WI: Version 2, Burgundy in the Protestant Reformation

[Liminia1]

Alright time to get absolutely flamed over the protestant reformation. At this point I think it would be quite safe to assume an independent Burgundy would remain nominally catholic and by the end of the counter-reformation fully catholic. The question I have is right now, would the emperor, Habsburg Austria convert to Protestantism against the catholic Burgundians or is that completely out of the question. My logic behind this reformation is that Martin Luther or the reformation in Germany would be targeted against the Rhine ecclesiastical electors who are Burgundian puppets. (Let's not get into calvinism and the other branches of the reformation just yet )
Could a protestant reformation even happen as successfully as in IOTL compared to an independent Burgundy because I can very well see Protestantism acting like the Hussites dying out due to both the Empire and Burgundy forcing Catholicism back into Northern Germany and Scandinavia.

 

[TeluguKhan]

Burgandy is surrounded by Hostile Catholics so it would not be storage for them to go protestant, and Austria would never convert as their emperorship derives from the pope

 

[Liminia1]

Burgandy is surrounded by Hostile Catholics so it would not be storage for them to go protestant, and Austria would never convert as their emperorship derives from the pope

I mean the pope at this point is just a rubber stamp due to the golden bull of 1356 right? What is stopping Austria who in theory gain the permanent support of Brandenburg, Saxony and possibly the palatine (by pretender or succession crisis) to switch?

 

[TeluguKhan]

You are absolutly correct about the HRE, but I stand with my opinion that Burgandy would convert

 

[Liminia1]

You are absolutly correct about the HRE, but I stand with my opinion that Burgandy would convert

I'm calling @isabella I want her opinion on how this alternate protestant reformation would work.

 

[Mildtryth]

I mean the pope at this point is just a rubber stamp due to the golden bull of 1356 right? What is stopping Austria who in theory gain the permanent support of Brandenburg, Saxony and possibly the palatine (by pretender or succession crisis) to switch?

That support is by no means guaranteed, and it'll only undermine their position with the other principalities that remain loyal to the Church.

 

[Nuraghe]

That support is by no means guaranteed, and it'll only undermine their position with the other principalities that remain loyal to the Church.

without forgetting that imperial power also depends on its ability to defend and support the imperial church from the expansionist aims of the princes ( being the former considerably more loyal to the emperor than their secular counterparts, it is natural to see Vienna continue to side with the church, also because they are useful allies for extending royal power, in places where the simple hard power of the Emperor cannot reach ) furthermore the legitimation deriving from the coronation in Rome is still immense and much sought after by aspiring Caesars ( Frederick III himself from recent Italian studies show that he was very active from a diplomatic point of view in the region and was actively sought both by the Papacy and by other local potentates as a guardian of peace and the balance of power in the region, but also in an anti-French role ) to conclude, being officially crowned Emperor gave a far superior power in dealing with the princes ( particularly in pushing through reforms ), this is one of the reasons why Maximilian wanted to go to Italy several times, in fact it can be said that in this period the direct imperial power in Italy was at its historical minimum but the soft one was stronger than ever


The Golden Bull of 1356, it simply had the sole purpose of limiting or blocking the Pope's direct interference in imperial elections, so as to avoid situations of political chaos in the HRE ( basically avoiding having multiple pretenders / Anti - Kings to the title at the same time )

 

[isabella]

I mean the pope at this point is just a rubber stamp due to the golden bull of 1356 right? What is stopping Austria who in theory gain the permanent support of Brandenburg, Saxony and possibly the palatine (by pretender or succession crisis) to switch?

I'm calling @isabella I want her opinion on how this alternate protestant reformation would work.

Neither Austria or Burgundy would have ANY reason for converting. The only reason for which OTL the Reformation got so much support was the fact who it was used against the centralisation of the HRE and as a way for reducing the powers of the Emperor. Its OTL diffusion in the Netherlands is strictly connected to the revolt against the Spanish rule who started with Philip II so an independent Burgundy would have ZERO reasons for converting. An Holy Roman Emperor would have still less reasons as that would deprive him of any chance to get the votes of the three Ecclesiastic electors who would NOT vote for a Protestant.

