WI: Ogedei Khan, 1186-1244

[Elfwine]

The problem is that burning forests and cities to make pasture doesn't feed the horses in the short term - aka the campaign season.

And I find it rather unbelievable that the Hungarians represented the only chance Europe had to face the Mongols - sure, the European armies would probably not fare much if any better, but they still exist.

Meanwhile, the low countries are not the financial center of Europe at this point (nor are the Italian city-states - in practice, Europe's economy is not such as to have a "financial center" that can be gutted with disaster across the continent).

Besides, doesn't this assume that all the Mongol plans go off without a hitch? That seems unlikely, and I say this with all due respect to Mongol competence - they made mistakes and underestimated things at times, that over the course of conquering Germany and France they wouldn't is unlikely.

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

The problem is that burning forests and cities to make pasture doesn't feed the horses in the short term - aka the campaign season.

And I find it rather unbelievable that the Hungarians represented the only chance Europe had to face the Mongols - sure, the European armies would probably not fare much if any better, but they still exist.

Meanwhile, the low countries are not the financial center of Europe at this point (nor are the Italian city-states - in practice, Europe's economy is not such as to have a "financial center" that can be gutted with disaster across the continent).

Besides, doesn't this assume that all the Mongol plans go off without a hitch? That seems unlikely, and I say this with all due respect to Mongol competence - they made mistakes and underestimated things at times, that over the course of conquering Germany and France they wouldn't is unlikely.

i never said they would conquer i simply said at most successfuly raid, depopulate, plunder and cause major setbacks. Also well for low countries i used Hollande who is a pretty respectable historian but i guess she didnt say stuff accurately. The problem is HRE busy with Pope. France busy with internal troubles and rivaalry with england. German princes at each others throats, Spain too far away. Or should say castille, and aragorn. Byzantium friendly. Bulgaria gone. Well the campaign season what the mongols did is live off the land regardless of what is thier. Plus they would stock up on resources and all from I guess Hungary and Russia and maybe poland and then invade. Although mainting it is tough but given the mongols would even eat horse meat i think they could do it maybe the horses feed of what is in the forests or when they depopulate cities eat lall the food stores and take all the barly and oats to feed their horses.

 

[kasumigenx]

i never said they would conquer i simply said at most successfuly raid, depopulate, plunder and cause major setbacks. Also well for low countries i used Hollande who is a pretty respectable historian but i guess she didnt say stuff accurately. The problem is HRE busy with Pope. France busy with internal troubles and rivaalry with england. German princes at each others throats, Spain too far away. Or should say castille, and aragorn. Byzantium friendly. Bulgaria gone. Well the campaign season what the mongols did is live off the land regardless of what is thier. Plus they would stock up on resources and all from I guess Hungary and Russia and maybe poland and then invade. Although mainting it is tough but given the mongols would even eat horse meat i think they could do it maybe the horses feed of what is in the forests or when they depopulate cities eat lall the food stores and take all the barly and oats to feed their horses.

The Mongols weren't able to take Fortified places(this is the reason why Song was not invaded by the Mongols during the time of Genghis Khan.) in Europe like Western Poland(Silesia and Greater Poland), so I think the key for this is for Poland, Bohemia and Hungary to cooperate and be friendly with the Mongols.

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

The Mongols weren't able to take Fortified places(this is the reason why Song was not invaded by the Mongols during the time of Genghis Khan.) in Europe like Western Poland(Silesia and Greater Poland), so I think the key for this is for Poland, Bohemia and Hungary to cooperate and be friendly with the Mongols.

But after ogedei the mongols handily took over fortified places. Just look at thier conquests of southern china. If ogedai is serious about the invasion he will simply send hundreds of engineers from the east along with siege equipment to the forces of subodei and batu and then the fortified places are screwed. You got to understand genghis is dead, Thus mongol empire is different from genghises just to let you know because it has avai;able far more resources and has learned a lot from its previous conquests. If they sucked at taking fortified areas why were they easily able to conquer the mideast, sweep through china under ogedei, guyuk, and so on and at the same time destroy and lay waste to russia. All the mongols need are the siege engineers form the east to bolster subodeis forces and done they have the equipment nesscasary to sieze castles unless your telling me european castles were far more advanced than thier middle eastern and chinese equivelents.

 

[kasumigenx]

But after ogedei the mongols handily took over fortified places. Just look at thier conquests of southern china. If ogedai is serious about the invasion he will simply send hundreds of engineers from the east along with siege equipment to the forces of subodei and batu and then the fortified places are screwed. You got to understand genghis is dead, Thus mongol empire is different from genghises just to let you know because it has avai;able far more resources and has learned a lot from its previous conquests. If they sucked at taking fortified areas why were they easily able to conquer the mideast, sweep through china under ogedei, guyuk, and so on and at the same time destroy and lay waste to russia. All the mongols need are the siege engineers form the east to bolster subodeis forces and done they have the equipment nesscasary to sieze castles unless your telling me european castles were far more advanced than thier middle eastern and chinese equivelents.

this is what LS Catilina said earlier

That the short story. Now, the complete one is.

