WI: The Japanese Southern Court won the Nanboku-chō wars?

FDW

Banned
Korea would never settle for anything less than reclaiming Jeju Island, as the memories of the wokou raids would still be fresh. Having the island remain autonomous is just as likely as Kyushu or a portion of it becoming de facto independent as well, in which both probabilities would be extremely unlikely given the states' strong attachment to both.

However, the Jeju-do still had local autonomy at this time, and Japan can offer the crucial piece of offering to help root out the Wakou (given that they largely emerged OTL in absence of a Central government, it's at least doable to an extent) in any peace treaty that would emerge.
 
However, the Jeju-do still had local autonomy at this time, and Japan can offer the crucial piece of offering to help root out the Wakou (given that they largely emerged OTL in absence of a Central government, it's at least doable to an extent) in any peace treaty that would emerge.

Any semblance of autonomy would be quickly stamped out once Goryeo declares war on Japan. Korea decided to let the Yuan retain the island in return for the latter leaving the peninsula alone, but Japan would not be in a position to impose such an authority in this situation. In addition, given how Goryeo attempted to carry out a suicidal attack on the Ming decades later, the generals would all be in support of "punishing" Japan for such a belligerent maneuver, as they would be in a much more influential position.
 

katchen

Banned
Given the History of the Touhoku region OTL, it's probably going to take 1-2 centuries to completely consolidate Hokkaido. Sakhalin and the Kurils aren't going to be an option until more than halfway through that. Anything on the Mainland itself would be downright retarded.
Maybe the Mainland might not be so retarded FDW. I got to thinking. One thing about the Japanese at this time is that their trade goes much farther than their military reach. If the Japanese subdue Sakhalin (a logical step after Hokkaido), at the northern end, they are across a 10 mile strait from the mouth of the Amur River.
It would not be terribly difficult for Japanese coastal galleys to row up the Sea of Japan coast to the Amur mouth. Once there, being flat botomed, they could navigate the sand bars that are the bane of keeled vessels attempting to sail up the mouth of that river and start to row up the Amur, which has a relatively low population of Doyon, Lamut and Evenk people. How much the Japanese would want to actually conquer the people of the lower and middle Amur and how much simply trade with them would be unclear. But eventually, one reaches the head of navigation on the Amur---in the territory of the Northern Yuan post 1388 (before 1388, it is simply the Mongolian side of the Yuan Empire). From there, the overland trade routes at that time run clear to Tanis or Kaffa on the Black Sea (when there isn't an epidemic of Black Death going on), to Persia and India, and to Russia, Poland and the rest of Europe. Japanese traders and samurai, particularly ronin can travel those trade routes.And they will be participating in the politics and events in Mongolia and at the ends of those trade routes and keeping Japan informed of them, even if Japan does not directly get involved in most of them.

See Wikipedia Northern Yuan
he Yuan remnants retreated to Mongolia after the fall of Yingchang to the Ming Dynasty in 1370, where the name Great Yuan was formally carried on, known as the Northern Yuan. The Northern Yuan rulers also buttressed their claim on China,[10][11] and held tenaciously to the title of Emperor (or Great Khan) of the Great Yuan (Dai Yuwan Khaan, or 大元可汗)[12] to resist the Ming who had by this time become the real ruler of China. The Ming army pursued the Northern Yuan forces into Mongolia in 1372, but were defeated by the latter under Ayushridar (r. 1370–78) and his general Köke Temür (d. 1375). In 1375, Nahacu, a Mongol official of Biligtu Khan (Ayushridara) in Liaoyang province invaded Liaodong with aims of restoring the Mongols to power. Although he continued to hold southern Manchuria, Nahacu finally surrendered to the Ming Dynasty in 1387–88 after a successful diplomacy of the latter.[13] The Yuan loyalists under Kublaid prince Basalawarmi (the Prince of Liang) in Yunnan and Guizhou were also destroyed by the Ming in 1381-82.[14]
The Ming tried again towards Northern Yuan in 1380, ultimately winning a decisive victory over Northern Yuan forces around the Buir Lake region in 1388. About 70,000 Mongols were taken prisoner and the Mongol capital Karakorum was sacked and destroyed.[15] It effectively destroyed the power of the Khaan's Mongols for a long time, and allowed the Western Mongols to become supreme.[16]
Rise of the Oirats (1388–1478)[edit source | editbeta]

