WI: German Kaiserliche Marine Focus on Forcing a Battle of Dover Strait

[David Flin]

A new centre of gravity is probably needed, in which case, the only other centre of gravity would be to actually invade Britain at Dover, because at that point, German troops on their soil absolutely would force the battle immediately

Umm, that's not really a very good plan.

In fact, it's a dreadful plan.

Logistics kills the German landing force stone dead. Attempting to avoid that fate kills the German ships trying to supply the forces stone dead.

It fixes the German forces into a specific, identifiable spot that they have to get to.

It's nonsense on stilts, and the discussions about Sealion would be equally valid here, only more so.

 

[Rizcession]

One thing about this operation that nobody has commented on: this German amphibious force, assuming that it even gets to land, can hardly sustain itself after a few days of the landing. Being generous and saying that the ocean liners could unload all the men and material onto the beaches (which would have been difficult and time consuming given the lack of a specialized amphibious landing ship), once those Germans are ashore, they are basically on their own. I am doubtful that the ocean liners will be able to make frequent supply runs for their beachhead. There is no constant stream of supplies as there had been for the amphibious landings in WW2 and Gallipoli shows how unprepared commanders and their staffs were for the additional logistical burden of an amphibious landing.

This leaves the German force with just whatever ammunition and supplies they had brought with them. They would have to be able to move forward and loot for food supplies just to survive while ammunition and medical supplies would run dry in a few weeks of fighting. At best, it will be an Anzio for a few weeks, a beached whale before succumbing to a lack of supplies.

Yes, to be clear the invasion itself is not so important, if the invasion cannot be destroyed en route or before achieving a beachhead via a land based force, then only a Naval force would be able destroy the force in short order, which would therefore force a battle at Dover Strait, but it seems the time element of the invasion simply means the GF will not engage.

 

[Arnold d.c]

Yes, to be clear the invasion itself is not so important, if the invasion cannot be destroyed en route or before achieving a beachhead via a land based force, then only a Naval force would be able destroy the force in short order, which would therefore force a battle at Dover Strait, but it seems the time element of the invasion simply means the GF will not engage.

All due respect, then the offensive will not be carried out. If the plan is to allow up to tens of thousands of German soldiers to be sent out to sea as bait in fat ocean liners for the Grand Fleet to engage, then the German Army will veto it. Period. They cannot waste manpower so frivolously.

 

[Rizcession]

All due respect, then the offensive will not be carried out. If the plan is to allow up to tens of thousands of German soldiers to be sent out to sea as bait in fat ocean liners for the Grand Fleet to engage, then the German Army will veto it. Period. They cannot waste manpower so frivolously.

I understand this, hence I added at the end of the OP to ignore the politics of the WI, I sought to discuss it within a vaccum to see if it is even possible to force the Battle, and if so, whether the force stated is sufficient to win it. The invasion is a means to this end.

 

[CV12Hornet]

OK, so it sounds like the threat of an invasion on France is, funnily enough, not actually sufficient enough of a threat, which would therefore fail to force a Battle of Dover Strait. It seems that, yes, Germany can defeat the British Channel Forces, but ultimately the British still have time on their side, time to wait for the Germans to run out of fuel and ammo and rush the Strait from West to East to go home due to a lack of resupply at Bologne. I'm absolutely fine with the entire German Fleet sinking, their survival is not the overall point, the point is to force the British the bring to bear everything in the area in a decisive battle. A new centre of gravity is probably needed, in which case, the only other centre of gravity would be to actually invade Britain at Dover, because at that point, German troops on their soil absolutely would force the battle immediately, but that's an entirely different scenario, it'd require, imo, the destruction of the BEF at the Channel ports, followed by their recommital at the Somme via La Harve.

Curious though, why do you find the ability for 21cm guns to be threats to Dreadnoughts largely irrelevant? I've stated previously, that I don't literally think the Battle is one at point blank ranges, it was to show that the gun is not so insufficient as to be useless against the Dreadnought at closer ranges.

Because the Brits aren’t going to let it get that close.

As for an invasion of Dover, there’s one insurmountable problem with that idea:

That’s what the coast of Dover looks like. By all means, let me know how you’re supposed to land troops there.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

View attachment 862181
That’s what the coast of Dover looks like. By all means, let me know how you’re supposed to land troops there.

Wasn't there during WW2 a similar situation where the Allies had to climb a cliff for their naval landing to succeed?

It is a bit unfair to ignore the possibility of the Germans planning for the naval landings if they start the whole plan in 1906 as the OP said. For Dover and the French coast.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Wasn't there during WW2 a similar situation where the Allies had to climb a cliff for their naval landing to succeed?

It is a bit unfair to ignore the possibility of the Germans planning for the naval landings if they start the whole plan in 1906 as the OP said. For Dover and the French coast.

That was a single Ranger battalion moving to destroy a gun battery. For a massed assault cliffs are a hard stop.

 

[jlckansas]

Wasn't there during WW2 a similar situation where the Allies had to climb a cliff for their naval landing to succeed?

