WI: Pop Culture in a world without 9/11?

[CountDVB]

I don't see Obama running in 2008 and he likely stayed in the Senate. 08 might just be Hillary Clinton path to the White House. Then again, a lot depends on 04 and whatever Bush win a second term, or if Kerry can pull off a victory even if his Presidency isn't a sham dunk. (The man still being stiff and boring a lot like Al Gore was before.) Heck maybe Clinton pulls a fast one,and steals the primaries right out of Kerry's hands while he gets burned by the Great Recession. (Think back to 76 and just how close Ronald Reagan came to beating Ford's place in the election.) Even all the way back to Bill's first inauguration in 93 people saw Hillary as Presidential and a future candidate for the White House and many thought she be the first woman president.

I mean, Kerry may be viewed as not that interesting, but with the dotcom bubble burst in the early 2000s and all Bush Jr has to go showing for it were cut taxes on the wealthy, it's going to be an uphill battle for him to try and maintain the presidency. I think whether or not H. Clinton would beat Kerry is... difficult to say. She might run against him in the primaries, but may pull out when the Recession hits so she doesn't inherit a mess (plus also to maintain some further unity with the Democrats). That said, I do see Hillary likely winning in this timeline here, evem if the details are pretty wild.

If W pulls a victory off in 04 and is left a lame duck, the field would be pretty wild to say the least.
2012, or even 2016 would be Obama's year, but that much more guess work.

That depends on Obama's record. While he was quite the orator, him developing more in the Senate will mean that expectations will be placed upon him regarding what he vots for and supports. He could potentially win, but he'd be a bit of a different Obama than OTL.

The smart and safe money would be on Hong Kong and China itself. Heck, before 2001 everyone foresaw a supposed Second Cold War between America and China. The Hainan Island incident was made out to be the second 1960 U-2 incident by the news at the time, but then came 9/11 and the War on Terror and the rest is history.

So TTL Iron Man Movie would be much more closer to the comics.

Honestly, I can see tensions between the Americans and China cooling for the sake of economic prosperity so the comics could reflect Tony working with some Chinese folk to stop the Mandarian (who isn't even Chinese, but Anglo-Mongolian technically.)

 

[CountDVB]

It hard to say. It easy to forget, but Bush did run on a domestic policy first and foremost. The big things would be reeling from the dot-com bubble popping, his attempts on school reform, and tax cuts plus the issue of same-sex marriage. Also he was big on reducing the DoD budgets of all things before 2001 made a 180 on that hard.

Yup. Plus things from the Enron Scandal would haunt his administration depending on how he'd handle things. As for reducing the DoD's budget... that may be harder to do than expected in some cases. But yeah, the issues with domestics will be troublesome for him despite his efforts, namely due to his inner circle.

It a general rule the ruling party does poorly in midterms and the other party does well. 98 and 2002 was the big flips to that rule. The latter due to the Rally Around the Flag around Bush and the War on Terror and his still high approval rating.

Without any of that, the Dems would win big in the midterms, winning the House/keep the Senate, or even both top of deal Bush dealing with all the big company scandals, not just Enron. Rolling back his tax cuts/failure to pass the second one could be something.

Yeah, for sure. While the Dems' gains may be modest, they would still be gains and Bush would be suffering over for that. Hence why it's likely for him to lose in 2004. Even if he does win, it'd be a pretty unfun ride, especially with Katrina and the like waiting.

Although Kerry is unlikely to run in 04 himself without 9/11 and Iraq. You may actually have a rematch between Bush and Gore of all things instead.

As for Russia, there would be no Russian reset and you see a hardline still aim at Moscow and Putin.

Honestly, Kerry did have his fair deal of endorsements though so I could see him still running. If he doesn't, then it'd be Dean vs Edwards. Dean I think may be able to get the win thanks to his whole 'fiscal responsability' angle. The fact that he was willing to undo the Bush taxcuts would seem like he'd be willing to try and raise taxes on the wealthy to a degree. This might help him enough to win reelection over in 2008 and dealing with the Recession. I'd also see Dean implement a national version of the Dr. Dynesaur program, which is a public healthcare program in Vermont for minors. Would also see Dean go and make DoD budget cuts though he may go and do an audit on it first if Bush Jr doesn't do it.

Though no Russian reset may mean that the US would be more alert regarding Russian cyberwarfare.

