WI: No Pacific War - How Long Does the Japanese Empire Last?

Let's say that despite the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and French Indochina the United States for some reason does not employee the oil embargo which led to the start of the Pacific War. The Philippines were finally given their independence from America in the 1920s after a stronger referendum and are no longer a territory of the United States, but a free republic. Then let's say Japan is able to encapsulate the whole of eastern China, the free Philippines, and is able to secure the Dutch East Indies. Having obtained most of the resources it needs to form colonies the Japanese do not attack the British Empire or the United States. How much longer will Japan last as a power in the region?
 
Invading Vietnam directly threatened Malaya and Burma, which Britain cannot ignore. IOTL this action prompted Britain to reopen the Burma Road. It's likely the Philippines will have a defense pact with the US, with significant US bases in Luzon.

The supply lines to/from the Dutch East Indies will be extremely vulnerable to British and US. The Netherlands was also firmly in the western camp. Attacking it meant war. Though if Hitler had installed a Vichy-style Dutch puppet government, Japan might seize the East Indies in a replay of French Indochina.
 

katchen

Banned
Let's say that Japan takes over Indochina, the Dutch East Indies and Gritish Malaya, Sarawak, Brunei and Solomon Island and maybe the New Hebrides, Fiji, New Caledonia, Tonga and French Oceania in 1940 prior to and during the Election Campaign, when the US is effectively paralyzed from responding to any outside situation that is not a clear and resent danger to the United States. No oil embargo. Thus, no Pearl Harbor. Can Roosevelt or Wilkie justify an attack on a Japanese Empire that was a fait accompli? I doubt it.
 
Let's say that Japan takes over Indochina, the Dutch East Indies and Gritish Malaya, Sarawak, Brunei and Solomon Island and maybe the New Hebrides, Fiji, New Caledonia, Tonga and French Oceania in 1940 prior to and during the Election Campaign, when the US is effectively paralyzed from responding to any outside situation that is not a clear and resent danger to the United States. No oil embargo. Thus, no Pearl Harbor. Can Roosevelt or Wilkie justify an attack on a Japanese Empire that was a fait accompli? I doubt it.

But can that be done without somehow affecting the Philippines (with which the US likely has a defense pact)? And wouldn't Guam, Hawaii, and American Samoa be threatened by such a quick succession of conquests? If US territory itself is being threatened, both candidates will promise tougher responses to Japanese aggression.

And that's ignoring the question whether Japan is even capable of such a rapid expansion. The OTL conquest of Malaya was borderline ASB as it was.
 
Let's say that despite the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and French Indochina the United States for some reason does not employee the oil embargo which led to the start of the Pacific War.

This is about as plausible as it gets. Even in this timeline, Imperial Japan would be seen as a major threat, and both the US and Britain would be holding an antagonistic stance vis-a-vis Imperial Japan, just looking for a reason to put the Japanese back in place.

If the Anglo-Japanese Alliance and/or Japanese-British Relations remained 'warm' and cordial during the interbellum, then possibly this antagonistic stance may be less between Britain and Japan, but not that much if the Japanese have occupied Indochina to help in their war against China.

Plus this timeline still presumes a war in Europe.


In such a scenario, my opinion is that Imperial Japan would be ultimately 'successful' in China, so long as we determine what is meant by that. Essentially without the support of the Allies, or Pacific War to distract the Japanese, the Imperial Japanese Army would have been able to maintain control of the vast majority of the East and South Chinese coastline. Even if the interior was out of their logistics capability.

The puppet government that the Japanese used while fairly unsuccessful in our timeline due to troop shortages to back it up would be a lot stronger. In some regions around Nanking, Shanghai and Northern China we might expect this puppet regime to do fairly well.

The interior would be a battlefront for years to come. Kai-shek, may not be likely to try and engage the Japanese head on due to the fact his army is fairly weak. Yet in this timeline we have to presume the British aren't coming to aid him. On the otherhand Mao will likely gain Soviet support during mid 1940s and almost certainly in the late 1940s as Stalin turns his eye East.

