WI:Minoan Civilization Survives into this day?
- Thread starter Phaeton
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Yess...
But most of the references I found are in Norwegian. this article appears to summarize it:
http://www.aftenposten.no/kul_und/article257199.ece
EDIT: On futher reading, the man theories appears very unpopular with the established runologists. Although perhaps not surprising. I haven't seen the find debunked though.
But most of the references I found are in Norwegian. this article appears to summarize it:
http://www.aftenposten.no/kul_und/article257199.ece
EDIT: On futher reading, the man theories appears very unpopular with the established runologists. Although perhaps not surprising. I haven't seen the find debunked though.
To Phaeton
I have to ask you about your sources concerning Minoan military
AFAIK nobody managed to read tablets written in Linear A yet. In the text you're quoting there are Greek names (Telemachus, Agamemnon) so I have to assume it was written in Linear B, in archaic Greek (using Minoan signs). But Minoans were not Greeks, most probably they were not even Indo-Europeans. That means, that at least the part about chariots is Mycenian, not Minoan.
It is quite possible, that Minoans fought in similar way the Mycenians did, but I have my doubts. Crete's strength was rather navy, not army, and on a ship there is no place for chariots. Even in raids against enemy's coast there is no place for a chariot, because it's difficult in transport (with horses!) and takes a lot of place that could be used for the spoils.
As far as infantry goes, I presume it was similar to Mycenian, but better prepared to boarding operations - more marines, than heavy infantry.
I have to ask you about your sources concerning Minoan military
AFAIK nobody managed to read tablets written in Linear A yet. In the text you're quoting there are Greek names (Telemachus, Agamemnon) so I have to assume it was written in Linear B, in archaic Greek (using Minoan signs). But Minoans were not Greeks, most probably they were not even Indo-Europeans. That means, that at least the part about chariots is Mycenian, not Minoan.
It is quite possible, that Minoans fought in similar way the Mycenians did, but I have my doubts. Crete's strength was rather navy, not army, and on a ship there is no place for chariots. Even in raids against enemy's coast there is no place for a chariot, because it's difficult in transport (with horses!) and takes a lot of place that could be used for the spoils.
As far as infantry goes, I presume it was similar to Mycenian, but better prepared to boarding operations - more marines, than heavy infantry.
Is it my failling memory, or the Cretians where postulated to be the Sea peoples, or one of them (perhaps along the like of peoples from modern Israel, Lebanon and Syria)?
Umbral, it's been only 7 months. Much older threads have been resurrected. I don't think I ever read this. Looks interesting. Very intriguing that runes may be derived from Minoan script.
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for bumping.
I wonder if shortage of timber might be a problem for a large Cretan navy. It's a big island, but much of it is dry, mountainous and rocky - you can build fishing/trading fleets, but could you supply a navy on a war-footing (problem with initial supply and maintaining it)?
You'd also need a cultural shift: the Minoans, by all accounts, relied on economic rather than military power. They'd have to undergo a sea-change (har-har): maybe because of skirmishes with Cyclades, or organised pirate navies?
I wonder if shortage of timber might be a problem for a large Cretan navy. It's a big island, but much of it is dry, mountainous and rocky - you can build fishing/trading fleets, but could you supply a navy on a war-footing (problem with initial supply and maintaining it)?
You'd also need a cultural shift: the Minoans, by all accounts, relied on economic rather than military power. They'd have to undergo a sea-change (har-har): maybe because of skirmishes with Cyclades, or organised pirate navies?
Np. I wonder if the Minoan Crete had the same flora? There were climate differences and the soil had not yet been subjected to the massive saltwater-and-pumice treatment Thera meted out.
By all accounts it supported a large population. Perhaps it had better soil and more trees. It would not have been the first area to be deforested by man.
I also wonder if they did not have a strong navy? I just cannot see how an island that rich, with no land defenses (or arms) could survive in the mediterranean of 1600 BC without one?
I think it would be nearly impossible for the Minoan culture to survive untill today, like the thread premise. An island in the middle of the eastern mediterranean just doesn't have the location to survive for that long.
But I could see linguistic and cultural continuity.
If the Minoan survived, the early greeks would be pretty crippled. If they even get established in Greece, it would take a real decline of the Minoans to get any kind of sea power or settlements on the islands of the Aegan sea.
Without the Greeks, the Romans, if not butterflied away entirely for lack of greek colonies on the italian peninsula, become far more etruscan. More likely we see an etruscan peninsula.