 

[CountDVB]

As for pop culture, a 2004 president Howard Dean would become an influential figure. While he is viewed as a fiscal conservative, his experience in Vermont and so on would mean he'd ave an idea on budget balancing and additionally, without 9/11, allow him to go and make cuts to the DoD. Plus, his willing to undo the taxcuts would mean that he'd be willing to raise taxes to go and try and balance the US budget and to fund any public healthcare. The Great Recession would be tricky, but he may be able to pull off something better than Bush OTL or possibly Obama OTL. Public healthcare benefits, least outside making Dr. Dynesaur national, would probably be incremental, but easier to do. If he does good enough over with handling the Recession, he may be able to further grow public healthcare in 2010. As such, I would expect to see a renewed faith over in the systems of politics for a while. This would certainly throw some things for a loop.

He'd likely become pretty popular for this accomplishments and viewed as pretty responsible and reliable. Additionally, given how he pioneered Internet-based fundraising and grassroots organizing, this may mean the idea would become mainstream faster, and thus see that implemented in politics and elsewhere sooner. Imagine something like Patreon or the like coming out in like 2008 or 2009 instead of 2013. This would have massive rammifications, especially as this would be the growing age of Youtube and the like. As such, online pop culture would be influenced with the likely earlier presence of crowd-funding and the like, especially for those on YouTube before the algorithm change of 2012. Sites like Newgrounds wouldn't lose relevance while newer ones would see it as a potential way to help for maintanance fees and the like.

In terms of zeitgeist, he'd restore some levels of optimism or at least keep things from being as cynical though I aspect some traces of the cynical to remain, albeit more nuanced and specific. Not sure who he'd pick as his running mate though.

 

[Twiggierjet]

I think this thread has a tendency to overestimate how much of a direct impact on pop culture different presidents have.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

As for pop culture, a 2004 president Howard Dean would become an influential figure. While he is viewed as a fiscal conservative, his experience in Vermont and so on would mean he'd ave an idea on budget balancing and additionally, without 9/11, allow him to go and make cuts to the DoD. Plus, his willing to undo the taxcuts would mean that he'd be willing to raise taxes to go and try and balance the US budget and to fund any public healthcare. The Great Recession would be tricky, but he may be able to pull off something better than Bush OTL or possibly Obama OTL. Public healthcare benefits, least outside making Dr. Dynesaur national, would probably be incremental, but easier to do. If he does good enough over with handling the Recession, he may be able to further grow public healthcare in 2010. As such, I would expect to see a renewed faith over in the systems of politics for a while. This would certainly throw some things for a loop.

He'd likely become pretty popular for this accomplishments and viewed as pretty responsible and reliable. Additionally, given how he pioneered Internet-based fundraising and grassroots organizing, this may mean the idea would become mainstream faster, and thus see that implemented in politics and elsewhere sooner. Imagine something like Patreon or the like coming out in like 2008 or 2009 instead of 2013. This would have massive rammifications, especially as this would be the growing age of Youtube and the like. As such, online pop culture would be influenced with the likely earlier presence of crowd-funding and the like, especially for those on YouTube before the algorithm change of 2012. Sites like Newgrounds wouldn't lose relevance while newer ones would see it as a potential way to help for maintanance fees and the like.

In terms of zeitgeist, he'd restore some levels of optimism or at least keep things from being as cynical though I aspect some traces of the cynical to remain, albeit more nuanced and specific. Not sure who he'd pick as his running mate though.

I don't think Dean's road to power would be smooth or easy.

Remember, the turn of the century was marking the beginning of America's hyperpolarization, and without 9/11, Dean would still face dog whistles and assertions of socialism.

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Bush wins 2004 without 9/11 in a blowout. You've either got a peace and prosperity election or a rally around the flag/khaki eleciton if he did Iraq anyways to boost his numbers from OTL.

 

[CountDVB]

I think this thread has a tendency to overestimate how much of a direct impact on pop culture different presidents have.

The decisions of their administrations, along with their successes and failures do have an influence on the atmosphere and zeitgeist

 

[CountDVB]

I don't think Dean's road to power would be smooth or easy.

Remember, the turn of the century was marking the beginning of America's hyperpolarization, and without 9/11, Dean would still face dog whistles and assertions of socialism.

Which was spurred on a good bit by 9/11 so the polarization is gonna be slowed a bit. Meanwhile, whether the accusations to Dean will stick is a different question. He an a balanced budget while also instituting healthcare. His record will speak for himself and he's gonna let them know it.

Bush wins 2004 without 9/11 in a blowout. You've either got a peace and prosperity election or a rally around the flag/khaki eleciton if he did Iraq anyways to boost his numbers from OTL.

Prosperity? This was when the dotcom bubble burst and then followed by the Enron scandal and various other company fuckeries. These things are gonna be what the Bush Administration needs to deal with and I suspect they won't be doing that good of a job.