It is a bit unfair to ignore the possibility of the Germans planning for the naval landings if they start the whole plan in 1906 as the OP said. For Dover and the French coast.

You also have to attack at low tide, the lower the better, because there is literally no beach under those cliffs any other time. Plus as a bonus they tend to have pieces break off at inopportune times, you like say a shell hits them or an explosion on the bluff above.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

That was a single Ranger battalion moving to destroy a gun battery. For a massed assault cliffs are a hard stop.

You also have to attack at low tide, the lower the better, because there is literally no beach under those cliffs any other time. Plus as a bonus they tend to have pieces break off at inopportune times, you like say a shell hits them or an explosion on the bluff above.

Hmm. Would the geography allow for a medium sized ship (the size of a destroyer or cruiser) to dock a few meters from the cliff face? Perhaps a pulley system could be made by the smaller, specialized landing troops, similar to what the Italians did in the Alps, where they could later lift horses, artillery and other heavy supplies, and batches of troops.

Though, how brittle are the cliffs?

 

[fester]

Hello Dorknought,

First, I am not Riain, I'm taking ideas from Riain and Dr. Alexander Clarke and combining them into a what if.

Second, the proposed operation is one to be conducted in 1915, not in 1918 with all the pressures therein. Mutiny is a real risk, but the situations would be unique to both, and is not a guaranteed thing.

Third, the reality of Germany not having enough slipways is a good point, however, a standardisation on a class of very similar vessels, ie a Blücher style of ship, should be cheaper, and faster to build en masse, and whenever they feel like they have too many of these ships, they can choose to build more screens instead, just as the British can choose to build more of a counter to their choice.

Fourth, the Armoured Cruiser threat is sure to be countered, however, how it is countered is not clear. For example, the British might expect these Armoured Cruisers to be used in commerce raiding missions past the Dover Strait and up the North Sea, maybe even into the Atlantic (doubtful), and decide the Battlecruiser concept, being able to maintain the same speed, but with greater gun range and armour, would be a sufficient counter, rather than simply building more of their own Armoured Cruisers. In this case, the British are not likely to benefit, a Battlecruiser at these ranges is just as vulnerable as the Armoured Cruisers.

Fifth, my understanding of torpedos, submarines is that these technologies are not really operationally reliable in 1915, the RN cannot in fact just "bring in large numbers in both Destroyers and the largest submarine fleet in the world". Being charitable, Germany will have their own screening vessels, their own torpedos, etc, rather than simply producing only Blüchers with the 900M Mark budget they'll have.

Sixth, your remark at the end, I find it without point to alternate history. The RN exists, it stops any Naval Invasion, it will always stop any Naval Invasion, therefore history could only be the way it was, no matter what you try to do. Then, respectfully, if you believe this, why are you even on this forum to begin with? If you don't believe this, why bring it up?

There are two basic threats as you outline. The first is the traditional commerce raiding threat. That is countered by the RN converting some of the superdreadnought budget into long range I-class type battlecruisers plus more long distance/high endurance cruisers combined with giving British port purchasing agents more cash to either destroy or buy up the German logistics network. The back-stop to this plan is high value convoys (and there will be convoys against surface threats) are joined by pre-dreadnoughts and early dreadnoughts as they just need a capable threat of damaging a raider to win.

The Channel threat is easily countered.... LOTS OF MINES AND LOTS OF TORPEDOES

 

[David Flin]

Hmm. Would the geography allow for a medium sized ship (the size of a destroyer or cruiser) to dock a few meters from the cliff face? Perhaps a pulley system could be made by the smaller, specialized landing troops, similar to what the Italians did in the Alps, where they could later lift horses, artillery and other heavy supplies, and batches of troops.

Let's wave a magic wand and say that a such a ship could hold steady in such a position. Let's wave another magic wand and say that this ship, the size of a destroyer, can hold ten thousand troops and all their equipment. Let's wave a third magic wand and say that British ships don't interfere with this operation.

You're sending troops up a rope using a pulley system, which will take some 15 minutes (and that's with a half wave of a magic wand) for the soldier to get from ship to cliff top.

In one spot.

With the defence knowing where this is happening.

Yeah.

Good luck with that.

 

[I want to learn]

Another piece of this plan that is playing to British strengths is pre-war British resources and war planning. Although Britain entered WW1 allied to France, they had only signed a treaty together a decade before, and even afterwards institutions were slow to completely discard the idea of war with France. Britain was well equipped to deal with a naval war in the English Channel, at the expense of the historic war with Germany. The Royal Navy had large numbers of very short range torpedo boats and “coastal submarines”, designed to defend English ports and raid French ones. That wasn’t a mission required historically, but it becomes relevant in a “WW1 Sea Lion” scenario.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Though, how brittle are the cliffs?

The cliffs are chalk, so very.

 

[jlckansas]

You also have very accurate maps and artillery positions mapped out before hand because they were going to war with France for centuries and needed to defend from them. Once you have ships sited heading that way you will have mobile artillery units, 13lbr's up to 6inch howitzers and heavier Railway guns, moved into position to fire on the area where they are. Given it would take at about an hour to get someone off the ship, up the cliff, and to rig the system, you would have regular troops with Lee Enfields and Vickers MG's sited. The Troops and artillery would not hesitate shoot at the edge to break sections off to make them fall off the cliff. While this is going on you are going to have some of the craziest members of the RN, commanders of small ships that think they are a frigate commander from the wooden ship era, coming in to attack you any way they can.

