congregations of some denominations from outside the CSA, to serve diplomats- or favorable local areas. (OTL, my hometown has a congregation of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster (home denomination of Ian Paisley) and the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing).)

Interesting...

There may be a few other Orthodox Congregations around (my OTL hometown has a sizable Greek community-though they're also not likely to have a Coptic community ITTL)- though they don't often go into politics.

Maybe...

In regards to Baptists, how are groups like the Landmark Baptists (who strongly favor no governmental influence in churches) and Primitive Baptists (ditto) faring? They would likely agree with CSA policies of government (depending on each member, of course), but they would be very upset over the CCC telling them what to do.

I would think the CCC would be about the broad strokes, and making sure that everyone was on the same page as far as who God is, who Jesus is, the authority of Scripture, and support of the government. Those individuals willing to go along stayed; those not willing...either fled across the border, wound up in a gulag or were killed.

Does the CCC try and promote CCM in churches? If so, how do congregations and organizations that don't approve of CCM react to that?

Chip?

If it were me, I would allow for each sect's own "unique" expression of music, and use the iron fist only when forced to. Say, if some preacher decided to go on a media blitz and decry the government and CCM.

Is there a "Christian Identity" type movement in the CSA? If so, does the CCC approve or disapprove? (It would likely go too far even for them.)

???

Is Redemption World Outreach Center (Greenville, SC) a major player? (Not a member- but they are pretty big here.)

DIdn't know about them when I did the megachurch list. No reason not to add them, either.

 

[Brky2020]

I think, concurring with Orville, that you left the Episcopal and Methodist Churches out of that list. The Episcopal Church would be prominent in Virginia and the oldest-settled areas of the South (coastal North Carolina, the Lowcountry of coastal South Carolina and Georgia around Charleston, Beaufort and Savannah), etc. They would likely have a complicated relationship at best with the Anglican Communion at large.

Again, I missed a bunch of sects. Some, out of ignorance, some, out of the assumption based on canon that certain denoms, sects, etc. were verboten by the regime.

I might suggest that, in regards to a national denom's relationship with its global brethren, the CCC would say "if they want to embrace you, great. If not, your and our ultimate authority is Jesus, and as long as you don't renounce Him, you're fine. And, you still have the rest of your Confederate brothers and sisters."

 

[athleticsfan2kx]

BrianD, Even If You Know Christians in the CSA, Maybe you must like Jesus, anyhow watch CBN 8, "Stay With Us".

"We're CBN, We Brighten Your Day
We Light Up The Night
Stay With Us, We're CBN"
- CBN's Jingle from the 1984 when the Network is Run by Pat Robertson

 

[SonOfFreedom]

BrianD, Morningstar wouldn't be liked in the CSA. they're like IHOP in views on race. Joyner and the gang would be best suited in the underground.

 

[Brky2020]

BrianD, Morningstar wouldn't be liked in the CSA. they're like IHOP in views on race. Joyner and the gang would be best suited in the underground.

Morningstar can be removed from the list.

The question then, is would Joyner be a) an expat b) in 'internal exile', like Jimmy Carter c) like Mickie DeMoss, living in the underground d) in a gulag or e) dead.

 

[athleticsfan2kx]

BrianD, My Guess on a Previous Post to that Question My Answer is A) An Ex-Pat, Final Answer.

 

[joea64]

Brian, I see you were puzzled by Orville's question about Christian Identity. In brief, it's a VERY fringe movement, associated with the farthest of the far right OTL (often the same people who go muttering about Trilateral Commission conspiracies) which is explicitly anti-Semitic and holds that the aegis of God's "Chosen People" passed from the Jews when they "rejected" Christ and was bestowed on the Church, specifically, white, "Aryan" Christians. It's explicitly white-supremacist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

I think it would have a...complicated...position in the CSA. (Very interestingly, in OTL, David Duke espouses a form of Christian Identity theology: http://www.publiceye.org/rightist/idennlns.html ) As such, Duke and his cohorts would probably be sympathetic to Identity groups, but more "moderate" factions in the regime would prefer an arms-length (or more distant) relationship.

 

[SonOfFreedom]

BrianD, My Guess on a Previous Post to that Question My Answer is A) An Ex-Pat, Final Answer.

I'm thinking more like an underground church kind of thing going on. They would otherwise get along with most Confed Pentacostals especially on moral issues but siding against the government and siding with God (like the Tebows) on racial issues would force them underground like most of Chinese Christians OTL. Funny thing is the underground church in China is growing at an extremely high rate.

One thing Pentacostals were known for early on in the history of the movement was they were very progressive regarding race. The Jim Crow laws in the south forced these integrated churches to segregate which they did not want to do whatsoever. My own denomination (Assemblies of God) was affected by these forced racial splits. The COGIC and the A/G were one prior to these forced splits along racial lines iirc.

Another thing, you wouldn't find a Pentacostal taking up with the military either. Most of them are "peace churches" even to this day. Until 1967, the A/G strongly discouraged military service due to religious conscience.