And invading Iraq without 9/11 is a massively risky move that is gonna backfire sooner over in his face I suspect.

 

[Twiggierjet]

The decisions of their administrations, along with their successes and failures do have an influence on the atmosphere and zeitgeist

Not nearly as directly as people seem to assume in a lot of AH stories

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

Which was spurred on a good bit by 9/11 so the polarization is gonna be slowed a bit. Meanwhile, whether the accusations to Dean will stick is a different question. He an a balanced budget while also instituting healthcare. His record will speak for himself and he's gonna let them know it.

So you're saying that, with no 9/11, the sluggish economy of the early 2000s would be the most prominent issue, and Dean would be the more prominent candidate.

Would he still be prominent even if he made the infamous scream?

 

[CountDVB]

Not nearly as directly as people seem to assume in a lot of AH stories

I think it’s more that it’s become morn prominent in modern times with mass media and the like.

 

[JCC the Alt Historian]

Something I learned recently about the Trump International Hotel and Tower. Apparently back during its planning stages, the skyscraper would have stood 1,500 feet (457.2 m). However, following the September 11th Attacks, Donald Trump cut down the project to just 1,171 feet (356.9 m) at the roof and 1,388 feet (423.1 m) at the top of the antenna.

Had 9/11 never happened, then the building would have been built to its original 1,500 foot plan and Chicago at the time would have been home once again to the world's tallest building.

Sorry for mentioning Donald Trump guys, but it was just an interesting piece of trivia I found.

 

[Historyman 14]

I mean, Kerry may be viewed as not that interesting, but with the dotcom bubble burst in the early 2000s and all Bush Jr has to go showing for it were cut taxes on the wealthy, it's going to be an uphill battle for him to try and maintain the presidency. I think whether or not H. Clinton would beat Kerry is... difficult to say. She might run against him in the primaries, but may pull out when the Recession hits so she doesn't inherit a mess (plus also to maintain some further unity with the Democrats). That said, I do see Hillary likely winning in this timeline here, evem if the details are pretty wild.


That depends on Obama's record. While he was quite the orator, him developing more in the Senate will mean that expectations will be placed upon him regarding what he vots for and supports. He could potentially win, but he'd be a bit of a different Obama than OTL.

Either case, a H.Clinton Presidency, or a much more experience and credit under his belt Obama Presidency in this No 9/11 World would be wild to see and what exactly they face in that.

Yup. Plus things from the Enron Scandal would haunt his administration depending on how he'd handle things. As for reducing the DoD's budget... that may be harder to do than expected in some cases. But yeah, the issues with domestics will be troublesome for him despite his efforts, namely due to his inner circle.



Yeah, for sure. While the Dems' gains may be modest, they would still be gains and Bush would be suffering over for that. Hence why it's likely for him to lose in 2004. Even if he does win, it'd be a pretty unfun ride, especially with Katrina and the like waiting.

It helps there no massive overseas wars in the Middle East to drain big dollars. (Like $8 trillion something.) But true.

And that would stopped any hope of a Invasion of Iraq if the Dems can block him

In terms of zeitgeist, he'd restore some levels of optimism or at least keep things from being as cynical though I aspect some traces of the cynical to remain, albeit more nuanced and specific. Not sure who he'd pick as his running mate though.

I don't think Dean's road to power would be smooth or easy.

Remember, the turn of the century was marking the beginning of America's hyperpolarization, and without 9/11, Dean would still face dog whistles and assertions of socialism.

The decisions of their administrations, along with their successes and failures do have an influence on the atmosphere and zeitgeist

A lot depends on on a lot of factors (Things at home and aboard, elections, Supreme Court, natural disasters, things outside his control and influence etc,) but given it been said the TTL 2000s become an sorta Lost Era, a fairly successful Dean's White House/someone who can get stuff done could be a sorta light spot overall.

Bush wins 2004 without 9/11 in a blowout. You've either got a peace and prosperity election or a rally around the flag/khaki eleciton if he did Iraq anyways to boost his numbers from OTL.

Which was spurred on a good bit by 9/11 so the polarization is gonna be slowed a bit. Meanwhile, whether the accusations to Dean will stick is a different question. He an a balanced budget while also instituting healthcare. His record will speak for himself and he's gonna let them know it.


Prosperity? This was when the dotcom bubble burst and then followed by the Enron scandal and various other company fuckeries. These things are gonna be what the Bush Administration needs to deal with and I suspect they won't be doing that good of a job.

And invading Iraq without 9/11 is a massively risky move that is gonna backfire sooner over in his face I suspect.

