WI/CH: No Feudalism

[Sam R.]

What do you mean by feudalism? If we're going with Marx & Engels, the only way to prevent it is by eliminating humanity prior to feudalism.

yours,
Sam R.

 

[pieman3141]

I've heard that the supposed economic "reforms" helped feudalism a lot. Habermas also states that there was a general withdrawal of the populace from everyday communication and public discourse... The links between the words 'idiot,' 'private,' and 'domestic' certainly make the point.

 

[Killer300]

Okay, you know, here's a thought.

What if the Printing Press was invented in Ancient Rome somehow? That would easily shatter feudalism before it can start, as it helps solve communication issues, among other things.

 

[modelcitizen]

There was actually an essay on this very subject in the first "What If...?" book. Two possible PODs were proposed:

1. A Roman victory over the Visigoths at Adrianople in 378, which buys the Roman Empire enough time to regroup its defenses and reignite confidence and political will. This saves the Roman Empire from its decline and keeps Europe unified under Rome. The end result is that the Roman Empire continues, but what this means is continued centralization and hierarchy, with the pope still subordinate to the emperor, and most likely without any eventual calls for reformation, parliamentarianism, democracy, and the like getting very far.

or 2. A Muslim victory over the Franks at Poitiers around 732, which sees a complete Islamic conquest of Europe, which remains under a unified caliphate. Such a society would also have been hierarchical and slaveholding, but would've enjoyed all the benefits of the Islamic Golden Age, from infrastructural development to the patronage of arts, science, and philosophy to cultural diversity to prosperous trade economies.

In both cases, the author argues that while this would've meant stability and cultural development, it would've prevented the ideas of secularism and individualism that were made possible in the decentralized feudal age, which in turn means no development of democracy or republicanism as we know them.

I am willing to bet that with Number Two, a lot of the Bubonic Plague does not happen, and Europe is very, very, very urban by now, and in a good cosmopolitan way.

 

[RousseauX]

It is doubtful that, for reasons mentioned in the WI threads on Poiters: that it's going to lead to an Islamic Europe.

But even if Islam conquerors France or w/e....then what? They still have to deal with the same problems that Christians kingdoms did. What are they going to do different exactly?

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

It is doubtful that, for reasons mentioned in the WI threads on Poiters: that it's going to lead to an Islamic Europe.

But even if Islam conquerors France or w/e....then what? They still have to deal with the same problems that Christians kingdoms did. What are they going to do different exactly?

Considering Feudalism sprang up in the Islamic world as well, in a multitude of forms, not much

 

[Killer300]

I guess the Printing Press idea is out...?

 

[Maniakes]

I guess the Printing Press idea is out...?

I'm not sure how much the printing press would solve communications problem. The main communications problem at hand is travel time, not breadth of reach: the round-trip time for a letter from Londinium to reach the Emperor in Constantinople and then for the Emperor's reply to come back would still be something like 2-3 months, even if you have the capability to print up hundreds of copies of the letter and the reply.

IMO, the major effects of the printing press on the end of the feudal era were in breaking down feudal institutions that assumed control of informational channels (i.e. governments previously had to rely on the nobility and the church in part because they were the only ones who could read and write), and in speeding the development of capital as a factor of production by facilitating the advancement and spread of practical knowledge.

 

[Killer300]

Ah... yeah, okay, very good points.

And there really isn't much one can do about the communication problem, although apparently China found ways to at least mitigate this.

 

[Arachnid]

To repeat what I said up the page I think the Catholic Church is Europe's only hope to have an equivalent to the Chinese Mandarins. Just like China a Papal Monarchy Europe will still have a heavy dose of feudalism but the existence of a non-hereditary centralised bureaucracy does mean it could escape full blown feudalism. The problem is the Papal Monarchy scenario is imho ASB.

 

[Killer300]

To repeat what I said up the page I think the Catholic Church is Europe's only hope to have an equivalent to the Chinese Mandarins. Just like China a Papal Monarchy Europe will still have a heavy dose of feudalism but the existence of a non-hereditary centralised bureaucracy does mean it could escape full blown feudalism. The problem is the Papal Monarchy scenario is imho ASB.

Hmm, not necessarily. Perhaps it would mean a rather... different fall of the Roman Empire, that leaves an intact religious structure to take over from it?

Okay, quite doubtful, but still.