WI: Ogedei Khan, 1186-1244

Very interesting , I must say. Although there are some things I would disagree with, it seems pretty accurate.
What's your source? Do you know Lev Gumilev's "Searches for an Imaginary Kingdom"? It's from 1970..
And, what's your opinion of the topic then?

I have already sited enough sources,I realize that 'Erick Mauraise' is highly specialized and it is offered in military libraries(Usually was found in France
and of course in French) Wordsworth Reference Military biographies is easily accessible and the article by....Eric Hidlinger "The Mongol Invasion of Europe"is in the web. and of course my notes...
I am interested in what you disagree! I am open to discussion on that,and,I will be happy toread your argument.
 
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As the great khan, shouldn't Ogedei be able to order more soldiers and siege experts to Europe?

And if he really doesn't want to conquer western Europe, what instead? Egypt? Constantinople? Japan? SE Asia? India?

But thanks for the links, I'll definitely read them!
 
What would be a good scenario for Mongols is that Poland and most other East European gives tribute and coordinate with the Mongols instead of continue fighting and later made as a vassal which makes the Mongols strong in Europe then Guyuk establishes a Khanate in Eastern Europe, you could have a Mongol puppet as the ruler of the HRE.

A Mongol puppet? for HRE? The mongols were planning to conquer HRE!any way as a scenario is great,although I think that the Mongol tumans would water their horses in Western Europe which they would subjugate completely.
 
Who is Eric of Silesia? I've never heard of any Eric of Silesia in this period - nor does searching for the name reveal any mention online.
 
I have already sited enough sources,I realize that 'Erick Mauraise' is highly specialized and it is offered in military libraries(Usually was found in France
and of course in French) Wordsworth Reference Military biographies is easily accessible and the article by....Eric Hdlinger "The Mongol Invasion of Europe"is in the web. and of course my notes...
I am interested in what you disagree! I am open to discussion on that,and,I will be happy toread your argument.

I will try to find one book when I arrive home to check some dates and numbers, so my arguments would have a certain real base, however, I believe it will not differ too much from what I have posted here so far. We will see :)

Maybe we could discuss some other topics as well, perhaps through the PMs, what do you think?
 
How many tumens were dedicated to the Mongol occupation of China? What about Russia?

I know nothing about Mongol administrative practices, but that info might give us a clue to how successful they would have been in Europe. Did they use local intermediaries? Did the Khan appoint local governors?

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
Maybe they mean Heinrich / Henry / Henrik?
Precisely! someone must remind Elfwine that there are other languages apart from English;for Elfwine we would call him Henry the Pious although in Silesia he could not have been known under that name...
 
Precisely! someone must remind Elfwine that there are other languages apart from English;for Elfwine we would call him Henry the Pious although in Silesia could not have been known under that name...

Someone must remind Cimon that his arrogance and mistakes are not a substitute for knowledge. I do know that there are other languages than English, do you know that "Eric" is not the same as "Henrik" (the two are not merely spelled differently but have different meanings except for the -ric ending)?

And the Polish duke did not command thirty thousand Germans.
 
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I will try to find one book when I arrive home to check some dates and numbers, so my arguments would have a certain real base, however, I believe it will not differ too much from what I have posted here so far. We will see :)

Maybe we could discuss some other topics as well, perhaps through the PMs, what do you think?
Certainly,so long as I know something about it!
 
Again :D , do you know Lev Gumilev's "Searches for an Imaginary Kingdom"? Really good book, I think.

Also, do you think long-lasting Mongol presence in central/western Europe would be possible (let's say at least as long as Ilkhanate in Persia) ?
What areas do you think they would conquer if they did not have to return?

Thanks :)
I apologise for not replying earlier,I am afraid I don't know the book by Lev Gumilev,what does it entail?

In Subodai's planning the conquest would have been terminated on the Channel;and they would stay.europe would have had its first long peace
and let's not forget the Mongols were tolerand regarding the church and they believed in certain measure of self goverment in occupied areas.
Practically I believe that HRE and Itally would come under direct occupation whereas France and the low countries would undertake to grow their quota of Mongol ponies apart from their tribute.
Eastern Europe would be part of their conquests North of the Danube.Probably certain states like Byzantium(they had good relations...) would finally pay some sort of tribute,but in such a case if someone invaded Byzantine territory ie Anatolia,would be very sorry indeed!I firmly believe that we would never again hear about Turks(Seljuks or Ottomans...)
 
