WI: Centralized HRE in 14th century?

[hirsch91]

PoD is 1) Albert I of Habsburg being successful in taking the Counties of Holland and Zeeland for the Habsburgs following John of Hollands death as he planned IOTL and more importantly 2) his son Rudolph surviving as King of Bohemia.

What happens next?

 

[hirsch91]

The counties of Holland and Zeeland would make a great addition to the Habsburgs realm since at that time the power of the Emperor was measured by their power base. These lands could be given to John of Swabia thus preventing him turning into a Parricider and stopping the centralization of the HRE in its tracks.
With the mouth of the Rhine being part of the Habsburg realm, Albert I would have more incentives to crush the Electorate of Cologne too just like he did with the Palatinate, Mainz and Trier over the tariffs on the Rhine.
Furthermore, with a Habsburg Holland and Zeeland, Albert I could interfere in the Franco-Flemish war like he intended to. Flanders might not lose the war or at least not as badly as it did IOTL.
Somewhat down the line, a Habsburg could marry Joanna of Brabant, thus uniting Holland, Zeeland and Brabant. Alternatively, Margaret of Hainaut would be another candidate.
Alternatively, John could get the Margraviate of Meissen and Thuringia as Albert still had a claim on it and moved to take it.

While Holland and Zeeland were not as rich as they would later become and certainly not as rich as Flanders thanks to the wool trade, they still were on the rise and not negligible. Alberts predecessor Adolph got 90,000 gold marks from the English for an alliance against France. ITTL The English and the Habsburgs would be natural allies as the both of them would like to keep the French out of Flanders. The Habsburgs could have tipped the balance any time.

 

[hirsch91]

In 1301, Albert went to war with the Rhine electorates over tariffs on the Rhine and won. He tried to abolish the electorates and make the title hereditary, however, Pope Boniface prevented it. Could he still have done it? No doubt Boniface would excommunicate him but other Holy Roman Emperors after him were excommunicated too without it causing that much trouble.
If making the title of Emperor hereditary does not work out, could Albert just redistribute the Rhine electorates and bestow them upon family and allies?
If that's a non-starter, could he simply reduce the Rhine electorates in size and take much of their land?
Or could he just try again once Rudolf is King of Bohemia, conquer the Rhine electorates, depose the pope and install an anti pope like Louis IV tried to do?

Given the Habsburgs would be hereditary Emperors, would also be able to mediate regarding who gets Brandenburg once the Ascanians die out. Assuming the Habsburgs get Brandenburg, too, would they press the claim on Pomerania? Would the electorate of Saxony simply fall into the Habsburgs orbit simply by being surrounded by them?

With the Rhine electorates neutralized, Bohemia under Habsburg control, and other extensive land gains, Albert would be able to centralize the HRE by issuing a golden Bull. IOTL Louis IV tried to impose the eternal peace, standardize coinage and internal tariffs but the Rhine electors prevented it so that would give us a clue as to what the first reforms would be. The Habsburgs would easily be the most powerful house in the HRE with no contender within the Empire. Albert could impose the perpetual peace as he tried to IOTL and even more far reaching reforms. He and his successors would have the resources and the political capital to centralize the HRE.

 

[Elfwine]

I think making things hereditary/the Habsburgs overwhelmingly dominant within the Empire to the point of ignoring excommunication is going to take a while (looking at the failure of say, Henry VI's plan for the first). Albert can certainly strengthen their position, but I'm not sure the reaction to him managing to secure Holland and Zeeland would be quite as - well, passive as this.

 

[Janprimus]

PoD is 1) Albert I of Habsburg being successful in taking the Counties of Holland and Zeeland for the Habsburgs following John of Hollands death as he planned IOTL and more importantly 2) his son Rudolph surviving as King of Bohemia.

What happens next?

Rudolf of Bohemia surviving, I once started a thread about that, (many) years ago.
The counties of Holland & Zeeland actually recognized the right of women to inherit in the absence of male heirs and they like most principalities in the Low Countries definite allowed inheritance through the female line, once the male line has gone extinct. As such the house of Avesnes, counts of Hainaut, clearly have the superior claim and local support.
That's too bad for the Habsburgs, since it would have solved the issues between Johann Parricida and his uncle, first duke of Austria & Styria, eventually king of the Romans, Albrecht of Austria. Too bad for them the Brandenburg branch of the house of Ascania doesn't go extinct a couple of years sooner. The Electorate and Margraviate of Brandenburg would revert to the Empire.
It wouldn't totally satisfy Johann though, since his mother actually was a Bohemian princess. But Brandenburg, with the promise the others Habsburgs would support his claim to Pomerania, maybe Lusatia then goes to the Bohemian Habsburg branch in return.

Rudolf of Bohemia, also has some problems, for one there are still surviving Premyslid princesses. He needs to be able to control, who they are allowed to marry. Perhaps he and Elisabeth Richeza get a son, who will marry a Premyslid or Elisabeth dies in childbed and Rudolf remarries a now old enough Bohemian princess.
By becoming king of Bohemia, Rudolf also had a claim on the kingdom of Poland, IOTL the house of Luxembourg eventually traded this claim for actual formally recognized control of the duchy of Silesia (instead of a Polish duchy, it became a Bohemian duchy), a territory already under great Bohemian influence, unlike the rest of Poland.

 

[hirsch91]

I think making things hereditary/the Habsburgs overwhelmingly dominant within the Empire to the point of ignoring excommunication is going to take a while (looking at the failure of say, Henry VI's plan for the first). Albert can certainly strengthen their position, but I'm not sure the reaction to him managing to secure Holland and Zeeland would be quite as - well, passive as this.