 

[Liminia1]

So the German protestant reformation would essentially be a second Hussite right? I can work with this.

 

[Liminia1]

I also would be curious on how an independent burgundy affects the French Huguenots? Would France still remain catholic? Would the Huguenots flee to Burgundy?

 

[Nuraghe]

So the German protestant reformation would essentially be a second Hussite right? I can work with this.

Exactly, it would be an autonomist movement led by the princes in opposition to an overly ambitious emperor who also has the consent of the Papal and the support of Burgundy ( perhaps the two potentates decide to divide the territories in the hands of the minor princes and actively suppress the "German liberties ", or at least that's how they are portrayed by the Protestant ATL propaganda ) for its centralizing policies, with obviously a conspicuous popular base ( from the religious point of view ) to support this " revolt " against the person of the Emperor ( not against the institution )

 

[Nuraghe]

I also would be curious on how an independent burgundy affects the French Huguenots? Would France still remain catholic? Would the Huguenots flee to Burgundy?

France would have remained Catholic, in no way except for possible miracles, a minority that at most reached 1 / 20 of the population of the entire kingdom, would be able to impose itself militarily and force its theological vision, but probably these refugees seeing that Burgundy is not a safe haven, they end up joining the part of the Reich that opposes the Brussels - Vienna axis, further strengthening the anti-Catholic element, and perhaps creating the basis for a new highly militant political entity ( in Otl Luther several times he wrote letters to convince the princes of the League of Smalkand to federalize among themselves, in order to have a single foreign policy, greater defense capacity and cohesion, all appeals unheard in OTL, but perhaps in this scenario the opposite happens , but it may be that Calvino or Zwingli will end up leading this union ( is that how it is written ?, I don't remember now )

 

[Liminia1]

France would have remained Catholic, in no way except for possible miracles, a minority that at most reached 1 / 20 of the population of the entire kingdom, would be able to impose itself militarily and force its theological vision, but probably these refugees seeing that Burgundy is not a safe haven, they end up joining the part of the Reich that opposes the Brussels - Vienna axis, further strengthening the anti-Catholic element, and perhaps creating the basis for a new highly militant political entity ( in Otl Luther several times he wrote letters to convince the princes of the League of Smalkand to federalize among themselves, in order to have a single foreign policy, greater defense capacity and cohesion, all appeals unheard in OTL, but perhaps in this scenario the opposite happens , but it may be that Calvino or Zwingli will end up leading this union ( is that how it is written ?, I don't remember now )

Burgundy is not necessarily aligned with the habsburgs they are still bitter catholic rivals. The only thing is I might make Burgundy into a France in the religious wars.

 

[Nuraghe]

Burgundy is not necessarily aligned with the habsburgs they are still bitter catholic rivals. The only thing is I might make Burgundy into a France in the religious wars.

I understood that, but for the minor princes of the Reich or for the first Protestants, they will see them as their mortal adversaries ( and I do not rule out that an Emperor, in order to keep Burgundy good, and obtain their help against the Protestants, promises this last to annex all the territories that he manages to take away from the heretics, except those who were ecclesiastics, who must return to the Pope/church )

 

[Liminia1]

I understood that, but for the minor princes of the Reich or for the first Protestants, they will see them as their mortal adversaries ( and I do not rule out that an Emperor, in order to keep Burgundy good, and obtain their help against the Protestants, promises this last to annex all the territories that he manages to take away from the heretics, except those who were ecclesiastics, who must return to the Pope/church )

Oh 100% at least for the first league

 

[Nuraghe]

