WI: Early Empire of Germany by the 10th century instead of the Ottonian restoration of the HRE

Let's assume that Otto I, instead of restoring the (Holy) Roman Emperors' title, unused for 38 years prior to his coronation, would have opted for elevating the Kingdom of East Francia (later Kingdom of Germany) to the range of Empire of Germany and avoided any kind of involvement in Italian affairs (or at least, not south of Tuscany) disconnecting the investment of him and his lineage from the policies of any Pope (specially the Tusculans of his era).

Would this have preserved a more centralized and more stable Medieval Germany? How much legitimacy could he have for doing so? Would the disconnection from Roman issues accelerate other German policies of the era like Ostsiedlung? Which relations could he have with Poland or Hungary? And with West Francia/France?
 
1. It might not have been possible. To be an Emperor, at least one that was taken seriously, you had to have a claim based on ancient Rome. This is doubly true with the Byzantine group in the East being very prominent.

2. Would it have changed much? They still claimed the title "King of Germany" and yet there was never a huge centralization effort other than trying to take down some of the Papal influence.

3. Not sure on the rest.
 
Not possible- theologically, The Empire was always Rome. I think i read somewhere that Napoleon's creation of the French Empire was based on surpassing rome.

But the much more interesting thing is a lack of italian adventure. OTL's HRE wasn't always the limp sack of states we mock now- it once was about as powerful as France (like, what France should've been if not for the Angevins, depending on when we're talking about). The problems arose in italy: the Pope wanted secular power; the Italian city-states were increasingly rich and increasingly independent of the Emperor, which was only exacerbated by the alps being in the way. But when it was united, it was strong. The issue was always how easy it was to disunite- rich italians, Investure controversy, the reformation...

But if you rip italy out, Germany is much stronger and able to centralize without having to concern itself with Italy and all the trouble the pope gets upto with venice. The problem is, France just lost about the only check on her medieval ambitions, because England often courted the HRE for help during their wars- which France still won. I imagine France retains flanders longer than otl and a chunk of Lombardy.
 
1. It might not have been possible. To be an Emperor, at least one that was taken seriously, you had to have a claim based on ancient Rome. This is doubly true with the Byzantine group in the East being very prominent.

Not possible- theologically, The Empire was always Rome. I think i read somewhere that Napoleon's creation of the French Empire was based on surpassing rome.

True, but let's define what could be considered 'Rome' by the mid-10th century.

The city of Rome and the Papacy itself were under the chaotic Tusculan rule (the Dark Century) which Otto I put to an end. Instead of the policy of 'saving Rome from the Tusculans and get the HRE title as reward' Otto I could have followed an alternate strategy of fait accompli like getting crowned in Milan (a traditional Imperial see) or in a seized Ravenna (the Tuscolans hardly controlled anything outside Rome) by the local archbishops (at the least the one in Milan was confronted to the Pope by then), strip the title of Kingdom of Italy and reorganize Northern Italy in a series of weak clients states under his vassalage, favouring the local clergy and ignoring and isolating Tuscolan Rome.

Probably at first he could have rewarded little legitimacy, but with time, if Rome is kept at that low situation for longer, his heirs could have built legitimacy on his claims, just like other Empires would do later, like the Russian Empire as alleged legitimate successor of Byzantium. Moreover, at the time there was no relevant power other than West Francia to challenge that, and then they were struggling with the transition to the Capetian era.

2. Would it have changed much? They still claimed the title "King of Germany" and yet there was never a huge centralization effort other than trying to take down some of the Papal influence.

IOTL the Kingdom of Germany remained relatively centralized (the system of stem duchies was at least quite symmetric and hierarchical) until the HRE tried to accomodate other entities like Burgundy, Bohemia, the northern Italian realms etc. in a single 'system' which drift into a more decentralized asymmetric system.
 
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Difficult, if not impossible.
Emperor was a title associated with Rome, and since Charlemagne associated, in the "West", with the Kingdom of Italy such that subsequent Emperors were always Kings of Italy (but not necessarily v.v).
Assuming an Imperial title in this period will be assuming overlordship of Italy/Rome and reacted to accordingly.
 