 

[Chipperback]

I would think the CCC would be about the broad strokes, and making sure that everyone was on the same page as far as who God is, who Jesus is, the authority of Scripture, and support of the government. Those individuals willing to go along stayed; those not willing...either fled across the border, wound up in a gulag or were killed.

That is what the CCC became under Jerry Falwell's leadership. The CCC main role today is to meld state power with the faith power. Falwell often said, "The greatest foot soldiers of the CSA could be found in the pews. We just need to muster them effectively to achieve Godly rule."

But there is a growing conflict between this view and what Billy Graham's vision for the CCC was as the Chairman, as a conscience for the nation. In effect, a spiritual judiciary designed to keep the government Godly.

There are more people than one of ever realize who believe as Robert Tebow does and Rick Warren that the CCC as Warren said.

"Is not about anything of the Kingdom. It is more about advancing an earthly reign instead of the reign of our Lord. The CCC is the very idolatry that His word warns us is a path to hell."

Bob Jones University!

Its almost considered something of a military academy. A lot of CSS officers tend to graduate from there.

Does the CCC try and promote CCM in churches? If so, how do congregations and organizations that don't approve of CCM react to that?

The CCC doesn't "promote" Contemporary Christian Music sound over any other form in an official sense, but there is a subtle shove by the government for the CCC to be more open to a fresh, modern musical worship. That's one big reason why President Gingrich reached out to Toby McKeehan. McKeehan's artists strive be a "best of both worlds". They can be secular and fun and also be spiritual, church-approved and serious.And that is critical for this government.

Even the radical kids, the 18 movement kids, at least most of those kids do get their praise on at 11am Sunday Morning.

Even Confederate girls who secretly idolize Tammy Wynette, or want to be hot and pro-womyn like Ashton Shepard (hmm some believe is a gol' darn "liz-by-ann), or that boy in Asheville who tends to fancy other boys will be in the church house. The government understand this. The candidates for President regardless of party understand this. Some of the churches do as well If they want that generation to be a part of the unit, they have to make the processes relevant, and the music is a tool to that end.

What about Rick Joyner?

MorningStar Ministries is standing in Fort Hill, SC. Joyner actually is montored by the CCC and Atlanta, but not overly so...Because he is seen as rather "out there."

Bob Jones is seen in a similar light, but Jones is given more of a berth by the government, because Bob Jones University is similar today to what the Klan was in the early days of the "Second Confederate Republic", they are a good place to find the "Coalition of the Willing".

Bob Jones University students tend to become military personnel and CSS personnel. You can count on the Bob Jones graduate to take those gigs.

MorningStar's people, and the graduates of their college (and MorningStar has one), are less so, because of the bearing as "prophetic" Christians. They and those like them are a dilemma for the CCC. They don't necessarily speak against the order, but they do question it. And that can be a thorny issue for the nation.

Plus, for all the dismissal of Joyner in some accounts, the man has been smart enough to hide in plain sight and become an effective beacon of resistance, but a limited one, because Joyner and MorningStar refuse to work cooperatively with other dissident groups because of what they see has spiritual reasons. They will not work with a group that does not line up in perfect sync with their doctrine. This is a common disconnect within a lot of white faith-based resistance within the CSA. It is also one of the reasons that the Confederate Socialists have managed to make more headway that most would believe among white dissenters in the nation, because the common goal and the common foe are the primary consideration.

 

[Brky2020]

I'm thinking more like an underground church kind of thing going on. They would otherwise get along with most Confed Pentacostals especially on moral issues but siding against the government and siding with God (like the Tebows) on racial issues would force them underground like most of Chinese Christians OTL. Funny thing is the underground church in China is growing at an extremely high rate.

One thing Pentacostals were known for early on in the history of the movement was they were very progressive regarding race. The Jim Crow laws in the south forced these integrated churches to segregate which they did not want to do whatsoever. My own denomination (Assemblies of God) was affected by these forced racial splits. The COGIC and the A/G were one prior to these forced splits along racial lines iirc.

Another thing, you wouldn't find a Pentacostal taking up with the military either. Most of them are "peace churches" even to this day. Until 1967, the A/G strongly discouraged military service due to religious conscience.

Given what Chip says is canon...my thoughts were, based on what I've read thus far, is that the charismatic/pentecostal branch of Protestantism in the CSA is the most likely to deviate from the norm - including working with the NUR, secretly protecting dissidents, working with underground black churches and believers, et al.

In fact what I had in mind with the ACPC was an organization that on the surface was middle-of-the-road loyal to the CCC and Atlanta, with a vibrant underground movement working with the Black Fist, the 18, the NUR and the nation's black community.

Why?

The roots of the charismatic and pentecostal movement in OTL can be traced back to something called Azusa Street. Google it if you're unfamiliar with it. It was many things, one of which was, in its very early stages, a multi-racial movement. Being that it occurred in the early 20th century, it should have occurred ITTL as well.