Well the Habsburgs were pretty dominant for like 2 years until Rudolf died and everything came crumbling down. They occuppied the 4 Rhine electorates and rendered them harmless. They were allied to Saxony and Brandenburg was being kept busy by Pomerania and Denmark. The rulers of lower Bavaria and the Burgrave of Nuremberg were also in their sphere. The Habsburgs were in a much better position in those 2 short years than the Hohenstaufens ever were. There weren't many big players who could have opposed them within the Empire other than perhaps the Luxembourgs though whether they would risk war on 2 fronts against both the Habsburgs and the French to preserve the electoral system is doubtful.

Rudolf of Bohemia surviving, I once started a thread about that, (many) years ago.
The counties of Holland & Zeeland actually recognized the right of women to inherit in the absence of male heirs and they like most principalities in the Low Countries definite allowed inheritance through the female line, once the male line has gone extinct. As such the house of Avesnes, counts of Hainaut, clearly have the superior claim and local support.
That's too bad for the Habsburgs, since it would have solved the issues between Johann Parricida and his uncle, first duke of Austria & Styria, eventually king of the Romans, Albrecht of Austria. Too bad for them the Brandenburg branch of the house of Ascania doesn't go extinct a couple of years sooner. The Electorate and Margraviate of Brandenburg would revert to the Empire.
It wouldn't totally satisfy Johann though, since his mother actually was a Bohemian princess. But Brandenburg, with the promise the others Habsburgs would support his claim to Pomerania, maybe Lusatia then goes to the Bohemian Habsburg branch in return.

Rudolf of Bohemia, also has some problems, for one there are still surviving Premyslid princesses. He needs to be able to control, who they are allowed to marry. Perhaps he and Elisabeth Richeza get a son, who will marry a Premyslid or Elisabeth dies in childbed and Rudolf remarries a now old enough Bohemian princess.
By becoming king of Bohemia, Rudolf also had a claim on the kingdom of Poland, IOTL the house of Luxembourg eventually traded this claim for actual formally recognized control of the duchy of Silesia (instead of a Polish duchy, it became a Bohemian duchy), a territory already under great Bohemian influence, unlike the rest of Poland.

John Parricida, he could get lands in Meissen and Thuringia as Albert did plan to get those lands. Though since his mother was a Přemyslid princess, they might want to keep him away from Bohemia. Alternatively, they could give him parts of the electorate of Trier or the duchy of Westphalia from Cologne.
Once Rudolph has established himself and quelled the rebellions, the resources of Bohemia could be drawn upon too. With Bohemia, the Habsburgs should be able to get the princes to agree to pretty much anything.
There's lots of opportunity for the Habsburgs to interfere. In Hungary, Poland, France, Italy, the Byzantine Empire, ect but at the end of the day I think they would concentrate on the German part of the HRE since its the lowest hanging fruit. They would be in a supreme position with no real competitors.

@Elfwine @Janprimus you're probably right and the Habsburgs did miss the window of opportunity to get Holland but perhaps they could get lucky as Louis IV was by marrying Margaret of Avesnes and thus inheriting much of the low countries. Maybe not because of butterflies but with the title of Emperor being made hereditary, the power base of the Habsburgs would only grow over time as other houses die out and other princes rise up against Habsburg rule and get their land confiscated. By the end of the late middle ages, we might see a fairly centralized HRE.

 

[hirsch91]

Sorry for replying so late. I forgot about the thread but recently I thought about the PoD again until I rememered I made a thread about it.

 

[Nuraghe]

PoD is 1) Albert I of Habsburg being successful in taking the Counties of Holland and Zeeland for the Habsburgs following John of Hollands death as he planned IOTL and more importantly 2) his son Rudolph surviving as King of Bohemia.

What happens next?

then I believe that to understand which of the two PODs are useful to the Habsburgs, we need to see what brought them into that situation, so we need to go back to 1282 when Rudolf I, with the approval of the princes, invested his sons Albert and Rudolph with the fiefdoms of Austria, Styria, Carniola and the Vindica March, at the same time elevating them to the rank of imperial princes. Previously, in 1276, Rudolf had convinced some ecclesiastical princes to cede some assets in that territory to his sons. With an ordinance of 1283 ( Rheinfelder Hausordnung ) Rudolph established that these territories would be entrusted solely to Albert and his heirs. His brother Rudolph would obtain compensation in exchange, in this way he had created the foundations of the future Habsburg power.

The attempt to ensure Albert's succession failed, because Rudolf was never crowned emperor. If he had succeeded in this aim, he could have ensured his son's election as king, even though, during the reign of Rudolf, there were 8 popes, and twice it was possible to establish a deadline for the coronation, this never took place, but apart from this "small" problem, Rudolf also had to deal with the effects caused by the great interregnum, inspired by the "Reichslandfrieden" of 1235, he decided to negotiate with the individual great feudal lords in the west and south of Germany, in particular in the Austrian Landfrieden (1) in 1276 and in the Bavarian ones , Rhenish and Frankish in 1281, but he also tried to establish order in more peripheral regions of the empire : see in 1289/90, in Thuringia, where he had 66 castles that housed knights who had turned to brigandage demolished, turning west, in 1281 he forced Count Philip I of Savoy to cede some territories to him, then forced the citizens of Bern to pay the tribute they had refused