Aid reinforcing the Communists, will likely erode the Chinese Nationalist base to continue to prosecute a war against Japan under Kai-shek. As Mao takes centre stage the resistance movement moves to him.

With Soviet equipment the power struggle for the remains of China likely go to the Communists, at which point the Japanese success in the war in China is now of concern to the west (only if it has been allowed to go on this long).

While in our timeline the Manchurian front was almost stripped bare, in this timeline it won't be. Stalin was a cautious man, and is unlikely even with the battle success of the Red Army to prosecute a war in Manchuria to help Mao. Rather he will just back Mao.

In such a case, China becomes our timeline Korea.

The Japanese dynamic will not like Britain or the US interfering with what it will claim is its 'co-prosperity sphere'. However being pragmatic, it is likely that British and US aid will enter China on the side of 'the Allies'. At which point a form of 'eastern build up' will likely take place, as the Soviet Union makes moves to 'annex' the western remains of China as part of the Union. But leaving it under the semi-autonomous rule of Mao and other leaders.

This would guarantee that the Allies cannot 'declare war' on the rest of China without dragging the Soviet Union into conflict, Stalin would likely do this under the grounds of if he losses China, then the Soviet Union is boxed in on all fronts.

Thus the front becomes an 'armistice' that divides China.


Assuming the Cold War never goes hot, then this may likely be the state of affairs up until if/when the Soviet Union collapses, at which point there will be the 'Chinese question'.



East China, under this timeline would likely be governed by its own 'New Republic of China' government, which would be considered a Japanese puppet regime, due to IJA occupation of the country, yet this may only mirror similar events that occurred in Warsaw Pact nations during the Cold War.

The 'Imperial Japanese Empire' would be less of an Empire, and more of Japan-Korea, plus China and Manchuria as aligned states within its sphere of influence.

Korea may or may not get its 'independence' in this timeline sometime during the early Cold War. Similarly, Indochina, may likely fragment, with the Northern part joining the 'New Republic of China', while the western, southern and coastal regions Balkanise under civil/ethic tensions.

Japan will more than likely just let this happen, Indochina was never that strategic to Japan outside of Saigon (as it was then called), and even then not majorly.


The 'Japanese militarists' more than likely start to have their power base eroded sometime around the British/US involvement in China, since Japan would need a more 'civilian government' to be able to do with the change in geopolitics. The civilian nationalists would take priority over the militarist faction, although like South Korea/Britain, the state may remain heavily armed throughout the Cold War period, and even afterwards.




The Philippines were finally given their independence from America in the 1920s after a stronger referendum and are no longer a territory of the United States, but a free republic. Then let's say Japan is able to encapsulate the whole of eastern China, the free Philippines, and is able to secure the Dutch East Indies. Having obtained most of the resources it needs to form colonies the Japanese do not attack the British Empire or the United States. How much longer will Japan last as a power in the region?

^ This is total ASB without a Pacific War, whatever way you cut it. Since much of the reason to attack the DEI came from the US Embargo, and pre-war alignments of powers. Similarly, the Philippines are always going to be protected by the US against Imperial Japanese aggression, and no independent country is going to 'vote itself under' another nations auspice.

The Philippines in this timeline, might join the Allies, and so to, the DEI, thus securing the Pacific against Communism. But this would likely be ties with the US as much as Japan.
 
Let's say that Japan takes over Indochina, the Dutch East Indies and Gritish Malaya, Sarawak, Brunei and Solomon Island and maybe the New Hebrides, Fiji, New Caledonia, Tonga and French Oceania in 1940 prior to and during the Election Campaign, when the US is effectively paralyzed from responding to any outside situation that is not a clear and resent danger to the United States. No oil embargo. Thus, no Pearl Harbor. Can Roosevelt or Wilkie justify an attack on a Japanese Empire that was a fait accompli? I doubt it.