Difficult, if not impossible.
Emperor was a title associated with Rome, and since Charlemagne associated, in the "West", with the Kingdom of Italy such that subsequent Emperors were always Kings of Italy (but not necessarily v.v).
Assuming an Imperial title in this period will be assuming overlordship of Italy/Rome and reacted to accordingly.

Wouldn't it be possible if Rome continues to fade away under Tusculan rule and loses part of the Papal states (like Ravenna), to the point that they had no possible control over any external power taking the Imperial title as fail accompli? And if the title of King of Italy is permanently revoked and substituted by vassals of Germany?
 
Wouldn't it be possible if Rome continues to fade away under Tusculan rule and loses part of the Papal states (like Ravenna), to the point that they had no possible control over any external power taking the Imperial title as fail accompli? And if the title of King of Italy is permanently revoked and substituted by vassals of Germany?
No.
If Rome fades away like that then the Kings of Italy gain the Imperial title by default of their control.
Any German king thereafter becoming Emperor by conquest of Italy then relegates Germany to a lesser title. He would be Emperor of Rome ("Romania") not Germany.
 
No.
If Rome fades away like that then the Kings of Italy gain the Imperial title by default of their control.
Any German king thereafter becoming Emperor by conquest of Italy then relegates Germany to a lesser title. He would be Emperor of Rome ("Romania") not Germany.

Then the best strategy would have been IMO to strength the Kingdom of Germany without assuming any Imperial authority and left the title vacant, as it has been for four decades. The north of Italy could have been divided in several vassal entities (like it was the case IOTL of the Duchy of Friuli) and prevent anybody to claim either the Iron Crown or the Imperial title.
 
Then the best strategy would have been IMO to strength the Kingdom of Germany without assuming any Imperial authority and left the title vacant, as it has been for four decades. The north of Italy could have been divided in several vassal entities (like it was the case IOTL of the Duchy of Friuli) and prevent anybody to claim either the Iron Crown or the Imperial title.
Perhaps.
It's rather unlikely that anyone conquering Italy/Lombardy doesn't claim that crown. And if you're King of both Germany & Italy then the Imperial title is not only easy to obtain but hard not to use, if only to add weight against rebellious vassals and prevent rivals from using it.
 
Perhaps.
It's rather unlikely that anyone conquering Italy/Lombardy doesn't claim that crown. And if you're King of both Germany & Italy then the Imperial title is not only easy to obtain but hard not to use, if only to add weight against rebellious vassals and prevent rivals from using it.

Well, Otto I was at first quite reluctant to intervene in northern Italy (he was begged to do it, not his initiative) and once did it, returned to Germany, first appointing a regent, but later he prefered to do not hold directly the Iron Crown and rather pass it to a local vassal. So his first idea was not to hold both kingdoms at the same time, but just 'puppetize' northern Italy (the title of King of Italy had already little real influence south of Tuscany by then).

Development of events changed this original situation during the following decade and led him to intervene in Rome etc etc. but maybe if the timeline would have been different, then he could stay away from Italian affairs with just a weakened and semi-fragmented Kingdom of Italy as his vassal in the south. Given the situation, with the pass of some time it is probably a break-up of northern Italy in different entities, with just maybe a vassal in Milan holding an Iron Crown empty of real authority, while the vacant Imperial title would be fading from scope if nobody claims it again (only possible rival for it could be the King of France, but given the situation there would be unlikely, and I doubt that if the Tusculan Popes remained in power would offer it to anybody outside Italy, if any).
 
Well, Otto I was at first quite reluctant to intervene in northern Italy (he was begged to do it, not his initiative) and once did it, returned to Germany, first appointing a regent, but later he prefered to do not hold directly the Iron Crown and rather pass it to a local vassal. So his first idea was not to hold both kingdoms at the same time, but just 'puppetize' northern Italy (the title of King of Italy had already little real influence south of Tuscany by then).
I'll think you'll find that wasn't him but Conrad.
Development of events changed this original situation during the following decade and led him to intervene in Rome etc etc. but maybe if the timeline would have been different, then he could stay away from Italian affairs with just a weakened and semi-fragmented Kingdom of Italy as his vassal in the south. Given the situation, with the pass of some time it is probably a break-up of northern Italy in different entities, with just maybe a vassal in Milan holding an Iron Crown empty of real authority, while the vacant Imperial title would be fading from scope if nobody claims it again (only possible rival for it could be the King of France, but given the situation there would be unlikely, and I doubt that if the Tusculan Popes remained in power would offer it to anybody outside Italy, if any).
Possible. Still doesn't make him Emperor of Germany though.
 