This policy was especially successful in the territories close to Rudolf's base of power, or in the southern regions of the Reich, on the contrary, in the more distant areas, although it tried, with the help of allies, to recover imperial assets and to guarantee the rights of the cities , did not achieve significant results, finally his attempt to secure control of Burgundy was short-lived, as his successors were unable to maintain Burgundy in the face of the aggressive expansionist policy practiced by the French monarchy towards the empire, finally fearing that the Habsburgs would become too strong, the princes chose Adolf of Nassau over his son Albert I upon his death ( which will be further emphasized later with his grip on Bohemia and attempts to impose centralized control in Germany, which was frowned upon by the princes )

upon the death of Rudolf and then of his son of the same name, Albert found himself ruling over the two duchies of Austria and Styria, but he soon aroused widespread discontent among his new nobility, due to his policy of sidelining local families and replacing them with Swabian nobles linked to him, especially the counts of Wallsee. The first revolts took place in Styria, in 1291, and in 1295 it was the Austrian nobility who revolted. Even in Vienna, Ottokar Přemysl was preferred to Albert for a long time, also due to his substantial commercial relations with the Bohemian area

finally after having temporarily resolved the issues in his possessions, Albert, seeking the help of the imperial princes to form a of a coalition against Adolf, in the end he succeeded and succeeded him in 1298 ( the dispute ended in the battle of Göllheim ) finally thanks to marital relations with France, Albert managed to stipulate a peace treaty with Philip IV the Fair, with the which was in conflict over border issues

after having forced the archbishops and the Count Palatine of the Rhine to capitulate on customs duties, he found himself in conflict with Pope Boniface VIII since the latter was against the dissolution of the college of princes, papal recognition came only in 1303, in exchange for important concessions that severely limited imperial authority ( especially in Italy, but which were only the confirmation of the concessions made by his father 30 years ago to obtain the support of Rome )

as well as quarreling with the future HRE Ludwig IV over the Lower Bavarian possessions in 1307

he also obtained a sensational stroke of luck when he managed to place his son on the Bohemian throne upon the death of Wenceslas III, but the Bohemian nobility immediately rebelled and decided to overthrow him, Albert soon forced them to recognize the new king, who however, during the war companion, died of typhus, frustrating her father's efforts, like his father Rudolf I , he tried to make imperial power felt also in the northern areas of the empire, with mixed successes, in the end he died while he was engaged in a controversy in Thuringia

after this brief summary regarding the reigns of Rudolph and Albert of Habsburg, there are some considerations to be made on the subject, the first concerns how the two sovereigns tried to rebuild imperial power in Germany, the second concerns the concessions they made to the papacy over Italy, , so let's start from the first point, that is, how the Habsburgs tried to deal with the political division in the empire that was formed by the clashes between the Guelph and Ghibelline parties, in fact there was a strong fracture between the part of the Frankish culture origin with important interests in Italy and in the French-speaking part of the empire, to the detriment there were the regions of Saxon origin who disapproved of this transfer of power, away from their control and which made them lose interest in continuing to support the eastward expansion against the Slavs and strengthening the ties with Denmark and above all with England ( from their point of view ) in particular they poorly tolerated the imperial policies of weakening the princes ( which affected them the most, given that they were the nobles with the greatest accumulation of dominions in the Reich ), therefore for recap what we have here : two totally opposing political currents, divergent cultural and economic ties, existing dynastic conflicts plus the struggle between papacy and empire ( allowing the nobles and popes to make common cause against the over-exaggerated ambitions of the Emperors ) well in the chaos resulting from the long imperial interregnum which did not see an Emperor truly recognized as such until 1307 ( also due to strokes of bad luck or stupid family feuds, following the temporary failure of the Habsburg dynastic policy ) the central government in the Reich was tremendously diminished ( also due to the continuous practice of selling possessions of the imperial state property to loyal nobles ) this combined with the ongoing dynastic wars ( between the Wittelsbachs, the Luxembourgers, the Habsburgs and in the background the Welfs ) so to better explain myself, we find ourselves dealing a conflict to two regions themselves ( with their components, who, depending on the circumstances, preferred one policy over the other ) clear example : the Wettins who in all this mess were aligned with the "Saxon party" while Lorraine tended to be more towards the opposite side, the same thing goes for the clergy ( who in this he skillfully played the two sides against each other to gain favor and weaken the central authority of Rome over them ) or even the imperial cities which were secretly supporters of the "Franco-Roman" government against the tendencies of the nobility of Saxon origin to subject the cities to their total control ( see in fact that in the eastern part of the Reich free imperial cities do not exist, just as there are not even large agglomerations of ecclesiastical territory vaguely similar in size to Trier, Mainz etc ) funny curiosity, this "division" almost follows the one created two centuries later, with the advent of the Reform, see it as a symptom, which allows us to understand how far the direct power of the Emperor can more or less reach, which then led to the creation of the Golden Bull and the officialization of the Electors ( who in practice had to represent the " imperial power " in their territories, and if known faithfully followed this clear difference of ideas in the Empire, but which in reality were the Emperor's recognition that he could not exercise his power in certain areas without having the consent of the local elites (2)

then if it can resist a coalition of princes ( probably supported by France, because the Habsburgs would now pose a serious threat ) against it, Albert will have to work hard to consolidate his disparate territories and support Rudolph's government in Bohemia, surely the step next is to try to re-establish some semblance of royal authority in Italy ( because only the coronation can guarantee some security in the succession of his son to the role of Rex Romanorum ), in particular it will be useful to maintain good relations with the papacy ( but seeing as Albert had sided with Boniface against Philip it shouldn't be too difficult, at least at first, this could already change or annul the Avignon captivity of the Papacy as well as the fate of the Templar Order ( which here could very well be merged with the Hospitallers, given that it was one of the many ideas that circulated on what to do with them ) in finally to get an idea of what to expect on the peninsula, it is enough to look at the last truly important campaign in Italy Otl, carried out by an Emperor to regain control of it ( obviously before Charles V ), i.e. that of Henry VII, who managed to subjugate a good part of Guelph Tuscany, install two imperial vicars in important positions ( the Viscontis in Milan and Casalgrande in Verona ) and actively intervene in the politics of the municipalities to calm the fights between opposing factions and managed to face the influence of Naples in the north of the peninsula in support of the Guelphs, with good results


therefore in conclusion I do not see the Habsburgs completely canceling and subjugating the princes of the empire but rather as their Otl successors did, choosing those placed in strategic places of the Reich ( mainly I imagine that they choose them in places where the direct influence of the imperial office is weak, although I believe that there may be fewer of them than the 7 of Otl and more geographically spread out ) and raise them in a possible Golden Bull, their policy with the free cities and Italian municipalities will be interesting instead ( which are still a fundamental part of the empire, because it is good to remember, the part of the title of the HRE "of the Germanic nation "was added only by Maximilian after he realized that there could be no direct power in the peninsula )