"They won major battles (not all as in Olmouc), but unable to really use them to take control of places too develloped and fortified. They managed to transform East Europe in a raiding zone, as other steppe peoples before them, without damaging or changing the social infrastructure.
Then, they knew the position of Khan was avaible for business, and that ruling or at least influencing the one who was ruling would be better than making raids without too much consequences".

"Thus Eastern Europe knew less raids and avoided to look like Russia. Well a little more than today, let's say".

"Western Europe didn't cared too much."

For resume, when they invaded countries without too much fortified places, it was okay. But when they were in ountries with strongholds, fortifications, etc they didn't managed to take control even when winning battles in crushing victory (and it wasn't always the case).

They simply didn't had the manpower for that, while they had for China (coupled with inner issues for China).

But Southern China was conquered on 1270's not on the time of Ogodei Khan, that is the time when the Eastern Mongol Empire became sincized already and became different from the Golden Horde and also the Song Empire was lately badly administrated so the people sided with the Mongols, the Islamic Empires also have their internal problems too.

 

[Elfwine]

Song China was conquered in the 1270s because it had taken the Mongols that long to finish the job.

 

[kasumigenx]

Song China was conquered in the 1270s because it had taken the Mongols that long to finish the job.

And also because the Mongols made a brief alliance with Song China to annihilate the Jin Empire and Mongols took advantage of the Song Dynasty when it was unstable already and annexed it.

 

[RGB]

this is what LS Catilina said earlier

Catalina doesn't seem to have a clear picture of how much more formidable the Eastern opponents of the Mongols were compared to Western Europeans.

Breaking through Sichuan's defenses is more difficult than reaching the Channel, no question about it. Song didn't become vulnerable until that string of fortresses fell.

There was no battle of Olomouc. It's a later historiographic fabrication. The Europeans never won a battle in the field. There were fortresses that held out, of course. But China had fortresses that held out for way longer and still fell in the end. So what happened and why did later Mongols fail in Europe?

Later Mongols came with small forces and no logistical support, because not only was Jochi ulus permanently starved of manpower, but it also spent the entire century fighting the Ilkhans and their allies. All respect due to Hungary getting its act together and organizing great defenses, internal Mongol problems ARE the reason why the 13th c. didn't end worse for the Europeans.

 

[Elfwine]

I suspect that "lack of interest by the Mongols" should be included in there, RGB - the "internal problems" one, I mean.

There never was the kind of all out effort that even Baghdad (as compared to China) got, so the full strength of the Mongol war machine as distinct from a core of Mongols and a lot of Turks (good but not as superbly efficient at what the Mongols did beyond just ride and shoot) never faced Europe.

Speaking as someone who regards the best-model Byzantine army as the best chance of a Western army having anything like the force needed, the performance of the Rus says a lot about how likely any Western European force is to cobble something together - the Rus should know this stuff (organization, archery, nomad tactics), as you've mentioned in some thread.

 

[RGB]

I suspect that "lack of interest by the Mongols" should be included in there, RGB - the "internal problems" one, I mean.

Yes. I think Europe had no use beyond getting extortion money out of them. The Mongols definitely had limitations in their strategic thinking.

Speaking as someone who regards the best-model Byzantine army as the best chance of a Western army having anything like the force needed, the performance of the Rus says a lot about how likely any Western European force is to cobble something together - the Rus should know this stuff (organization, archery, nomad tactics), as you've mentioned in some thread.

Yes, and they got outmaneuvred on their own turf, and defeated both in the field and at siege. Same as the Hungarians, except the Hungarians faced less Mongols further away from home.

I fail to see who would do any better, to be honest. Logistical costs might be the one thing that could stop Subotai, if he didn't have enough resources.

 

[Elfwine]

Yes. I think Europe had no use beyond getting extortion money out of them. The Mongols definitely had limitations in their strategic thinking.

Yeah. Admittedly, Europe (including Russia) - are not really places I'd want to spend a whole lot taking when I have China to gain.

Can't see why the Mongols tried both but not well enough to work out, though.

Yes, and they got outmaneuvred on their own turf, and defeated both in the field and at siege. Same as the Hungarians, except the Hungarians faced less Mongols further away from home.

I fail to see who would do any better, to be honest. Logistical costs might be the one thing that could stop Subotai, if he didn't have enough resources.

I'm not sure either, barring our discussion on a what-if Byzantines. There just isn't any (other) European force that has the tools to take on a steppe army effectively, let alone one lead by the goddamn Subotai (in the sense of the goddamn Batman).

On the other hand, the Hungarians apparently were able to give a fight that worried Batu, so it might be possible to keep the Mongols from winning for three years - just not vs. an all out effort.

Kinda underwhelming when the best you can do is be hard enough to beat that the Mongols are only mostly sure they'll win, though.

 

[cimon]

How many tumens were dedicated to the Mongol occupation of China? What about Russia?