Even in OTL, the Invasion of Iraq and staying there in the aftermath burned W himself as much as it burned the United States and our goodwill with the World Community. It was one the big reason why the OTL election was so close for Bush and why Kerry did so well.

And if the Dems can control/hold onto Congress as well as the lack of good justification/no ongoing war, it a non-started. Again, Bush actually ran on a soft isolationist platform in 2000 no matter how much he wanted to toss Saddam out of power himself as well as people on both sides.

Never mind he still be follow by the 2000 controversies of the last election on.

Even if he tries his hardest, Bush is always going to have a hard time in a world without 9/11 and the War on Terror. He had a hard time in OTL with his second term as it was.

 

[CountDVB]

So you're saying that, with no 9/11, the sluggish economy of the early 2000s would be the most prominent issue, and Dean would be the more prominent candidate.

Would he still be prominent even if he made the infamous scream?

Yup. That was actually something I learned on in my early days here. Enron was overshadowed alot by 9/11 along with the other things like the failure of WorldCom and Qwest. It was some serious level financial buggery, especially Enron. Moreso because of the ties Enron has over with the Bush Administration.

Bush Jr was a apparently a long time associate of Kenneth Lay, the guy who made Enron, and Bush Jr along with Dick Cheney got quite a bit of campaign contributions over from Enron along with others within the administration. Without the 9/11 attacks, these issues are gonna become much more significant, and gonna be the dominating talking points over for the 2002 midterms. Which is what could lead to Congress swaying into modest Democrat control.

Him trying to even float the idea of an Iraqi invasion would just be a blatant attempt to shift attention, whch would backfire on him.

As for Howard Dean, he's a dark horse though I think Kerry or possibly Edwards would be a more conventional winner.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

Even in OTL, the Invasion of Iraq and staying there in the aftermath burned W himself as much as it burned the United States and our goodwill with the World Community. It was one the big reason why the OTL election was so close for Bush and why Kerry did so well.

And if the Dems can control/hold onto Congress as well as the lack of good justification/no ongoing war, it a non-started. Again, Bush actually ran on a soft isolationist platform in 2000 no matter how much he wanted to toss Saddam out of power himself as well as people on both sides.

Never mind he still be follow by the 2000 controversies of the last election on.

Even if he tries his hardest, Bush is always going to have a hard time in a world without 9/11 and the War on Terror. He had a hard time in OTL with his second term as it was.

So, would Bush's many flaws have become apparent without his brief "wartime leader" persona? Because I feel the Iraq War it what solidified the idea of Bush being an awful president in the eyes of many. How does he screw up without 9/11 or an invasion of Iraq?

Yup. That was actually something I learned on in my early days here. Enron was overshadowed alot by 9/11 along with the other things like the failure of WorldCom and Qwest. It was some serious level financial buggery, especially Enron. Moreso because of the ties Enron has over with the Bush Administration.

Bush Jr was a apparently a long time associate of Kenneth Lay, the guy who made Enron, and Bush Jr along with Dick Cheney got quite a bit of campaign contributions over from Enron along with others within the administration. Without the 9/11 attacks, these issues are gonna become much more significant, and gonna be the dominating talking points over for the 2002 midterms. Which is what could lead to Congress swaying into modest Democrat control.

Him trying to even float the idea of an Iraqi invasion would just be a blatant attempt to shift attention, whch would backfire on him.

As for Howard Dean, he's a dark horse though I think Kerry or possibly Edwards would be a more conventional winner.

If the economic weakness of the early 2000s is the more prominent issue, could Edwards' brand of populism land him the nomination and even win against Bush in 2004?

Also, if economics were the more prominent issue in the 2000s, then would we declare 2009, when the great recession could potentially start, as the true end of the 20th century, at least if you live in the US?

 

[CountDVB]

So, would Bush's many flaws have become apparent without his brief "wartime leader" persona? Because I feel the Iraq War it what solidified the idea of Bush being an awful president in the eyes of many. How does he screw up without 9/11 or an invasion of Iraq?

Specifcially, it was the backlash once people realized Iraq was a nothing burger and there wasn't much reason for invasion. Bush II already had to deal with the controversy of his close election and not doing much besides the taxcuts prior. His administration's connections to Enron and his likely lackluster approach to dealing with them along with the other stuff will really sink.

Bush being awful came from the massive rise and then fall. Here, I'd reckon he'd be rather below average, but because he loses the House and Senate, it'll limit what he could do. He'd be entering office wth sligtly low expections and decline from there.