Let's assume that Otto I, instead of restoring the (Holy) Roman Emperors' title, unused for 38 years prior to his coronation, would have opted for elevating the Kingdom of East Francia (later Kingdom of Germany) to the range of Empire of Germany and avoided any kind of involvement in Italian affairs (or at least, not south of Tuscany) disconnecting the investment of him and his lineage from the policies of any Pope (specially the Tusculans of his era).

There is little reason for Otto to avoid the title, and many reasons for him to acquire it. It gives him a sort of supremacy (or at least guardianship) over the Church, which was critical given the centrality of the bishops in Otto's regime and the Ottonian policy of exerting control over its neighbors (like Poland) through the extension of German (arch)bishoprics. It gave him formal justification for the suzerainty he had already assumed over his fellow kings. It also legitimated his control over the contested region of Lorraine, because "Middle Francia" had historically been part of the imperial domain given to Lothair. But even if Otto did decline to seek the crown for some reason, this would not prevent his successors from seeking it. Otto, after all, was not the first East Francian king to attempt an Italian expedition; Arnulf of Carinthia had done it (although he held Italy only briefly), and Otto's father Henry was supposedly considering an Italian excursion at the time he died.

In retrospect one might argue that assuming the imperial title and becoming "involved" in Italy contributed to the fragmentation of the German state, but that was not at all apparent at the time. Otto's power and prestige were vastly increased, not diminished, by his assumption of imperial authority, and it is difficult to see why he would turn it down.

The idea of leaving Italy half-conquered and fragmented is a dangerous one, as Otto himself learned. Berengar II at first seized power in Italy with Otto's tacit support, was subsequently forced to acknowledge Otto's suzerainty, and was shorn of the Veronese march, but as soon as Otto was distracted Berengar made a bid to recover what he had lost and expand his own authority. Any king of a "rump Italy" with any dignity or ambition is going to be looking for an opportunity to re-unite the kingdom and claim the imperial crown which was traditionally associated with the Italian realm. No previous post-Carolingian attempt to divide the kingdom or share the royal title had worked out very well. It seems to me that rule over Italy is an all-or-nothing proposition; one must either subjugate it and allow no competitors, or leave it alone.
 
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The idea of leaving Italy half-conquered and fragmented is a dangerous one, as Otto himself learned. Berengar II at first seized power in Italy with Otto's tacit support, was subsequently forced to acknowledge Otto's suzerainty, and was shorn of the Veronese march, but as soon as Otto was distracted Berengar made a bid to recover what he had lost and expand his own authority. Any king of a "rump Italy" with any dignity or ambition is going to be looking for an opportunity to re-unite the kingdom and claim the imperial crown which was traditionally associated with the Italian realm. No previous post-Carolingian attempt to divide the kingdom or share the royal title had worked out very well. It seems to me that rule over Italy is an all-or-nothing proposition; one must either subjugate it and allow no competitors, or leave it alone.

Then, do you think that a United Kingdom of Germany and Italy, without assuming the Imperial title and getting involved in the Papal intrigues, would have worked better? (As an intermediate situation between IOTL and the proposed one)
 
We have a precedent in the Habsburgs making Austria an 'Archduchy', so Archking would be pretty safe bet.

Its sounds pretty cool aswell,
But that happened after Otto's reign? I think the correct term would be postcedent but that wouldn't make any sense since I think it would mean having happened after the event (which in this case hasn't happened).

There's nothing preventing Otto from appointing regents over the various lands of Italy. As long as he has the bishops and mayors of those regions in hand, he can just say he rules as the King of Germany and Italy.
 