Someone must remind Cimon that his arrogance and mistakes are not a substitute for knowledge. I do know that there are other languages than English, do you know that "Eric" is not the same as "Henrik" (the two are not merely spelled differently but have different meanings except for the -ric ending)?

And the Polish duke did not command thirty thousand Germans.
What mistakes are those Elfwine? don't make me lough please.Next time if you see someone scratching his head please don't tell him that he is scratching it the wrong way!
Have you anything constructive to add to the conversation? if yes,please do so;otherwise don't add to the noise...
 
Ok, so I came home and checked the book just to find out it does NOT give ANY specific numbers regarding mongol invasion of europe.. :/ :D

I'm sorry to mislead you guys, I've probably mixed some thing I thought I have seen in book with some Wikipedia numbers. Anyways, the book's damn good, I'm the one who failed :D
 
What mistakes are those Elfwine? don't make me lough please.Next time if you see someone scratching his head please don't tell him that he is scratching it the wrong way!
Have you anything constructive to add to the conversation? if yes,please do so;otherwise don't add to the noise...

As stated, Eric=/=Henryk or anything like it, nor did the Duke of Silesia command thirty thousand Germans.

Those are rather significant errors in a discussion of what the Mongols were doing, but apparently you prefer blustering and criticizing others to acknowledging mistakes.

And there's what Bee pointed out on Batu, as well.

I would think providing accurate information is being constructive.

I don't know why you have a problem with me, but to post things like "don't make me lough please.Next time if you see someone scratching his head please don't tell him that he is scratching it the wrong way!" and "Someone should tell (person) that there are languages other than English" makes you look ridiculous - and hardly contributes anything constructive to the thread.
 
I would like to add that I have been reading the book What if in History and in it one of it is about Mongol invasion of Europe by Cecilia Hollande. She basically states that the mongols could use Hungary as an effective base due to the grassland and plains found their. Basically by the defeat of the Hungarians Europe had no real army to speak of to oppose the mongols. As said above.

Likewise the german states hated each other and tried destroying each other. Most likely to circumvent the castle problem Subodei would exploit this volatile situation in Germany by using divide and conquer siding with one lord against another lord and then taking over this lords lands. Except he would do it on a wide scale and im pretty sure many of the German lords at least near the polish-hungarian borders would immediately surrender to the mongols if they truly invaded.
Otherwise with the large enough force as assembled by mongols split into the four armies cimon mentioned Poland would be mopped.

If no pasteur were to be found here is the scary part the mongols would "convert" the area into pasteurs for their horses like they did in Northern CHina. This basically means the forests would be most likely burned down the cities completely razed thus making it possible for the mongols to Pasteurize the area if they really needed to which is :eek:.

You must understand also how mongol intelligence were experts as such according to holande they would strike after invading from the danube into vienna the low countries overuning Antwerp, Ghent, Brughes to seek Pasteur for thier horses. They would do this by going through northern German(Actual Plans) through Liegnitz and onto Antwerp and so forth. Meanwhile another army would advance from Vienna. WIth the loss of the low countries the financial center of Europe would be wiped out in effect. Likewise the rhine delta would become a swamp if the mongols depopulated it most likely would happen.

As such the pasteur problem pointed out really does not hold true because if the mongols really wanted to they could force pasteurize parts of europe to feed their horses by Pasteurizing it.

Cimom otherwise explained the stuff well.

Now holding all this ASB. Basically once Ogedei dies and maybe batu the civil wars will make it impossible for the mongols to control this territory leading to a massive loss of it. It ould also lead maybe to a nestorian christian Khanate centered in Hungary if in order to reconcile with Guyuk Batu gave him the lands in Hungary and Poland. . But that is it. THe most the mongols could hold would be poland, Hungary, and maybe croatia but they could successfully invade Europe up to Paris holding it simply not possible due to the massive populations that inhabit these areas but you can expect massive depopulation in parts of europe especially Germany due to its forests and cities. Plus about castle warfare mongols need not take castles why if they sieze the farmland and the cities the castles surrounded will have no way to get supplies and surrender on thier own.

Edit nevermind I think Guyuk would have become Great Khanso someone else might rule that area as a nestorian christian khan.
 
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