 

[Nick P]

Looking briefly at the possibility of land actions along the Kent and Sussex coastline...

Royal Marines at Chatham
Royal Engineers at Chatham
Royal Navy barracks at Chatham
Royal Marines at Deal
Dover Barracks
Dover Castle
Dover Redoubt
Folkestone Napier Barracks
Royal Military Canal at Hythe
Dymchurch Redoubt
Lydd Army Camp - Artillery
Hastings Barracks
Around 20 Martello Towers along the coast to be commandeered as focal defence points.

Further inland are army barracks at Canterbury, Ashford and Maidstone. There are numerous army bases in London and on its southern edge. It is little more than 2 hours to Dover from London by train - we can safely expect that all civilian travel is stopped and only troop trains head south and east towards Kent.
Army units north of London will be mobilising and marching to the sound of the guns.
It is highly unlikely that the German forces arrive on the beaches undetected. Therefore the British Army will be digging in on the coast when the German Navy gains first sight of the White Cliffs of Dover. A handful of cadets could hold the clifftops while the regulars move to the lower ground for direct fighting.

Meanwhile the Royal Navy is sweeping down from Rosyth, Harwich and Chatham as the fleet sorties eastwards from Plymouth and Portsmouth to smash the Imperial German Navy between them in a mighty hammer and anvil action.

 

[El Pip]

I'm absolutely fine with the entire German Fleet sinking, their survival is not the overall point, the point is to force the British the bring to bear everything in the area in a decisive battle

Wait what?

If the liners, troops and indeed invasion are just doomed bait and the entire German Fleet sinking is fine, then what the hell is the point of this entire endeavour?

 

[CaptainCalvert]

The biggest weakness in the plan is the liners. If hit on the way in, they and the packed troops on them will suffer heavily. If hit on the way out that mean there will be no resupply or reinforcement.

Without radar and with limited air scouting, they might get away with it once or twice, but the RN knows its job, and that's to sink the troop ships, and cut off the retreat or the German fleet.

The result in the Channel itself is almost irrelevant if retreat to Germany can be blocked, as the alternative trip round Ireland is long, dangerous and likely to meet a hostile reception committee as it heads from North East Scotland to Germany.

With the German fleet effectively wiped out, Britain is in a far stronger position than OTL, even if every RN vessel in the Channel was badly damaged or sunk.

 

[Rizcession]

Wait what?

If the liners, troops and indeed invasion are just doomed bait and the entire German Fleet sinking is fine, then what the hell is the point of this entire endeavour?

The point is to see if it is possible to even force a battle in Dover Strait to begin with. If it is possible, which it doesn't seem to be past the start of the war, then a force can be built around such a scenario. Basically having everyone survive is a problem I'll figure out later.

Edit: I say it can work at the start of the war, that's from Dr. Alexander Clarke's test in iirc his version of Harpoon using the Fleets as they were. If they work in that one specific scenario, then changing around some ships might make a more favourable outcome, and changing around the start date might make a more favourable strategic position on land. I don't know if changing these variables means the Battle still happens, hence the question of the WI.

 

[Post]

The point is to see if it is possible to even force a battle in Dover Strait to begin with. If it is possible, which it doesn't seem to be past the start of the war, then a force can be built around such a scenario. Basically having everyone survive is a problem I'll figure out later.

Edit: I say it can work at the start of the war, that's from Dr. Alexander Clarke's test in iirc his version of Harpoon using the Fleets as they were. If they work in that one specific scenario, then changing around some ships might make a more favourable outcome, and changing around the start date might make a more favourable strategic position on land. I don't know if changing these variables means the Battle still happens, hence the question of the WI.

The thing is, best case scenario for the Germans is a pyrric victory, because I can't see much of the HSF getting out. So they're going to lose10,000s of men, the ocean liners, most of the HSF. Given that the GF was larger than the HSF, and the British aren't complete idiots, there will still be at least as much left as the HSF* but the British will also have more of other assorted floating stuff and more building capacity. Meanwhile it doesn't improve Germany's chances of winning the war in France. And France is the main enemy, after all it's right next door.

* but more likely more

 

[vizzer]

The thing is, best case scenario for the Germans is a pyrric victory, because I can't see much of the HSF getting out. So they're going to lose10,000s of men, the ocean liners, most of the HSF. Given that the GF was larger than the HSF, and the British aren't complete idiots, there will still be at least as much left as the HSF* but the British will also have more of other assorted floating stuff and more building capacity. Meanwhile it doesn't improve Germany's chances of winning the war in France. And France is the main enemy, after all it's right next door.

* but more likely more

I think if Tirpitz rather than the "Risk Fleet" idea had come up with the "Let's throw the fleet away at the start of the war and bring England into the war against us" idea he would have been told to go back to his estates and let sensible people run the navy.