1) was a legal system, which was based on an agreement which sanctioned the renunciation, by the lord of a territory, of the exercise of the use of force to assert his rights: this affected first of all the right to conduct feuds.
Being contractual in nature, a Landfrieden had a limited duration and territorial scope



2 ) this is further revealed if we look at the Italian reactions to the proposals of a Golden Bull by Charles IV, which were mainly of happiness, hope and then disappointment ( once they saw the final result ) because they thought that this idea could very well adapt also for the Italian situation, many eminent Italian writers and politicians hoped for the inclusion of an Italian representative ( who could establish and take advantage of imperial laws and privileges without having to constantly request the intervention of the Emperor on the peninsula and his stay there for long periods, so much so that he didn't even have to anger the papacy, especially after the long stay of Henrich VII and Ludwig IV in Rome itself, in the political thought of the time it was a good way to allow having a representative who exercised the power of the Emperor by proxy but who was also capable of orienting himself in Italian politics without depending on the support of German resources, but who also allowed him to have his say on the choice of the future sovereign, in fact there were many who pushed for a review of the law in the decades following it ( in particular under Sigismund and in the first years of Maximilian ) but also previous ones ( just think that Ludwig IV played with the idea of making a similar reform, but also including the peninsula in the process ( some historians even say that he wanted to include not a noble family but a city state ), as it is known that the policy of favoring the imperial cities over the princes that the Habsburgs were known to use in Germany, in Italy it would have been potentially good for recovering lost political ground and influence, potentially putting the cities in competition with each other

 

[Elfwine]

Well the Habsburgs were pretty dominant for like 2 years until Rudolf died and everything came crumbling down. They occuppied the 4 Rhine electorates and rendered them harmless. They were allied to Saxony and Brandenburg was being kept busy by Pomerania and Denmark. The rulers of lower Bavaria and the Burgrave of Nuremberg were also in their sphere. The Habsburgs were in a much better position in those 2 short years than the Hohenstaufens ever were. There weren't many big players who could have opposed them within the Empire other than perhaps the Luxembourgs though whether they would risk war on 2 fronts against both the Habsburgs and the French to preserve the electoral system is doubtful.

I broadly agree with Nuraghe here:

therefore in conclusion I do not see the Habsburgs completely canceling and subjugating the princes of the empire but rather as their Otl successors did, choosing those placed in strategic places of the Reich ( mainly I imagine that they choose them in places where the direct influence of the imperial office is weak, although I believe that there may be fewer of them than the 7 of Otl and more geographically spread out ) and raise them in a possible Golden Bull, their policy with the free cities and Italian municipalities will be interesting instead ( which are still a fundamental part of the empire, because it is good to remember, the part of the title of the HRE "of the Germanic nation "was added only by Maximilian after he realized that there could be no direct power in the peninsula )

 

[Nuraghe]

then I believe that to understand which of the two PODs are useful to the Habsburgs, we need to see what brought them into that situation, so we need to go back to 1282 when Rudolf I, with the approval of the princes, invested his sons Albert and Rudolph with the fiefdoms of Austria, Styria, Carniola and the Vindica March, at the same time elevating them to the rank of imperial princes. Previously, in 1276, Rudolf had convinced some ecclesiastical princes to cede some assets in that territory to his sons. With an ordinance of 1283 ( Rheinfelder Hausordnung ) Rudolph established that these territories would be entrusted solely to Albert and his heirs. His brother Rudolph would obtain compensation in exchange, in this way he had created the foundations of the future Habsburg power.

The attempt to ensure Albert's succession failed, because Rudolf was never crowned emperor. If he had succeeded in this aim, he could have ensured his son's election as king, even though, during the reign of Rudolf, there were 8 popes, and twice it was possible to establish a deadline for the coronation, this never took place, but apart from this "small" problem, Rudolf also had to deal with the effects caused by the great interregnum, inspired by the "Reichslandfrieden" of 1235, he decided to negotiate with the individual great feudal lords in the west and south of Germany, in particular in the Austrian Landfrieden (1) in 1276 and in the Bavarian ones , Rhenish and Frankish in 1281, but he also tried to establish order in more peripheral regions of the empire : see in 1289/90, in Thuringia, where he had 66 castles that housed knights who had turned to brigandage demolished, turning west, in 1281 he forced Count Philip I of Savoy to cede some territories to him, then forced the citizens of Bern to pay the tribute they had refused

This policy was especially successful in the territories close to Rudolf's base of power, or in the southern regions of the Reich, on the contrary, in the more distant areas, although it tried, with the help of allies, to recover imperial assets and to guarantee the rights of the cities , did not achieve significant results, finally his attempt to secure control of Burgundy was short-lived, as his successors were unable to maintain Burgundy in the face of the aggressive expansionist policy practiced by the French monarchy towards the empire, finally fearing that the Habsburgs would become too strong, the princes chose Adolf of Nassau over his son Albert I upon his death ( which will be further emphasized later with his grip on Bohemia and attempts to impose centralized control in Germany, which was frowned upon by the princes )

upon the death of Rudolf and then of his son of the same name, Albert found himself ruling over the two duchies of Austria and Styria, but he soon aroused widespread discontent among his new nobility, due to his policy of sidelining local families and replacing them with Swabian nobles linked to him, especially the counts of Wallsee. The first revolts took place in Styria, in 1291, and in 1295 it was the Austrian nobility who revolted. Even in Vienna, Ottokar Přemysl was preferred to Albert for a long time, also due to his substantial commercial relations with the Bohemian area