How would the election season leave the US "effectively paralyzed"? After France collapsed in the summer of 1940 the US Congress passed the 'War powers Acts' called up all its reserves and national Guard to active service, reinforced the nuetrality & submarine exclusion zone in the Atlantic, accelerated dispatch of reinforcements to locations outside the continental US, including the Phillipines, increased shipments of material to Britain & its Allies. A emergency budget allocation increased the military budget some tenfold. All that before the end of 1940.

The speed with which the war powers acts were passed and mobilization authorized shows there was no 'election paralysis'.
 
Let's say that despite the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and French Indochina the United States for some reason does not employee the oil embargo which led to the start of the Pacific War. The Philippines were finally given their independence from America in the 1920s after a stronger referendum and are no longer a territory of the United States, but a free republic. Then let's say Japan is able to encapsulate the whole of eastern China, the free Philippines, and is able to secure the Dutch East Indies. Having obtained most of the resources it needs to form colonies the Japanese do not attack the British Empire or the United States. How much longer will Japan last as a power in the region?

1945, which is the year Stalin's victorious Red Army will pile-drive the Japanese empire in Asia into the Pacific Ocean.
 
The interior would be a battlefront for years to come. Kai-shek, may not be likely to try and engage the Japanese head on due to the fact his army is fairly weak. Yet in this timeline we have to presume the British aren't coming to aid him. On the otherhand Mao will likely gain Soviet support during mid 1940s and almost certainly in the late 1940s as Stalin turns his eye East.

Aid reinforcing the Communists, will likely erode the Chinese Nationalist base to continue to prosecute a war against Japan under Kai-shek. As Mao takes centre stage the resistance movement moves to him.

I don't agree.
Soviets wanted to stay KMT strong so they can distract Japanese from Soviets. In OTL by Soviet pressure KMT and CCP made truce. Soviets supplied both CCP and KMT.
 
I don't agree.
Soviets wanted to stay KMT strong so they can distract Japanese from Soviets. In OTL by Soviet pressure KMT and CCP made truce. Soviets supplied both CCP and KMT.

Did I say anything to the contra?


The united front didn't really work/last and certainly won't in the face of a stronger Japanese pressure in China, while it might reduce the amount of political rivalry, the point will be that if the Soviets are the one giving the most aid to china, it erodes the Nationalists base, compared to the Communists, as the timeline unfolds, this would later mean that west china may ultimately end up in the soviet sphere of influence. That is all.
 

Asami

Banned
Provided the USSR doesn't pummel them pre-emptively,

I can see the Japanese Empire winning semi-victory over China, establishing a form of hegemony while the CCP and KMT lick their wounds in the interior -- I can see a reluctant unification between the Communists and Nationalists in the late 1940's, that eventually leads to a unified faction against Japan.

During the Cold War, I can see the Japanese Empire joining with the United States and the West to combat communism. Tensions will flare up in China, but will amount to nil -- Japan will keep a tight lid on dissent in some parts of the empire, but I can see Indochina going fuck all ways like OTL, with Japanese South Vietnam fighting Commie North Vietnam, with Thai help, of course.

When the USSR falls, the Japanese might loosen the leash a bit, I can see the Republic of China-Nanjing, and the Republic of China coming to some favourable deal of unification, much like Germany, with Japan maintaining permanent control of some parts of China by treaty (like Russia in East Prussia?)

By modern day, we'll see Japan's empire being limited to the Pacific Islands, Korea and Japan (and Taiwan), with the rest of the empire being decentralized , or just allies.

The only puppet state I can see being maintained over time is Manchukuo, which will certainly gain it's own national identity and refuse to join China.
 
Perhaps if the Japanese Empire refused to sign the Tripartite Pact and then also managed to make a favorable peace in China? Otherwise that I can see the Pacific Theater is happening, if not as part of World War Two then maybe down the road somewhere as a separate conflagration.

That's actually quite the interesting idea, now that I think about it, a separate Japanese-American War in the Pacific without any goings-on in Europe to draw America's resources and attention away from things. Could be very interesting, though I'm not sure exactly when it would happen or how it would not happen in World War Two.
 
