WI: One of the nuclear bombs used against Japan in 1945 malfunctioned?

I've never heard that. Seems a bit hard to believe... why would they hand it to the Soviets?
So the Japanese.... handed the bomb over to a group they were at war with?
It was a rumor in some post-soviet countries, precisely in Baltic republics. Soviets were conducting some successful landing operations in august 1945. There is a guess about reasons and not my guess, but someone else's, but it was most likely a bribe to the USSR not to make a landing on Home islands.
1. The japanese would be handing the bomb over to a group already at war with them, when there's quite frankly no time available for them to do so. Why would they not keep the bomb for themselves and try to figure out the American secret weapon?
2. The US would have *Torn apart* Japan trying to recover or at least verify what happened to any duds.
1. The time was running out and Japanese did know it. Returning the bomb not to the United States but handing it over to the USSR could be revenge against US and for creating a balance of certain hegemones in the future, so that the United States would not be a nuclear monopolist, but have competitors. Interestingly the left wing spies nof Manhattan projet had similar views against US nuclear monopol.

2. Such a search is by no means easy, for example, the hydrogen bomb that went missing in the 1958 Tybee Island Mid-air collision is still undiscovered, and it happened off the coast of the United States itself. Moreover, a state with a nuclear monopoly would not admit that its bombs have something wrong and would rather shut mouth and hope that the bomb would really be somewhere at the bottom a see or swamp.

Personally, I really consider this rumor to be a rumor, but not totally impossible. The most likely target where something like this was possible was probably Niigata.
 
Tall Boy = It's hard to see what could go wrong with the enriched uranium bomb - multiple trigger mechanisms, including timers - plus it's robust enough to survive hitting the ground (so, if all else fails, the impact trigger is going to detonate it). If everything falis, then the impact force alone is going to result in the slug banging down into the end of the barrel, although I'm guessing that's going to be a 'fizzle' rather than proper detotation.

Fat Man = if the altitude triggers all fail, as does the ('guarantee an air burst') timer, then it hits the ground at terminal velocity and it's going to 'splat' with, I'm guessing. some of the shaped charge explosive going off & some not. So there's going to be part melted plutonium shrapnel all over the place .. For sure no=one is going to be digging a nice perfect sphere of plutonium out of a nice shallow hole in the ground ....

NB the idea that the Japanese could some-how 'reverse engineer' a (failed to properly explode) plutonium bomb during ww2 is ASB = they have no source of uranium and no enrichment plants and no reactor (for produccing plutonium). Nor do they have the knowledge (or chemical plant) needed to seperate plutonium from all the 'impurities'. TallBoy might be easier to reverse engineer, but there was only one TallBay because it took years to enrich enough uranium to the required state ...
By 1946 the Japanese were down to the last few suicide planes and their starving population was getting ready to defend against an American invasion with knives tied to the end of broomsticks ... this does not suggest they had the sort of resources needed to build a $multi-billion uranium enrichment plant, let alone multiple reactors and a plutonium seperation plant ...
 

hammo1j

Donor
There was a problem with Fatman spotted just before takeoff to Nagasaki with the cabling to the explosive lenses so a failure is entirely feasible.

The result would be no bomb handed over to the Japanese as there would be a partial explosion without critical mass being reached.
 
Yes, there was a third bomb that would have been ready to go within two weeks of Nagasaki (Aug 19). Let me tell you the story of ... THE DEMON CORE (/shriek of terror).

Edit - reading error (On August 13, the third bomb was scheduled. It was anticipated that it would be ready by August 16 to be dropped on August 19)

The nukes may have made them feel more comfortable about the PR aspects of surrendering, and so sped things up a tiny bit, but one nuke would have worked as well as two for that, so I think the most likely effect of one of the bombs failing would have been that the surrender would have happened at the same time (or within a day or two) and only one city would have been nuked.

NB the idea that the Japanese could some-how 'reverse engineer' a (failed to properly explode) plutonium bomb during ww2 is ASB = they have no source of uranium and no enrichment plants and no reactor (for produccing plutonium). Nor do they have the knowledge (or chemical plant) needed to seperate plutonium from all the 'impurities'. TallBoy might be easier to reverse engineer, but there was only one TallBay because it took years to enrich enough uranium to the required state ...