finally after having temporarily resolved the issues in his possessions, Albert, seeking the help of the imperial princes to form a of a coalition against Adolf, in the end he succeeded and succeeded him in 1298 ( the dispute ended in the battle of Göllheim ) finally thanks to marital relations with France, Albert managed to stipulate a peace treaty with Philip IV the Fair, with the which was in conflict over border issues

after having forced the archbishops and the Count Palatine of the Rhine to capitulate on customs duties, he found himself in conflict with Pope Boniface VIII since the latter was against the dissolution of the college of princes, papal recognition came only in 1303, in exchange for important concessions that severely limited imperial authority ( especially in Italy, but which were only the confirmation of the concessions made by his father 30 years ago to obtain the support of Rome )

as well as quarreling with the future HRE Ludwig IV over the Lower Bavarian possessions in 1307

he also obtained a sensational stroke of luck when he managed to place his son on the Bohemian throne upon the death of Wenceslas III, but the Bohemian nobility immediately rebelled and decided to overthrow him, Albert soon forced them to recognize the new king, who however, during the war companion, died of typhus, frustrating her father's efforts, like his father Rudolf I , he tried to make imperial power felt also in the northern areas of the empire, with mixed successes, in the end he died while he was engaged in a controversy in Thuringia

after this brief summary regarding the reigns of Rudolph and Albert of Habsburg, there are some considerations to be made on the subject, the first concerns how the two sovereigns tried to rebuild imperial power in Germany, the second concerns the concessions they made to the papacy over Italy, , so let's start from the first point, that is, how the Habsburgs tried to deal with the political division in the empire that was formed by the clashes between the Guelph and Ghibelline parties, in fact there was a strong fracture between the part of the Frankish culture origin with important interests in Italy and in the French-speaking part of the empire, to the detriment there were the regions of Saxon origin who disapproved of this transfer of power, away from their control and which made them lose interest in continuing to support the eastward expansion against the Slavs and strengthening the ties with Denmark and above all with England ( from their point of view ) in particular they poorly tolerated the imperial policies of weakening the princes ( which affected them the most, given that they were the nobles with the greatest accumulation of dominions in the Reich ), therefore for recap what we have here : two totally opposing political currents, divergent cultural and economic ties, existing dynastic conflicts plus the struggle between papacy and empire ( allowing the nobles and popes to make common cause against the over-exaggerated ambitions of the Emperors ) well in the chaos resulting from the long imperial interregnum which did not see an Emperor truly recognized as such until 1307 ( also due to strokes of bad luck or stupid family feuds, following the temporary failure of the Habsburg dynastic policy ) the central government in the Reich was tremendously diminished ( also due to the continuous practice of selling possessions of the imperial state property to loyal nobles ) this combined with the ongoing dynastic wars ( between the Wittelsbachs, the Luxembourgers, the Habsburgs and in the background the Welfs ) so to better explain myself, we find ourselves dealing a conflict to two regions themselves ( with their components, who, depending on the circumstances, preferred one policy over the other ) clear example : the Wettins who in all this mess were aligned with the "Saxon party" while Lorraine tended to be more towards the opposite side, the same thing goes for the clergy ( who in this he skillfully played the two sides against each other to gain favor and weaken the central authority of Rome over them ) or even the imperial cities which were secretly supporters of the "Franco-Roman" government against the tendencies of the nobility of Saxon origin to subject the cities to their total control ( see in fact that in the eastern part of the Reich free imperial cities do not exist, just as there are not even large agglomerations of ecclesiastical territory vaguely similar in size to Trier, Mainz etc ) funny curiosity, this "division" almost follows the one created two centuries later, with the advent of the Reform, see it as a symptom, which allows us to understand how far the direct power of the Emperor can more or less reach, which then led to the creation of the Golden Bull and the officialization of the Electors ( who in practice had to represent the " imperial power " in their territories, and if known faithfully followed this clear difference of ideas in the Empire, but which in reality were the Emperor's recognition that he could not exercise his power in certain areas without having the consent of the local elites (2)

then if it can resist a coalition of princes ( probably supported by France, because the Habsburgs would now pose a serious threat ) against it, Albert will have to work hard to consolidate his disparate territories and support Rudolph's government in Bohemia, surely the step next is to try to re-establish some semblance of royal authority in Italy ( because only the coronation can guarantee some security in the succession of his son to the role of Rex Romanorum ), in particular it will be useful to maintain good relations with the papacy ( but seeing as Albert had sided with Boniface against Philip it shouldn't be too difficult, at least at first, this could already change or annul the Avignon captivity of the Papacy as well as the fate of the Templar Order ( which here could very well be merged with the Hospitallers, given that it was one of the many ideas that circulated on what to do with them ) in finally to get an idea of what to expect on the peninsula, it is enough to look at the last truly important campaign in Italy Otl, carried out by an Emperor to regain control of it ( obviously before Charles V ), i.e. that of Henry VII, who managed to subjugate a good part of Guelph Tuscany, install two imperial vicars in important positions ( the Viscontis in Milan and Casalgrande in Verona ) and actively intervene in the politics of the municipalities to calm the fights between opposing factions and managed to face the influence of Naples in the north of the peninsula in support of the Guelphs, with good results


therefore in conclusion I do not see the Habsburgs completely canceling and subjugating the princes of the empire but rather as their Otl successors did, choosing those placed in strategic places of the Reich ( mainly I imagine that they choose them in places where the direct influence of the imperial office is weak, although I believe that there may be fewer of them than the 7 of Otl and more geographically spread out ) and raise them in a possible Golden Bull, their policy with the free cities and Italian municipalities will be interesting instead ( which are still a fundamental part of the empire, because it is good to remember, the part of the title of the HRE "of the Germanic nation "was added only by Maximilian after he realized that there could be no direct power in the peninsula )