The rise of Phoenicia would be impeded, if not crippled. I could see the two nations struggling over the seas. Carthage likly never gains its empire, even discounting butterflies.
By all accounts it supported a large population. Perhaps it had better soil and more trees. It would not have been the first area to be deforested by man.
I also wonder if they did not have a strong navy? I just cannot see how an island that rich, with no land defenses (or arms) could survive in the mediterranean of 1600 BC without one?
I think it would be nearly impossible for the Minoan culture to survive untill today, like the thread premise. An island in the middle of the eastern mediterranean just doesn't have the location to survive for that long.
But I could see linguistic and cultural continuity.
If the Minoan survived, the early greeks would be pretty crippled. If they even get established in Greece, it would take a real decline of the Minoans to get any kind of sea power or settlements on the islands of the Aegan sea.
Without the Greeks, the Romans, if not butterflied away entirely for lack of greek colonies on the italian peninsula, become far more etruscan. More likely we see an etruscan peninsula.
The rise of Phoenicia would be impeded, if not crippled. I could see the two nations struggling over the seas. Carthage likly never gains its empire, even discounting butterflies.
Heh..oh by the way.
My first notion on hearing about the Minoan - runic connection, long before finding this board was to wonder if groups of Minoan traders retreated back to friendly shores in Norway, when the Thera explosion and Greek invaders exterminated their homeland.
I supposed it likly that there were some occasional liasons, and they may have had kin there.
There was also a period of cultural change in Norway-Sweden at what I supposed might be this time.
The notion of Minoans finding refuge in Norway, and mixing with the natives while bootstrapping the locals with knowledge of such things as writing, sailing, metallurgy and egalitarianism was a fun one.
The minoan civilizations notion of higher status for women, peacefulness, large merchant fleet, richness and some geographic isolation is not unlike modern Scandinavia.
Since then, I've found that the Thera explosion did not dirctly wipe out the Minoans, and the cultural inventions do not coincide in time. Still, it was an amusing thought experiment.
My first notion on hearing about the Minoan - runic connection, long before finding this board was to wonder if groups of Minoan traders retreated back to friendly shores in Norway, when the Thera explosion and Greek invaders exterminated their homeland.
I supposed it likly that there were some occasional liasons, and they may have had kin there.
There was also a period of cultural change in Norway-Sweden at what I supposed might be this time.
The notion of Minoans finding refuge in Norway, and mixing with the natives while bootstrapping the locals with knowledge of such things as writing, sailing, metallurgy and egalitarianism was a fun one.
The minoan civilizations notion of higher status for women, peacefulness, large merchant fleet, richness and some geographic isolation is not unlike modern Scandinavia.
Since then, I've found that the Thera explosion did not dirctly wipe out the Minoans, and the cultural inventions do not coincide in time. Still, it was an amusing thought experiment.
Some interesting points about Mycenaeans. It seems that Linear B was developed in Crete, at last most inscribtions are found in Crete. Analysis of inscriptions had revealed that there were about hundred scribes and still most of them in Crete. In Cyprus remained some Mycenaeans settlements and they were very conservative with kings, palaces, Linear B.
Update: Looks like the eruption clobbered the Minoans a lot harder than previously thought.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060823-thera-volcano.html
Tsunamis made of rock and fire? That is pretty severe.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060823-thera-volcano.html
Tsunamis made of rock and fire? That is pretty severe.
Since the Minoans were primarile a Goddess worshipping culture that perceived of The Supreme Being solely as female, had this happened we today might be perceiving of God solely as female. That would suit me just fine since in my own personal spirituality I perceive of God solely as female.
Actually, except for the Early Minoan Period, they did have male gods. See my post #6 on this thread for a detailed discussion of Minoan religion (I had occasion to do a term paper on it in college).
Linear B is a very interesting script.
Apparently, the Minoan language was not related to Greek at all. The Greeks tried to use Minoan script (Linear A) and developed Linear B. But eventually they dumped Linear B and adopted the first Greek alphabet because trying to write Greek in Linear B was like trying to write English with katakana. A lot of rather humorous approximations.
Check it out:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/linearb.html
Which leads me to ask... did Minoan sound like Japanese?
Perhaps there were nothing to dump (perhaps not by their own will) Platon wrote that greeks lost their knowledge.But eventually they dumped Linear B and adopted the first Greek alphabet because trying to write Greek in Linear B was like trying to write English with katakana. A lot of rather humorous approximations.
Check it out:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/linearb.html
Which leads me to ask... did Minoan sound like Japanese?
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