If the economic weakness of the early 2000s is the more prominent issue, could Edwards' brand of populism land him the nomination and even win against Bush in 2004?

Also, if economics were the more prominent issue in the 2000s, then would we declare 2009, when the great recession could potentially start, as the true end of the 20th century, at least if you live in the US?

Edwards' positions could get him a fair number of attention I will say though his healthcare approach leaves something to be desired there, least as is there. Meanwhile, I think more people would look at 2001-2009 as a "Decade in Decline". The Great Recession would be less a bubble burst and more the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of the zeitgeist. It'd be viewed as the crescendo to all the corporate and economic fuckery that was starting to become noticeable since Enron, and likely define the early 2010s over in this matter potentially.

Of course, devil is in the details. If say Dean does get elected and manages to do some modest economic reforms at least, it along with the no 9/11 and subsequent invasions would mean things aren't as rough and he could patch things over. If Bush somehow wins reelection in 2004, then there will be a stinging backlash against the GOP and which Democrat in 2008 wins will need to focu big on the economy though if it's someone like Obama or even H. Clinton, it's gonna be setting up for disappointment.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

Specifcially, it was the backlash once people realized Iraq was a nothing burger and there wasn't much reason for invasion. Bush II already had to deal with the controversy of his close election and not doing much besides the taxcuts prior. His administration's connections to Enron and his likely lackluster approach to dealing with them along with the other stuff will really sink.

Bush being awful came from the massive rise and then fall. Here, I'd reckon he'd be rather below average, but because he loses the House and Senate, it'll limit what he could do. He'd be entering office wth sligtly low expections and decline from there.

So, in this TL, Bush II would be "Herbert Hoover from Dukes of Hazzard?"

Edwards' positions could get him a fair number of attention I will say though his healthcare approach leaves something to be desired there, least as is there. Meanwhile, I think more people would look at 2001-2009 as a "Decade in Decline". The Great Recession would be less a bubble burst and more the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of the zeitgeist. It'd be viewed as the crescendo to all the corporate and economic fuckery that was starting to become noticeable since Enron, and likely define the early 2010s over in this matter potentially.

Of course, devil is in the details. If say Dean does get elected and manages to do some modest economic reforms at least, it along with the no 9/11 and subsequent invasions would mean things aren't as rough and he could patch things over. If Bush somehow wins reelection in 2004, then there will be a stinging backlash against the GOP and which Democrat in 2008 wins will need to focu big on the economy though if it's someone like Obama or even H. Clinton, it's gonna be setting up for disappointment.

If corporate malfeasance became more prominent in the TTL 2000s, could Bernie Sanders, or his brand of politics, become more prominent much sooner? Could he have, say, run as an independent in 2008?

 

[CountDVB]

So, in this TL, Bush II would be "Herbert Hoover from Dukes of Hazzard?"

Not Herbert Hoover levels of bad, but probably mediocre. At most, he’d be viewed as someone hamstrung by the people surrounding him.

If corporate malfeasance became more prominent in the TTL 2000s, could Bernie Sanders, or his brand of politics, become more prominent much sooner? Could he have, say, run as an independent in 2008?

Not as an independent, but apparently Sanders seriously considered running in 2012 in the primary and had to be talked about by Obama.

In a timeline where perhaps Kerry or whoever was the Democrat lost in 2008, then the subsequent failure and frustration over the Recession would lead to the void for Sanders to fulfill, especially combined with the Occupy Wall Street movement.

 

[Hadley]

I may have said this earlier in the thread, but going back to music, I could see Country pivoting back to an "outlaw" style again, maybe as a backlash against the glossy pop country.

 

[Historyman 14]

So, in this TL, Bush II would be "Herbert Hoover from Dukes of Hazzard?"

Not Herbert Hoover levels of bad, but probably mediocre. At most, he’d be viewed as someone hamstrung by the people surrounding him.

A Bush II who a one term President on top of his real life Bushism would be the butt of many jokes just like today and be seen as a copy of his dad, right down to losing in the same manner. (No war and general, sluggish economy with the dot com recession, taxes.) Now his legacy as a decadent guy hamstrung by the people surrounding him and questionable policy would be better than his OTL legacy, that is the side of incompetence and a imperialist warhawk if still foolish.

I may have said this earlier in the thread, but going back to music, I could see Country pivoting back to an "outlaw" style again, maybe as a backlash against the glossy pop country.

I mentioned this before, but it be a lot like it was in the 90s, Honky Tonk and Neotradtional with some Rock here and there, upbeat feel good music. Later on you may see alternative country, Red Dirt, and an kinda Outlaw style coming back.