I know nothing about Mongol administrative practices, but that info might give us a clue to how successful they would have been in Europe. Did they use local intermediaries? Did the Khan appoint local governors?

Cheers,
Ganesha

Russia,three tumans for "just in case" while they were operating in Europe.

 

[cimon]

As the great khan, shouldn't Ogedei be able to order more soldiers and siege experts to Europe?

And if he really doesn't want to conquer western Europe, what instead? Egypt? Constantinople? Japan? SE Asia? India?

But thanks for the links, I'll definitely read them!

He could on the third wave,"Wordsworth Reference" in the Biography of Subodai Ba'adur claims that Subodai invaded Eastern Europe with 120000
men(originally-150000 for Europe and Russia-minus three tuman for southern Russia) it seems that they were more than enough.Siege experts are in Subodai's army in abundance,but I have already explained what military orthodoxy dictates:why waste time in unecessary sieges? anyway in the wake of the Mongol advance there were three cities resisting:Vienna,Gran and Alba Julia.None could stop the Mongols reaching their objectives in the estimated time and would surely fall later...and where would they water and feed their horses?
In the plains of Poland,Hungary and nowdays Romania.Next step Germany and Italy...

 

[MadWeaver]

Well, I guess, if the numbers cimon have posted are correct then what only saved Europe in 1241 was a single death..
Almost the same thing happened 20 years later, when death of Mongke in 1259 saved the islamic world from mongol conquest..

 

[RGB]

Well, I guess, if the numbers cimon posted are correct then what only saved Europe in 1241 was a single death..
Almost the same thing happened 20 years later, when death of Mongke in 1259 saved the islamic world from mongol conquest..

Subotai had about two armies of two tumen+auxillaries each to take on both Hungary and Poland. That's not a lot. I wonder where the rest of his men were at the time.

 

[MadWeaver]

Subotai had about two armies of two tumen+auxillaries each to take on both Hungary and Poland. That's not a lot.

I would say its actually quite a lot, if you consider extra quality of Mongol troops and Subetei, who in 50 years of his military career haven't lost a single battle and haven't ever violated 'Yassa', would be able to do a lot, probably. I'm not sure about this but from what I've heard, armies defeated in Liegnitz and Mohi were probably best of what Europe had to offer at the time. They also included some Templars, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Order Knights. However, they probably lacked a good lead.

 

[Elfwine]

I would say its actually quite a lot, if you consider extra quality of Mongol troops and Subetei, who in 50 years of his military career haven't lost a single battle and haven't ever violated 'Yassa', would be able to do a lot, probably. I'm not sure about this but from what I've heard, armies defeated in Liegnitz and Mohi were probably best of what Europe had to offer at the time. They also included some Templars, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Order Knights. However, they probably lacked a good lead.

Liegnitz was a pretty scratched together force from my reading, despite the Order knights.

Not sure what was so special about the Hungarian army at Mohi.

 

[MadWeaver]

Liegnitz was a pretty scratched together force from my reading, despite the Order knights.

Sorry, I don't understand the meaning of this. You mean it was poor/weak?

As for the Mohi army, it also contained Templar Knights, otherwise it was probably standard army. Like I said I'm not sure about these, but I'm also not aware of any other better army in Europe available at the time.

Only thing I can possibly think of at the moment are the Swiss. Clash of Mongol army versus the Swiss confederation forces - the famous pikemen armies would be pretty interesting! Unfortunately, Swiss confederation started in 1291, I wonder if they had those special pikemen before.

 

[Elfwine]

Sorry, I don't understand the meaning of this. You mean it was poor/weak?

As for the Mohi army, it also contained Templar Knights, otherwise it was probably standard army. Like I said I'm not sure about these, but I'm also not aware of any other better army in Europe available at the time.

Only thing I can possibly think of at the moment are the Swiss. Clash of Mongol army versus the Swiss confederation forces - the famous pikemen armies would be pretty interesting! Unfortunately, Swiss confederation started in 1291, I wonder if they had those special pikemen before.

Yeah. Henry's force had neither quantity or quality even by feudal army standards, the knights aside.

I'm not sure if it'd necessarily be better, but I don't think that means that the Hungarians are the best available - just that everyone is equally ill equipped.

Horse archers vs. pikemen. That's going to be about as painfully one sided as any battle the Mongols ever won.

 

[MadWeaver]

Yeah. Henry's force had neither quantity or quality even by feudal army standards, the knights aside.

I'm not sure if it'd necessarily be better, but I don't think that means that the Hungarians are the best available - just that everyone is equally ill equipped.

Horse archers vs. pikemen. That's going to be about as painfully one sided as any battle the Mongols ever won.

Is there any record about composition of Henry's army, except mentioning the knights? I can only guess it was numerously superior to the Mongol army (which Mongols didn't perceive as a problem indeed ) , but not professionally trained and composed mainly of peasants or something like that

Maybe I'm too influenced by Medieval Total War but the Mongols too used infantry and also heavy cavalry, didn't they? Also, Swiss had great crossbowmen. I guess with equal numbers, it could have been quite a battle