Perhaps if the Japanese Empire refused to sign the Tripartite Pact and then also managed to make a favorable peace in China? ....

Some sort of peace with China? As a hypothetical perhaps the Zaibatsu and other leaders become disillusioned with the more fanatical of the Imperialists. Maybe the war in China goes badly at some point before 1941 leading to a few key leaders 'retiring'? Even if there is no true peace treaty by 1941 at least a cease fire and negotiations would alter the course of events radically.

This leave the US expending much less in the Pacific in 1941 to establsih the defense there, and tho the US may enter the war in Europe a few months later it would enter with a much stronger intial forces & effort. The lack of the 1942 emergency in the Pacific allows a much better focus and application of strength for 1942 and beyond.
 
Let's say that despite the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and French Indochina the United States for some reason does not employee the oil embargo which led to the start of the Pacific War.

Expansionist, aggressive Japan cannot avoid war with the U.S.

However, Japan might not be quite so aggressive. For instance:

Mussolini remains neutral. This allows Britain to defend Malaya in strength.

With no German ground combat anywhere after France, Stalin anticipates BARBAROSSA, which comes up way, way short of winning. Hitler has an "accident", the Army chops the Nazis, and makes peace with Britain and then the USSR in late 1941.

Japan flinches at attacking Malaya with Britain not distracted, and the U.S. also ready to come in full force. The war in China has to be given up. The madder militarists are purged, and Japan pulls back to Manchuria.

Now the question is: How long does Japan keep Korea, Taiwan, Karafuto, the Kuriles, and Micronesia as possessions? How long does Japan control Manchuria as a satellite?
 
Everybody's getting ahead of themselves. I'm convinced that attrition in China, even with the total disregard to collateral damage the Japanese Army had, would eventually win out. It might end up being a 10,000 day war, but it won't end well.
 
Everybody's getting ahead of themselves. I'm convinced that attrition in China, even with the total disregard to collateral damage the Japanese Army had, would eventually win out. It might end up being a 10,000 day war, but it won't end well.

No they aren't.

A 10,00day war would take us up to 1964, into the middle of the Cold War era, the Soviets and Americans will have had something to say about this long before then.

Historically, the Japanese Army preaty much outclassed anything the native Chinese could throw at them. The IJA had artillery, a limited number of tanks and armoured vehicles that the Chinese didn't have any real weaponry to take out. The Flying Tigers and ROCAF were out matched, outgunned, and out experienced, and at one point were brought down to just 4 aircraft. Meanwhile Japanese bombers rained supreme throughout nearly all the conflict until the fuel shortages at the end of the war, and redeployments had them move to the pacific or stay grounded.

However, the Japanese Army never had enough men to fully garrison the rural areas between the chinese towns and cities. This was mostly down to the fact that the civilian population wa many many many times larger than the Japanese forces, and the infrastruture outside of the towns, cities and rail lines meant that any 'countryside operations' took a long time, and were fairly vunerable to rebels.

Hence the Japanese commanders on the ground tended not to bother, and just fortify those cities and bases they held and used caverly and motorised units to 'police' the rest of the country.

The Japanese advange into the Chinese interior was stopped due to a myriad of reasons, a large one being the Japanese General Command at one point argued 'everything of worth in China had been already taken, why go futher into the hills?' or words to that effect. Other reasons were unsercue logistics, partisan activity, an unruly populace created by Japanese attitudes to the Chinese, and the fact that army and airforce assets were being stripped for the war in the pacific. From 1943 onwards a lack of rolling stock was also a problem since in the early years chinese partisans had blown up trains that were never replaced. The irony being that they were built, just never moved south and stayed in northern china or Japan.

I digress, in many ways the Chinese were beating by the Japanese in WW2, just the Chinese refused to accept it, and the Japanese couldn't really go any futher than they did. The Pacific War fundementally caused the Japanese to have to retreat from gains made in China and and Allied/Soviet support to the Chinese/Manchuria is what finally pushed them back in the the final months and days of the conflict.
 
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