1) was a legal system, which was based on an agreement which sanctioned the renunciation, by the lord of a territory, of the exercise of the use of force to assert his rights: this affected first of all the right to conduct feuds.
Being contractual in nature, a Landfrieden had a limited duration and territorial scope



2 ) this is further revealed if we look at the Italian reactions to the proposals of a Golden Bull by Charles IV, which were mainly of happiness, hope and then disappointment ( once they saw the final result ) because they thought that this idea could very well adapt also for the Italian situation, many eminent Italian writers and politicians hoped for the inclusion of an Italian representative ( who could establish and take advantage of imperial laws and privileges without having to constantly request the intervention of the Emperor on the peninsula and his stay there for long periods, so much so that he didn't even have to anger the papacy, especially after the long stay of Henrich VII and Ludwig IV in Rome itself, in the political thought of the time it was a good way to allow having a representative who exercised the power of the Emperor by proxy but who was also capable of orienting himself in Italian politics without depending on the support of German resources, but who also allowed him to have his say on the choice of the future sovereign, in fact there were many who pushed for a review of the law in the decades following it ( in particular under Sigismund and in the first years of Maximilian ) but also previous ones ( just think that Ludwig IV played with the idea of making a similar reform, but also including the peninsula in the process ( some historians even say that he wanted to include not a noble family but a city state ), as it is known that the policy of favoring the imperial cities over the princes that the Habsburgs were known to use in Germany, in Italy it would have been potentially good for recovering lost political ground and influence, potentially putting the cities in competition with each other

in addition to this it is very probable that the Habsburgs will end up continuing the policy of effectively concentrating on the southern part of the Empire ( i.e. the one where they have greater direct control, more important from a logistical and commercial point of view ( given the obvious connection with Italy and the Mediterranean and the presence of multiple less cohesive but economically and politically important political entities but quite exposed to possible foreign occupations (e.g. France ) and obviously where their base of power ) for the rest I think that they will proceed to create political ties in the north of the Reich and in Italy, with the aim of consolidating more or less solid alliances, for using this said places as a means of indirect influence of the imperial power in the case the direct presence of the sovereign was not enough, perhaps legalizing everything with a bull ( which unlike Otl, does not focus solely on the German kingdom alone, but also includes Burgundy / Arles and Italy in the system ) if everything were to work ( it doesn't necessarily work out perfectly ) we would find ourselves faced with a vaguely centralized state, with a more or less developing administration, without a clear prevailing nationality ( since technically the emperor would have a greater claim of Otl not to define itself with a very specific ethnicity, as well as the fact that a greater ( and continuous ) presence of Italy in the internal affairs of the state will transform the elective system into one more representative of the many actors and interests of the Empire, as well as preventing the formation of the common thought Otl, that the wars in Italy concerned only the Emperor and that's it, they did not require the intervention of the empire itself ( a very common idea from Sigismund onwards, which under the Habsburgs Otl became almost a consolidated thing, even if the first ones tried in every way to prove the opposite )

 

[Arkenfolm]

Someone brought this up in another thread, before January 1303 the Crusaders are launching attacks on the Levant in tandem with a highly successful (to that point) Ilkhanate offensive that took most of modern Syria and sent raiders as far as the gates of Jerusalem. Crusading in northern Europe was still popular and just a few years later the Crusade of the Poor sent tens of thousands of men from the Holy Roman Empire to the gates of Avignon to seek the Pope's blessing to go on an actual crusade. Would it make sense for Albert legitimise (only a few nobles were involved, hence the OTL name) and back this crusade in exchange for concessions from the Pope? Crusading was still a very popular concept in Europe at the time.

 

[hirsch91]

then I believe that to understand which of the two PODs are useful to the Habsburgs, we need to see what brought them into that situation, so we need to go back to 1282 when Rudolf I, with the approval of the princes, invested his sons Albert and Rudolph with the fiefdoms of Austria, Styria, Carniola and the Vindica March, at the same time elevating them to the rank of imperial princes. Previously, in 1276, Rudolf had convinced some ecclesiastical princes to cede some assets in that territory to his sons. With an ordinance of 1283 ( Rheinfelder Hausordnung ) Rudolph established that these territories would be entrusted solely to Albert and his heirs. His brother Rudolph would obtain compensation in exchange, in this way he had created the foundations of the future Habsburg power.

The attempt to ensure Albert's succession failed, because Rudolf was never crowned emperor. If he had succeeded in this aim, he could have ensured his son's election as king, even though, during the reign of Rudolf, there were 8 popes, and twice it was possible to establish a deadline for the coronation, this never took place, but apart from this "small" problem, Rudolf also had to deal with the effects caused by the great interregnum, inspired by the "Reichslandfrieden" of 1235, he decided to negotiate with the individual great feudal lords in the west and south of Germany, in particular in the Austrian Landfrieden (1) in 1276 and in the Bavarian ones , Rhenish and Frankish in 1281, but he also tried to establish order in more peripheral regions of the empire : see in 1289/90, in Thuringia, where he had 66 castles that housed knights who had turned to brigandage demolished, turning west, in 1281 he forced Count Philip I of Savoy to cede some territories to him, then forced the citizens of Bern to pay the tribute they had refused