Hmmmm....
  1. It's difficult to dispute the consensus that if one of the bombs was going to fail, it was Fat Man, the plutonium implosion bomb used at Nagasaki, a more complex and less reliable design than the uranium gun warhead Little Boy represented. So it's reasonable to start with this sequence: Hiroshima is bombed on Aug. 6; the USSR declares war on Aug. 8; Nagasaki is targeted on Aug.9 but the bomb does not detonate.
  2. Against @Protagoras's view, the late James Hornfischer (The Fleet at Flood Tide: America at Total War in the Pacific, 1944–1945) contended that BOTH bombs were necessary to break the war cabinet deadlock, a view shared a bit more equivocally by Richard B. Frank (Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire). It is impossible to say with certainty which view is right, but Hornfischer's is the one with potential for a different war's endgame.
  3. As @Turrosh Mak rightly states, a third bomb (a plutonium bomb) was ready and could have been dropped as soon as August 19. Its nominal target was (tentatively) to have been Niigata, with Kokura as alternate (unless Groves decides to try targeting Nagasaki again). Beyond that, we have a broad understanding of bomb availability, if not quite down to exact dates, thanks to Gen. Leslie Groves' July 30 memo: "In September, we should have three or four bombs. One of these will be made from 235 material and will have a smaller effectiveness, about two-thirds that of the test type, but by November, we should be able to bring this up to full power. There should be either four or three bombs in October, one of the lesser size. In November, there should be at least five bombs and the rate will rise to seven in December and increase decidedly in early 1946. By some time in November, we should have the effectiveness of the 235 implosion type bomb equal to that of the tested plutonium implosion type."

But it strikes me that the OP asks us to consider how each side's decision-making changes if the Nagasaki bomb is a dud:

A) Do the Americans alter their plans after a dud, even setting aside a Japanese refusal to accept surrender terms?
B) How do the Japanese react to a Nagasaki dud?

A) Now, a failed bomb *would* cause some anxious soul-searching in Groves' command, as well as in Washington. Suddenly their ace card looks shakier, not because of fears the Japanese will reverse engineer it (they have neither the expertise nor the time, as @HexWargamer notes, and anyway the AN 219 destruct fuses would have rendered it an ugly mess on impact), but because Japanese realization that the American a-bombs may be very unreliable, which may risk ironically bolstering the hardliners. The bigger, more immediate problem for Groves and Truman is that the next bomb was a plutonium bomb, as were most of the ones in the pipeline. Do they hold off until they can study what happened with Fat Man? Or do they keep trying? After all, they *had* successfully detonated a plutonium bomb already at Trinity. Thus...when Groves meets with Parsons, Purnell, Spaatz, and Lemay for the postmortem, I think they'll likely assume the failure wasn't the bomb itself, but more likely the Archie radar antenna - a fixable problem - and so advise Truman.

My sense of Truman's mind at this point is that he will order more bombs be dropped (along with continuation of Lemay's incendiary bombing campaign) until the Japanese communicate some willingness to talk, and hope the next ones work. If the war drags on into autumn, the one constraint which will manifest itself was Marshall's desire to have some bombs (up to 9, if he could get them) for tactical use at the outstset of the Operation MAJESTIC invasion of Kyushu. It is unclear when that would have become a real debate. I think the eagerness to show Tokyo that Nagasaki was a fluke (assuming Tokyo has figured out what happened at Nagasaki) will keep Marshall at bay until at least October.

B) The greater wild card is the Japanese war cabinet dynamic. We are after all talking about not just a scenario where only one bomb is dropped, but rather where a second bomb is dropped but is a dud, and that matters because that's greater ammunition for Anami's shotlocker against the peace faction. How quickly will the Japanese figure that out? It will take time to identify and recover the bomb remains and figure out what has happened. How long will that take? That depends on the manner in which it fails. If they do so before the August 19 bomb is detonated on Niigata, that might work against the Niigata bombing's effect on the cabinet and Hirohito. A best case scenario is that we just end up with Hirohito's intervention of August 9-10 pushed back to Aug. 20. A slightly worse case might be that the realization of the Nagasaki dud causes a political holding pattern until more bombs are dropped in September, on top of the cumulative losses racking up in Manchuria.

But the worst case scenario would be that it gives enough impetus to a hardliner coup, be it soft or hard, to keep the war going. At which point, we could well be looking at something like The Red's Decisive Darkness timeline (though I am somewhat more skeptical about the possibilities of rapid Soviet advance into the Kurils and Hokkaido).
 
If one of the nukes malfunction then it lands and splinter and contaminates a wide area with radioactive materials. The uranium will be a longer health hazard if it does not explode. Hiroshima or Nagasaki will not be able to be rebuilt.
 
