WI: Hitler actually died fighting

[Harald Sigurdson II]

He had been a decorated messenger some 30 years earlier, and although he was quite unfit in 1945, the fact he chose to kill himself in relative safety in his bunker over fighting with his last breath is testament in the eyes of many of his shame (or lack of sense of it) and cowardice. How would Hitler (his personality, mostly) be remembered today if he died at the hands of the enemy instead of his own hands? Remember, that's all I'm asking fir

 

[Yuelang]

Have Hitler get his own personal "super prototype" Panzer in 1940s and get him practically spearheading some fights? Including the sickle cut that end up making the French surrender?

And get him killed soon afterwards at the opening stages of Barbarossa?

*sigh*

He will be seen as more insane version of Napoleon

 

[jmc247]

Have you seen his last video in 1945? His Parkinson's was so bad his hand was shaking like a bat out of hell by that point and he was as stiff as a board.

Sure he could force his hand and arm into a position to blow out his brains, but leading a final battle change is a bridge way too far.

Maybe walking into an enemy bullet, but that is about it.

But, yah for the other poster if he died in the opening stages of the battle for France or Russia at the front he would probably be seen as a more crazy Napoleon. The thing was even then from the videos he was getting quite stiff.

 

[Paul V McNutt]

He is still the most evil person in history, just less of coward.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

He is still the most evil person in history, just less of coward.

I have found it somewhat funny that we see Hitler's suicide as taking the cowards way out when it was kind of the exact opposite of how Hitler viewed suicide... not just his own, but most of them. For him the willingness to take a life, even ones own, represented a form of bravery. From his point of view, most people who committed suicide were little different then someone who died in battle fighting.

He actually ranted about the subject of suicide and it's meaning in length at one of his military conferences in 1943 after the 6th Army surrendered at Stalingrad. It's one of those monologues that is quite revealing about Hitler's view of death and fate... maybe I should post the partial transcript I have of it.

 

[jmc247]

I have found it somewhat funny that we see Hitler's suicide as taking the cowards way out when it was kind of the exact opposite of how Hitler viewed suicide... not just his own, but most of them. For him the willingness to take a life, even ones own, represented a form of bravery. From his point of view, most people who committed suicide were little different then someone who died in battle fighting.

He actually ranted about the subject of suicide and it's meaning in length at one of his military conferences in 1943 after the 6th Army surrendered at Stalingrad. It's one of those monologues that is quite revealing about Hitler's view of death and fate... maybe I should post the partial transcript I have of it.

It goes back to Roman and early Middle Age thinking that it is more honorable to fall on your sword then to surrender in battle.

 

[(⌐■_■)]

Probably the simplest way for this to happen would involve Hitler agreeing to one of the attempts to get him to leave Berlin while the Soviets were closing the ring around the city, and then get the flight or convoy pounced on by the Soviets.

Of course, this puts the definition of 'fight' at 'fire off a few rounds at Soviet troops from a sidearm', but I think it works.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

It goes back to Roman and early Middle Age thinking that it is more honorable to fall on your sword then to surrender in battle.

Yeah, he cites that in the rant I mentioned:

Hitler: They have finally and formally surrendered there. Otherwise they'd have concentrated, formed square, and shot it out, using their last bullets on themselves. When you think that a woman's got sufficient pride just because someone's made a few insulting remarks to go and lock herself in and shoot herself right off, then I've no respect for a soldier who's afraid to do that but would rather be taken prisoner.

Zeitzler: I can't understand it either. I still wonder whether it's true. Whether perhaps he [Paulus] isn't lying there badly wounded.

Hitler: No, it's true... I had my doubts before. It was at the moment when I heard he was asking what he should do. How could he even ask such a thing? ... A revolve - makes it easy. What cowardice to be afraid of that! Ha! Better to be buried alive! And in a situation like this where he knows well enough that his death would set the example for behavior in [the rest of Stalingrad]. If he sets an example like this, one can hardly expect people to go on fighting.

Zetizler: There is no excuse; when his nerves look like breaking down he must shoot himself first.

Hitler: When one's nerves break down there is nothing to do but say, 'I can't go on' and shoot oneself. In fact you could say that the man ought to shoot himself. Just as in the old days commanders who saw that all was lost used to fall on their swords. Even Varus told his slave: "Now kill me!"

Zeitzler: I still think they may have done that and that the Russians are merely claiming to have captured them all.

Hitler: No! ... Any minute he'll be speaking on the radio - you'll see... and there's this beautiful woman, a really very beautiful woman, who is insulted by some words. Straightaway she says - it was only a triviality -: 'So I can go; I'm not wanted.' Her husband answers 'Get out then.' So the woman goes off, writes a letter of farewell, and shoots herself... What hurts me most is that I went and promoted him field marshal. I wanted to give him his heart's desire. That's the last field-marshal I promote in this war... No, they'll all talk on the radio themselves. You'll hear it soon enough. They'll all speak personally on the radio. First they'll call on the [rest of the Stalingrad garrison] to give themselves up and then they'll say the meanest things about the German army.

 

[jmc247]

Yeah, he cites that in the rant I mentioned:

Well, yes Hitler had alot of old time Roman concepts that he really believed in and also put into building his would be empire such as the SS being Germany's Praetorian Guard on steroids, to his thinking about scorched Earth warfare, slavery and colonization against those deemed less civilized. The Romans of course used terms like barbarian hordes to justify it, but Hitler used racial terms as his excuse to do the same shit.

 

[Georgepatton]

Hitler killing himself as a point of honor certainly does square with some of his formerly loyal subordinates he expected/gave the chance to kill themselves: Rohm, for example, was supposedly presented with a revolver in his prison cell before being shot when he refused.

Probably the simplest way for this to happen would involve Hitler agreeing to one of the attempts to get him to leave Berlin while the Soviets were closing the ring around the city, and then get the flight or convoy pounced on by the Soviets.

Of course, this puts the definition of 'fight' at 'fire off a few rounds at Soviet troops from a sidearm', but I think it works.

The Soviets were fairly committed to the idea that Hitler's body, and thus grave, not end up as a cite of pilgrimage for Nazi/fascist sympathizers in the post-war world, so how might they square this desire with capturing Hitler's body in a reasonably intact state? Would they distribute photographs? Put it on public display? Subsequently destroy it and distribute the ashes in the Arctic, etc?

 

[Francisco Cojuanco]

Yeah, he cites that in the rant I mentioned:

It's an interesting tension, there,vbetween Hitler's evoking the legacy of Varus and pagan Rome, generally, and Paulus' refusal to kill himself, in part due to religious reasons. Paulus was IIRC a practicing Catholic, while Hitler was not, to say the least. It's a classic tension between Christian values and the classical virtues which have been present in a long time among the warrior caste in the West.

 

[Pangur]

/SNIP
The Soviets were fairly committed to the idea that Hitler's body, and thus grave, not end up as a cite of pilgrimage for Nazi/fascist sympathizers in the post-war world, so how might they square this desire with capturing Hitler's body in a reasonably intact state? Would they distribute photographs? Put it on public display? Subsequently destroy it and distribute the ashes in the Arctic, etc?

If that was to happen then least ways there would be no grounds what so ever for the `Hitler escaped the bunker' clap trap

 

[(⌐■_■)]

Indeed, Hitler made the rational decision in deciding to take his own life. It would not do his cause any good to be captured by the Soviets and that was a distinct possibility if he tried to go down fighting, it was made all the worse by his own ill health.

Not just the suicide but also the order to destroy the bodies.