There's nothing preventing Otto from appointing regents over the various lands of Italy. As long as he has the bishops and mayors of those regions in hand, he can just say he rules as the King of Germany and Italy.
Then if he rules both then that automatically makes the next logical step to assume the Imperial title which was tied to overlordship of Italy. The Holy Roman Empire being the HRE of the German Nation during the 14th and 15th centuries when the Empire fragmented and had lost effective control over Italy. Also the title of Emperor was higher in dignity than that of a mere King (Rex). The Carolingians had already established the precedent of the Imperial title being assumed by the ruler holding multiple Kingdom level titles. The Emperors were officially Kings of East Francia and Kings of the Romans. This was why it was such a big deal when Napoleon made himself Emperor of the French and King of Italy. The Austrians had to dissolve the Empire fearing that Napoleon would be after that title too, fearing that he would try to emulate Charlemagne. To be honest, the Imperial Title applying to Germany as a "German Empire" is really anachronistic for the early middle ages. While various Kings of Castile later called themselves Imperator Totius Hispaniae, this self proclaimed Imperial title was never really recognized in Europe, and was later abandoned by the Castilian Kings who later took the title of King of Spain. The people living in this era had only one real concept of Empire. This was the idea of the universal Empire going back to the Romans under Constantine being of one law, one faith, and having one sole Emperor. This idea was reinforced and pushed by Justinian who likely envisioned himself as the successor to Constantine with his attempts to reunify the Empire and enforce these three principles which he was mostly successful at doing. The purpose of the HRE, was so that there would be a new large polity in the West to provide a framework/stable political order for Western Christendom. Initially the Eastern Romans had provided this and protected the Pope holding legitimacy as the sole Christian Empire, but they had to retreat from the West following the 7th Century with the Arabs nearly taking Constantinople. Thus the Pope looked to the Franks protection. The Frankish Kings having their own large polity was the perfect vehicle for this renewed idea of the Imperium in the West. The land under the Franks at that time in otl covered most of Christendom in the West, and with their control over Gaul and most of Italy, they laid claim to the Imperial title. The Carolinigian concept of empire was still alive in the West. This whole period in the 10th century was largely seen as an interregnum by contemporary historiographers. The last legitimate "Western Roman" (Frankish Empire) Emperor was Charles the Fat who upon being deposed, saw the Empire fracture into five various Kingdoms. Otto "the Great" was formally known as King of East Francia at that time. There's even some evidence that Otto's father had some aspirations to take the Imperial title. Otto in various points in his reign had to deal with rebellions and other matters at home preventing him from focusing on Italy.
 
The Frankish Kings having their own large polity was the perfect vehicle for this renewed idea of the Imperium in the West. The land under the Franks at that time in otl covered most of Christendom in the West, and with their control over Gaul and most of Italy, they laid claim to the Imperial title. The Carolinigian concept of empire was still alive in the West. This whole period in the 10th century was largely seen as an interregnum by contemporary historiographers. The last legitimate "Western Roman" (Frankish Empire) Emperor was Charles the Fat who upon being deposed, saw the Empire fracture into five various Kingdoms. Otto "the Great" was formally known as King of East Francia at that time. There's even some evidence that Otto's father had some aspirations to take the Imperial title. Otto in various points in his reign had to deal with rebellions and other matters at home preventing him from focusing on Italy.

You said it all.

The concept of Empire in the West was still alive by the mid-10th century, but it also was considered to have failed with the fall of the last (and infamous) united Carolingian rule of Charles the Fat. You say it perfectly: the contemporary historiographers consider that period an interregnum until Otto I restores the HRE in 962, BUT this was not the perspective back then. Neither Henry the Fowler nor his son Otto the Great thought 'oh we are living in an interregnum period, let's restore the HRE'; in fact, the father did not dare to involve himself in the Italian affairs and the son had to be begged for that, and at first he did it reluctantly, just to quickly return to Germany afterwards.

Their actions indicate that they were reluctant to get involved in the Italian affairs: they could bring the Imperial glory but they could also bring more problems and dangerous enemies. They were aware what happened to previous kings who tried to venture in the Tusculan Roman politics i.e. Hugh of Provence. I think they appreciated the relative stability they had reached in East Francia/Germany compared to the anarchic West Francia or the poisoned Tusculan Rome.

Of course, the development of the events finally led Otto to depose the Tusculan Popes and to take the Imperial title vacant for four decades, but it does not seem that this was his first, second or third intention regarding the situation in Italy, and it could have been pretty possible that after 952 he would have left those affairs to whatever regent or vassal and let the Tusculans to keep on falling into their own hell.
 
As said if he rules over both then that automatically makes the next logical step to assume the Imperial title which was tied to overlordship of Italy. Otto has nothing to lose by claiming that title and lots to gain.
 
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