B) The greater wild card is the Japanese war cabinet dynamic. We are after all talking about not just a scenario where only one bomb is dropped, but rather where a second bomb is dropped but is a dud, and that matters because that's greater ammunition for Anami's shotlocker against the peace faction. How quickly will the Japanese figure that out? It will take time to identify and recover the bomb remains and figure out what has happened. How long will that take? That depends on the manner in which it fails. If they do so before the August 19 bomb is detonated on Niigata, that might work against the Niigata bombing's effect on the cabinet and Hirohito. A best case scenario is that we just end up with Hirohito's intervention of August 9-10 pushed back to Aug. 20. A slightly worse case might be that the realization of the Nagasaki dud causes a political holding pattern until more bombs are dropped in September, on top of the cumulative losses racking up in Manchuria.

But the worst case scenario would be that it gives enough impetus to a hardliner coup, be it soft or hard, to keep the war going. At which point, we could well be looking at something like The Red's Decisive Darkness timeline (though I am somewhat more skeptical about the possibilities of rapid Soviet advance into the Kurils and Hokkaido).
The Japanese reaction is the key. According to the timeline laid out in Frank's Downfall, on August 9th while the "Big 6" of the Japanese war cabinet met to discuss the Hiroshima bombing and the Russian DoW, news arrived of the Nagasaki bombing. Even with this news, they STILL split 3 for surrender 3 for continuing the war. The full war cabinet later that day also split with no majority. I suspect (short of obliteration) it was always going to come down to the emperor saying "Enough". The question is whether Hirohito was pushed over the edge by just Hiroshima and Manchuria, or was Nagasaki required.

In our timeline, there has been a lot of hand wringing over whether it was necessary to drop a second atomic bomb. At least in this timeline we will get a definitive answer.
 
If one of the nukes malfunction then it lands and splinter and contaminates a wide area with radioactive materials. The uranium will be a longer health hazard if it does not explode. Hiroshima or Nagasaki will not be able to be rebuilt.

I was thinking the same thing. A dud would end up being a dirty bomb, which is better for civilians in the short term but worse in the long run.
 
On way this could happen is if there is an undetected flaw in the plutonium bomb design which prevents detonation 9 out of 10 times (the Trinity test being the 1). Thus the second and third bombs are duds. I suspect the US would have to stop dropping the bombs until they knew what was going on. That could mean they have to beat Japan the hard way.
 
Tall Boy = It's hard to see what could go wrong with the enriched uranium bomb - multiple trigger mechanisms, including timers - plus it's robust enough to survive hitting the ground (so, if all else fails, the impact trigger is going to detonate it). If everything falis, then the impact force alone is going to result in the slug banging down into the end of the barrel, although I'm guessing that's going to be a 'fizzle' rather than proper detotation.

Fat Man = if the altitude triggers all fail, as does the ('guarantee an air burst') timer, then it hits the ground at terminal velocity and it's going to 'splat' with, I'm guessing. some of the shaped charge explosive going off & some not. So there's going to be part melted plutonium shrapnel all over the place .. For sure no=one is going to be digging a nice perfect sphere of plutonium out of a nice shallow hole in the ground ....

Both the Uranium & Plutonium design used triple redundant triggers. Each had a clock that started on release from the aircraft, a altimeter, and a proximity fuze designed to function at 1000+ feet. Lt Commander Parsons also installed triple electric circuits & primer/detonators for the charges. He simply wasn't going to see these things fail because of one 85 cent switch. When he armed the bombs after take off he & the Master Sgt did a final electrical check, after they had done multiple complete checks on all components on the ground. The guy was obsessive about the devices functioning correctly.
 

hammo1j

Donor
Both the Uranium & Plutonium design used triple redundant triggers. Each had a clock that started on release from the aircraft, a altimeter, and a proximity fuze designed to function at 1000+ feet. Lt Commander Parsons also installed triple electric circuits & primer/detonators for the charges. He simply wasn't going to see these things fail because of one 85 cent switch. When he armed the bombs after take off he & the Master Sgt did a final electrical check, after they had done multiple complete checks on all components on the ground. The guy was obsessive about the devices functioning correctly.
I guess the Barometric fuse would have gone off if the aircraft got shot down.