See also: Four Oirats
In 1388, the Northern Yuan throne was taken over by Yesüder, a descendant of Arik Böke (Tolui's son), instead of the descendants of Kublai Khan. After the death of his master Togus Temur (r. 1378–88), Gunashiri, a descendant of Chagatai Khan, founded his own small state called Qara Del in Hami.[17] The following century saw a succession of Chinggisid rulers, many of whom were mere figureheads put on the throne by those warlords who happened to be the most powerful. From the end of the 14th century there appear designations such as "period of small kings" (Бага хаадын үе) for this period in modern historiography.[18] On one side stood the Oirats (or Western Mongols) in the west against the Eastern Mongols. While the Oirats drew their side to the descendants of Arik Boke and other princes, Arugtai of the Asud supported the old Yuan khans. Another force was the House of Ogedei who briefly attempted to reunite the Mongols under their rule.
The Mongols split into three main groups: western Mongols, the Mongol groups under the Uriankhai in northeast, and the Eastern Mongols between the two. The Uriankhai and some Borjigin princes surrendered to the Ming Dynasty in the 1390s...
There's a lot more history of conflict between the Mongols and the Ming in the 1400s. That history may not be relevant ITTL. If the Northern Yuan post 1370 establish good relations with Japan, they may have help against China and may not lose the war against China. They won't recapture China, of course. But they may retain their independence with Japanese help ITTL.
 

FDW

Banned
Any semblance of autonomy would be quickly stamped out once Goryeo declares war on Japan. Korea decided to let the Yuan retain the island in return for the latter leaving the peninsula alone, but Japan would not be in a position to impose such an authority in this situation. In addition, given how Goryeo attempted to carry out a suicidal attack on the Ming decades later, the generals would all be in support of "punishing" Japan for such a belligerent maneuver, as they would be in a much more influential position.

Maybe so, but all Japan really needs to do in this situation is not lose horribly and hold long enough for mutual exhaustion to settle in. Sure, Japan won't actually gain the island itself and it will have spent a lot of money on this conflict, but the retention of the status quo through mutual exhaustion can still be spun as a victory within Japan.

Maybe the Mainland might not be so retarded FDW. I got to thinking. One thing about the Japanese at this time is that their trade goes much farther than their military reach. If the Japanese subdue Sakhalin (a logical step after Hokkaido), at the northern end, they are across a 10 mile strait from the mouth of the Amur River.

Getting there is doable, but actually successfully controlling the area in the long term is not doable.
 
Maybe so, but all Japan really needs to do in this situation is not lose horribly and hold long enough for mutual exhaustion to settle in. Sure, Japan won't actually gain the island itself and it will have spent a lot of money on this conflict, but the retention of the status quo through mutual exhaustion can still be spun as a victory within Japan.

Assuming that Japan somehow manages to wrest Jeju away from the Yuan, it makes very little sense for it to attempt to retain the island if Korea attempts to militarily intervene. Tsushima would be a much more reasonable alternative regarding trade with Korea, as it is much closer to the two states, and had been part of Japan for centuries. In addition, Jeju would be a nightmare to supply, given that it is located much closer to the peninsula, while the currents flow in the opposite direction. As a result, the Japanese would probably abandon the island after several months or so in order to focus on defending its main islands, which would remain open to invasion otherwise.

Jeju might provide as a convenient stopover in terms of trade routes leading to China, but that route still requires skimming the Korean coastline, while there are plenty of other convenient ones available much further south. As a result, Japan would probably not risk antagonizing a militarized Korea in order to accomplish such minor gains.
 
This thread seems high on conjecture and low on research. How exactly would the Southern Court win, assuming a POD after Emperor Go-Daigo flees to Yoshino (if he doesn't do so, there is no Southern Court)? It's almost impossible to have the Southern Court win in the period, unless it literally wins in 1338, the year of the move to Yoshino.

In 1338, the Southern Court's two best generals, Nitta Yoshisada and Kitabatake Akiie both die. Kitabatake Chikafusa is stuck in Hitachi, surrounded by the Northern Court's territory. By 1342, once Hitachi goes, the Southern Court is in no position to launch any more offensives. The main divisions in the Northern camp, say Ashikaga Tadayoshi vs. the Ko brothers, have yet to reach their worst. While Yoshino is in a fine defensive position, it poses no real threat to Ashikaga victory.

Most of the nobles have sided with the Northern Court. The Southern Court's aims (at least under Go-Daigo) are largely antithetical to that of the warrior class that has come to power after the end of the Kamakura Bakufu. The areas that didn't really come under Ashikaga control, like Kyushu and Mutsu-Dewa, didn't go over to the Southern Court historically, so I don't see why they would in this world. I see no reason offered here why the Southern Court would win, except to handwave away the massive difficulties that it faces.
 
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