France would have remained Catholic, in no way except for possible miracles, a minority that at most reached 1 / 20 of the population of the entire kingdom, would be able to impose itself militarily and force its theological vision, but probably these refugees seeing that Burgundy is not a safe haven, they end up joining the part of the Reich that opposes the Brussels - Vienna axis, further strengthening the anti-Catholic element, and perhaps creating the basis for a new highly militant political entity ( in Otl Luther several times he wrote letters to convince the princes of the League of Smalkand to federalize among themselves, in order to have a single foreign policy, greater defense capacity and cohesion, all appeals unheard in OTL, but perhaps in this scenario the opposite happens , but it may be that Calvino or Zwingli will end up leading this union ( is that how it is written ?, I don't remember now )

I understood that, but for the minor princes of the Reich or for the first Protestants, they will see them as their mortal adversaries ( and I do not rule out that an Emperor, in order to keep Burgundy good, and obtain their help against the Protestants, promises this last to annex all the territories that he manages to take away from the heretics, except those who were ecclesiastics, who must return to the Pope/church )

in the end I imagine a Reich, which finds itself with 3 poles of power in opposition to each other, Burgundy in the West, the Habsburgs in southern Germany and finally the Protestants in the northern parts of the Empire, with the ecclesiastical electors and the other possessions of the church imperial, who suffer the influence and pressure ( military and otherwise ) of these 3 entities, now technically Max and Philip could want to support a peasant revolt against the smaller territories of the Reich ( similar to the Otl peasant war of 1523 - 1526, whereas already in the 1490s, there were important outbreaks of peasant revolts in the southern regions of the HRE ), especially if concomitant with the chaos and political - social tension caused by the ATL Reform ( I can easily see Max and Burgundy ending up in a proxy competition, in an attempt to subtly co-opt the revolt, for their own interests ( an example of this, can be that imperial agitators infiltrate it, to try to convince the crowd, to strengthen the power of the Habsburgs, perhaps by ceding the territories conquered by it ( to the princes ) directly to Austria ) while I can see Burgundy not too happy to this development, instead proposes an opposite solution ( such as the creation of an imperial republic, a sort of free city but with a large territory under its control, similar to the Italian states of the time, or strengthening a local princely dynasty, its ally or at least neutral ) of course it cannot be excluded that the Protestants will certainly want to have their say in the area ( it is that they will have notable expansionist ambitions, even if only to prevent someone from Burgundy, the Pope or the Habsburgs from ending up putting their hands in those territories )

 

[Liminia1]

in the end I imagine a Reich, which finds itself with 3 poles of power in opposition to each other, Burgundy in the West, the Habsburgs in southern Germany and finally the Protestants in the northern parts of the Empire, with the ecclesiastical electors and the other possessions of the church imperial, who suffer the influence and pressure ( military and otherwise ) of these 3 entities, now technically Max and Philip could want to support a peasant revolt against the smaller territories of the Reich ( similar to the Otl peasant war of 1523 - 1526, whereas already in the 1490s, there were important outbreaks of peasant revolts in the southern regions of the HRE ), especially if concomitant with the chaos and political - social tension caused by the ATL Reform ( I can easily see Max and Burgundy ending up in a proxy competition, in an attempt to subtly co-opt the revolt, for their own interests ( an example of this, can be that imperial agitators infiltrate it, to try to convince the crowd, to strengthen the power of the Habsburgs, perhaps by ceding the territories conquered by it ( to the princes ) directly to Austria ) while I can see Burgundy not too happy to this development, instead proposes an opposite solution ( such as the creation of an imperial republic, a sort of free city but with a large territory under its control, similar to the Italian states of the time, or strengthening a local princely dynasty, its ally or at least neutral ) of course it cannot be excluded that the Protestants will certainly want to have their say in the area ( it is that they will have notable expansionist ambitions, even if only to prevent someone from Burgundy, the Pope or the Habsburgs from ending up putting their hands in those territories )

Thanks for all the input y'all. Hopefully I can write this triarchy of the Holy Roman Empire well.