Again Bock's Car did attract Japanese fighters to scramble while it was waiting for the camera plane to turn up, but its speed and altitude meant they couldn't chase it to Nagasaki
 
If one of the nukes malfunction then it lands and splinter and contaminates a wide area with radioactive materials. The uranium will be a longer health hazard if it does not explode. Hiroshima or Nagasaki will not be able to be rebuilt.

That's quite true - or a least it's a real possibility in the right circumstances - but that won't be an issue that has any importance until the war is well over. The AN-219 fuses were merely powerful enough to wreck the bomb against successful reverse engineering, not to turn it into a mass-area dirty bomb.
 
Both the Uranium & Plutonium design used triple redundant triggers. Each had a clock that started on release from the aircraft, a altimeter, and a proximity fuze designed to function at 1000+ feet. Lt Commander Parsons also installed triple electric circuits & primer/detonators for the charges. He simply wasn't going to see these things fail because of one 85 cent switch. When he armed the bombs after take off he & the Master Sgt did a final electrical check, after they had done multiple complete checks on all components on the ground. The guy was obsessive about the devices functioning correctly.

These are great points (and shame on me for not raising them!).

That's the difficulty with this question. Obviously there was always some theoretical possbility of a bomb not detonating. But given what we know about those first bombs and their safe guards, it's hard to identify an obvious weakness to fulfill the OP's scenario.
 

marathag

Banned
If one of the nukes malfunction then it lands and splinter and contaminates a wide area with radioactive materials. The uranium will be a longer health hazard if it does not explode. Hiroshima or Nagasaki will not be able to be rebuilt.
HEU still isn't that radioactive. It's Half Life is 703,800,000 years.
You're at far more risk from Radon in your basement,just under 4 days

But U-235 is chemically toxic, it's a heavy metal, after all.
Little Boy was the size of a chubby torpedo. A mult-ton torpedo of steel and Tungsten carbide.
It's basic construction of a bunker buster today, but then the Tungsten was used as a Neutron reflector
From 34,000 feet, it will bury deep, if all the timers, radar and barometric fuzes fail
 
the only thing I can think of is a fire on the aircraft destroys the entire electrical circuitry on the device, without triggering one of the initiators. That allows the bomb to to be lost. Some accounts suggest the altimeter fuze was activated on the approach to Japan specifically in case the aircraft was shot down or crashed. The clock would have to manually initiated in such a scenario, and any proximity fuze would not work inside the aircraft.
 
HEU still isn't that radioactive. It's Half Life is 703,800,000 years.
You're at far more risk from Radon in your basement,just under 4 days

But U-235 is chemically toxic, it's a heavy metal, after all.
Little Boy was the size of a chubby torpedo. A mult-ton torpedo of steel and Tungsten carbide.
It's basic construction of a bunker buster today, but then the Tungsten was used as a Neutron reflector
From 34,000 feet, it will bury deep, if all the timers, radar and barometric fuzes fail
& even then the internal components might be ejected in fragments, scattered along the burrow it makes.
 
They may very well see it as divine intervention.
The hardliners were already preparing for the defense of the Home Islands exactly like a death cult. The whole population was expected to be sacrificed. Ergo, any such "divine intervention" could very easily have been the trigger for a coup to remove the "peacenik" faction. A uniformly hardline cabinet (and an Emporer either unwillingly or incapable of vetoing it) seems very likely to have accepted more bombings. At some point then, the question seems to become: "How steadfast is the US continuing the use of atomic bombs where there is seemingly no possibility that further bombings will induce a Japanese surrender?" There's goung to be a political cost at some point-- after 4, 5, 6, 10 working bombs-- in the same sense that Dresden stirred internal debate regarding the morality and efficacy of that particular tactic.
 
At some point then, the question seems to become: "How steadfast is the US continuing the use of atomic bombs where there is seemingly no possibility that further bombings will induce a Japanese surrender?" There's goung to be a political cost at some point-- after 4, 5, 6, 10 working bombs-- in the same sense that Dresden stirred internal debate regarding the morality and efficacy of that particular tactic.
I'm sure that will play in Peoria:
"We are sorry, Mrs. Cunningham. Your son was killed on the Kanto plain because we didn't want the history books to call us murderers."
 
There was TL about this a few years ago, in which the topic was investigated in some detail. IIRC the consensus was that, because there was no backup plan, Japan would become a nuclear superpower. You can check it out for yourself here.
...
Uh, better bring some sedatives when you do. Just saying...
I’ve just read it….and my eyeballs almost melted without needing an A bomb…
 
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