The multiracial influences of Azusa Street, in my mind, would have persisted to this day, not just in Free America but behind the Cotton Curtain. While charismatic churches could not be openly multiracial, they could be part of the underground network working against the regime's policies - while having to guard against individuals in their churches who SUPPORT the regime - and, when the regime collapses, ready to stand up and be part of the new order that succeeds it.

 

[SonOfFreedom]

I'm rather familiar with your information on the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. I was thinking a similar meme with them within Confederate life. As a Pentecostal/Charismatic myself I was getting concerned that they would be portrayed as totally in lock step with Atlanta that's why I spoke up when I saw MorningStar on that list.

 

[Brky2020]

I'm rather familiar with your information on the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. I was thinking a similar meme with them within Confederate life. As a Pentecostal/Charismatic myself I was getting concerned that they would be portrayed as totally in lock step with Atlanta that's why I spoke up when I saw MorningStar on that list.

I understand your concern, and others who might think that.

 

[SonOfFreedom]

I understand your concern, and others who might think that.

Also, The COGCT is also Pentecostal in belief and practice. Ever heard of Perry Stone?

Also I was wondering has Chipperback explained why the Roman Catholic Church is banned in the CSA when historically they're as strong in the South as Baptists are iirc?

 

[athleticsfan2kx]

Also Does Jan Crouch worked here as an Ex-Patriot ITTL along with his husband Paul, Because They Host TBN's Praise The Lord?

 

[Chipperback]

The Duke University Debate -- Sunday March 3, 2012

Excerpts from the Confederate Whig Party Candidates Debate -- Sunday March 3, 2013

Under what conditions would as President would entertain peace talks with bordering North American nations such as the IRNA, The Plains and the Texans

VIRGINIA SENATOR JEFF BURTON: "There has to begin with a mutual respect. We respect their morals and beliefs if they respect ours. That means that their support for the subversive organizations trying to destablize our country has to cease. But, we in turn cannot have CSS operations conducted in their countries to the level that we have been. Respect is the beginning of that road to peace we all say we wish to be on."

GEORGIA CONGRESSMAN JOHN MICHAEL THOMAS: Interesting that Senator Burton like many of my opponents make the pointed statement about what the other side must do, but no mention of our role. We have a part to play in our own return to the world. For any change in our relations must begin with us. Starting with our entire posture. I'd begin with pulling troops back off the borders. The IRNA, the GPUR and the Lone Star Republic on have troops on the borders because we do. If we pull back, they'll pull back. The first step has to begin with all sides finding a better common ground than fight-or-flight."

VIRGINIA GOVERNOR JIM GILMORE: Regardless of our feelings on Washington, and being a Virginian, I am not a fan of the the Damnyankee regime. Regardless of how we feel about Austin or Omaha, a Confederate President has to be able to go to those cities and meet President Biden, or Rice-Hill or Wellstone and make our intention known and listen to theirs. An honest discussion face-to-face is not approval for our adversaries. If anything will must be willing to talk and show ourselves as a proud, free ,Christian nation."

FORMER NORTH CAROLINA CONGRESSWOMAN ELIZABETH HANFORD: I think the question jumps the gun. Before we can even consider our relations with the other nations, we have to consider peace within our own nation. We have to rebuild our moral fiber, especially when dealing with young people in chaos and the threat of terrorism. the breakdown of families and jobs. Those are the real issues. I'm more concerned about or people in Charlotte, Raleigh and Durham than in Washington, Omaha, and Austin.

By dealing with the more pressing economic and moral issues facing the CSA, we can better deal with our position relations to our enemies, and make no mistake, Omaha, Austin and Washington have each sought to be an enemy. Remember their indifference to our suffering after Felicity."

This is the voice of Southern Freedom. As you head into a new week, consider this. Friday, Saturday and Sunday, you have seen and heard from the Presidential Candidate in debates.

But what did we learn?

We learned that none of these people are prepared to talk about the real issues, especially the Whigs, spouting the same inanities, trying to be a lightweight band of Confederate Democrats.

And notice how none of them, not even the questioners, want to talk about the racial divide or the gender divide. Each Sink and Hanford, both women who have earned their right to be able to wear the paints, settle for a skirt, a smile and a deference.

Just another reason why we urge the Confederate people to end the ministrel show. OPEN THE ROLLS OR CLOSE THE POLLS.

This is the voice of Southern Freedom, and dedicated to the redemption of a free, humane nation for all who live in it.

 

[Brky2020]

Ever heard of Perry Stone?

Also I was wondering has Chipperback explained why the Roman Catholic Church is banned in the CSA when historically they're as strong in the South as Baptists are iirc?

Yes on the former, and there was an explanation somewhere on one of the Catherverse threads on the RCC.

 

[Brky2020]

Also Does Jan Crouch worked here as an Ex-Patriot ITTL along with his husband Paul, Because They Host TBN's Praise The Lord?

Good catch, athletics.

According to Wikipedia, Jan is from Georgia, Paul from Missouri. Both married in 1957.