This policy was especially successful in the territories close to Rudolf's base of power, or in the southern regions of the Reich, on the contrary, in the more distant areas, although it tried, with the help of allies, to recover imperial assets and to guarantee the rights of the cities , did not achieve significant results, finally his attempt to secure control of Burgundy was short-lived, as his successors were unable to maintain Burgundy in the face of the aggressive expansionist policy practiced by the French monarchy towards the empire, finally fearing that the Habsburgs would become too strong, the princes chose Adolf of Nassau over his son Albert I upon his death ( which will be further emphasized later with his grip on Bohemia and attempts to impose centralized control in Germany, which was frowned upon by the princes )

upon the death of Rudolf and then of his son of the same name, Albert found himself ruling over the two duchies of Austria and Styria, but he soon aroused widespread discontent among his new nobility, due to his policy of sidelining local families and replacing them with Swabian nobles linked to him, especially the counts of Wallsee. The first revolts took place in Styria, in 1291, and in 1295 it was the Austrian nobility who revolted. Even in Vienna, Ottokar Přemysl was preferred to Albert for a long time, also due to his substantial commercial relations with the Bohemian area

finally after having temporarily resolved the issues in his possessions, Albert, seeking the help of the imperial princes to form a of a coalition against Adolf, in the end he succeeded and succeeded him in 1298 ( the dispute ended in the battle of Göllheim ) finally thanks to marital relations with France, Albert managed to stipulate a peace treaty with Philip IV the Fair, with the which was in conflict over border issues

after having forced the archbishops and the Count Palatine of the Rhine to capitulate on customs duties, he found himself in conflict with Pope Boniface VIII since the latter was against the dissolution of the college of princes, papal recognition came only in 1303, in exchange for important concessions that severely limited imperial authority ( especially in Italy, but which were only the confirmation of the concessions made by his father 30 years ago to obtain the support of Rome )

as well as quarreling with the future HRE Ludwig IV over the Lower Bavarian possessions in 1307

he also obtained a sensational stroke of luck when he managed to place his son on the Bohemian throne upon the death of Wenceslas III, but the Bohemian nobility immediately rebelled and decided to overthrow him, Albert soon forced them to recognize the new king, who however, during the war companion, died of typhus, frustrating her father's efforts, like his father Rudolf I , he tried to make imperial power felt also in the northern areas of the empire, with mixed successes, in the end he died while he was engaged in a controversy in Thuringia

after this brief summary regarding the reigns of Rudolph and Albert of Habsburg, there are some considerations to be made on the subject, the first concerns how the two sovereigns tried to rebuild imperial power in Germany, the second concerns the concessions they made to the papacy over Italy, , so let's start from the first point, that is, how the Habsburgs tried to deal with the political division in the empire that was formed by the clashes between the Guelph and Ghibelline parties, in fact there was a strong fracture between the part of the Frankish culture origin with important interests in Italy and in the French-speaking part of the empire, to the detriment there were the regions of Saxon origin who disapproved of this transfer of power, away from their control and which made them lose interest in continuing to support the eastward expansion against the Slavs and strengthening the ties with Denmark and above all with England ( from their point of view ) in particular they poorly tolerated the imperial policies of weakening the princes ( which affected them the most, given that they were the nobles with the greatest accumulation of dominions in the Reich ), therefore for recap what we have here : two totally opposing political currents, divergent cultural and economic ties, existing dynastic conflicts plus the struggle between papacy and empire ( allowing the nobles and popes to make common cause against the over-exaggerated ambitions of the Emperors ) well in the chaos resulting from the long imperial interregnum which did not see an Emperor truly recognized as such until 1307 ( also due to strokes of bad luck or stupid family feuds, following the temporary failure of the Habsburg dynastic policy ) the central government in the Reich was tremendously diminished ( also due to the continuous practice of selling possessions of the imperial state property to loyal nobles ) this combined with the ongoing dynastic wars ( between the Wittelsbachs, the Luxembourgers, the Habsburgs and in the background the Welfs ) so to better explain myself, we find ourselves dealing a conflict to two regions themselves ( with their components, who, depending on the circumstances, preferred one policy over the other ) clear example : the Wettins who in all this mess were aligned with the "Saxon party" while Lorraine tended to be more towards the opposite side, the same thing goes for the clergy ( who in this he skillfully played the two sides against each other to gain favor and weaken the central authority of Rome over them ) or even the imperial cities which were secretly supporters of the "Franco-Roman" government against the tendencies of the nobility of Saxon origin to subject the cities to their total control ( see in fact that in the eastern part of the Reich free imperial cities do not exist, just as there are not even large agglomerations of ecclesiastical territory vaguely similar in size to Trier, Mainz etc ) funny curiosity, this "division" almost follows the one created two centuries later, with the advent of the Reform, see it as a symptom, which allows us to understand how far the direct power of the Emperor can more or less reach, which then led to the creation of the Golden Bull and the officialization of the Electors ( who in practice had to represent the " imperial power " in their territories, and if known faithfully followed this clear difference of ideas in the Empire, but which in reality were the Emperor's recognition that he could not exercise his power in certain areas without having the consent of the local elites (2)

then if it can resist a coalition of princes ( probably supported by France, because the Habsburgs would now pose a serious threat ) against it, Albert will have to work hard to consolidate his disparate territories and support Rudolph's government in Bohemia, surely the step next is to try to re-establish some semblance of royal authority in Italy ( because only the coronation can guarantee some security in the succession of his son to the role of Rex Romanorum ), in particular it will be useful to maintain good relations with the papacy ( but seeing as Albert had sided with Boniface against Philip it shouldn't be too difficult, at least at first, this could already change or annul the Avignon captivity of the Papacy as well as the fate of the Templar Order ( which here could very well be merged with the Hospitallers, given that it was one of the many ideas that circulated on what to do with them ) in finally to get an idea of what to expect on the peninsula, it is enough to look at the last truly important campaign in Italy Otl, carried out by an Emperor to regain control of it ( obviously before Charles V ), i.e. that of Henry VII, who managed to subjugate a good part of Guelph Tuscany, install two imperial vicars in important positions ( the Viscontis in Milan and Casalgrande in Verona ) and actively intervene in the politics of the municipalities to calm the fights between opposing factions and managed to face the influence of Naples in the north of the peninsula in support of the Guelphs, with good results


therefore in conclusion I do not see the Habsburgs completely canceling and subjugating the princes of the empire but rather as their Otl successors did, choosing those placed in strategic places of the Reich ( mainly I imagine that they choose them in places where the direct influence of the imperial office is weak, although I believe that there may be fewer of them than the 7 of Otl and more geographically spread out ) and raise them in a possible Golden Bull, their policy with the free cities and Italian municipalities will be interesting instead ( which are still a fundamental part of the empire, because it is good to remember, the part of the title of the HRE "of the Germanic nation "was added only by Maximilian after he realized that there could be no direct power in the peninsula )



1) was a legal system, which was based on an agreement which sanctioned the renunciation, by the lord of a territory, of the exercise of the use of force to assert his rights: this affected first of all the right to conduct feuds.
Being contractual in nature, a Landfrieden had a limited duration and territorial scope



2 ) this is further revealed if we look at the Italian reactions to the proposals of a Golden Bull by Charles IV, which were mainly of happiness, hope and then disappointment ( once they saw the final result ) because they thought that this idea could very well adapt also for the Italian situation, many eminent Italian writers and politicians hoped for the inclusion of an Italian representative ( who could establish and take advantage of imperial laws and privileges without having to constantly request the intervention of the Emperor on the peninsula and his stay there for long periods, so much so that he didn't even have to anger the papacy, especially after the long stay of Henrich VII and Ludwig IV in Rome itself, in the political thought of the time it was a good way to allow having a representative who exercised the power of the Emperor by proxy but who was also capable of orienting himself in Italian politics without depending on the support of German resources, but who also allowed him to have his say on the choice of the future sovereign, in fact there were many who pushed for a review of the law in the decades following it ( in particular under Sigismund and in the first years of Maximilian ) but also previous ones ( just think that Ludwig IV played with the idea of making a similar reform, but also including the peninsula in the process ( some historians even say that he wanted to include not a noble family but a city state ), as it is known that the policy of favoring the imperial cities over the princes that the Habsburgs were known to use in Germany, in Italy it would have been potentially good for recovering lost political ground and influence, potentially putting the cities in competition with each other

So you don't think the electoral system would be abolished outright or at least it would not do service the Habsburgs as much as one would assume? How else would the Habsburgs go about centralizing the HRE, if not by subduing the princes and making the title of Emperor hereditary? I don't quite see what that would do to wrest away power from the princes. The significant amount of freedoms princes had made Maximilian I politics almost fail as he had to constantly beg them for help in Italy and against the Ottomans. Later on the Habsburg candidates even had to sign capitulations that guranteed the princes rights or even expanded them in exchange for being elected.
I always presumed the North-South divide within the Empire when it comes to imperial reforms stems from the fact that the Habsburg Emperors never really had power projection up north but your theory makes a whole lot of sense. Fragmenting the territories of the northern princes and creating free cities and bishoprics at their expense is not an option? The Hanseatic cities up north certainly wouldn't have a problem with becoming independent from their princely overlords.

I was about to ask what Habsburg policy in imperial Italy would look like. I completely agree they would be a lot more active in imperial Italy. I don't know if working closely together with the Papacy will be possible as Pope Clements move of the papacy to Avignon was in part triggered by Emperor Henry being more assertive in northern Italy. Since Robert of Naples will interfere and sponsor the Guelphs as he did IOTL, they will inevitably have to move against Naples. Albert could marry his youngest son Otto to Elizabeth daugther of Frederick of Meissen, whose mom was a daughter of Frederick II Hohenstaufen, as some sort of compromise between the two and make the pair rule Naples thus creating a contigency line of Habsburgs should the ones in Germany go extinct. This would surely infuriate the Pope. Alberts successor Henry did almost go to war with Naples over them meddling in imperial Italy. Henry also had both the financial and military support of Frederick of Sicily. I don't think France would do much more than IOTL ie be mad but do nothing. While they did complain about it, they did nothing concrete to help Naples from the impending invasion of Henry VII. The Habsburgs would be down there with a larger army than Henry had at his disposal giving the whole operation a chance of success. Furthermore, given that Edward II supported Henrys posturing and that subsequent English rulers always vyied for an alliance with the HRE, an Anglo-Habsburg alliance might be on the table.

 

[Nuraghe]

So you don't think the electoral system would be abolished outright or at least it would not do service the Habsburgs as much as one would assume? How else would the Habsburgs go about centralizing the HRE, if not by subduing the princes and making the title of Emperor hereditary? I don't quite see what that would do to wrest away power from the princes. The significant amount of freedoms princes had made Maximilian I politics almost fail as he had to constantly beg them for help in Italy and against the Ottomans. Later on the Habsburg candidates even had to sign capitulations that guranteed the princes rights or even expanded them in exchange for being elected.
I always presumed the North-South divide within the Empire when it comes to imperial reforms stems from the fact that the Habsburg Emperors never really had power projection up north but your theory makes a whole lot of sense. Fragmenting the territories of the northern princes and creating free cities and bishoprics at their expense is not an option? The Hanseatic cities up north certainly wouldn't have a problem with becoming independent from their princely overlords.

I was about to ask what Habsburg policy in imperial Italy would look like. I completely agree they would be a lot more active in imperial Italy. I don't know if working closely together with the Papacy will be possible as Pope Clements move of the papacy to Avignon was in part triggered by Emperor Henry being more assertive in northern Italy. Since Robert of Naples will interfere and sponsor the Guelphs as he did IOTL, they will inevitably have to move against Naples. Albert could marry his youngest son Otto to Elizabeth daugther of Frederick of Meissen, whose mom was a daughter of Frederick II Hohenstaufen, as some sort of compromise between the two and make the pair rule Naples thus creating a contigency line of Habsburgs should the ones in Germany go extinct. This would surely infuriate the Pope. Alberts successor Henry did almost go to war with Naples over them meddling in imperial Italy. Henry also had both the financial and military support of Frederick of Sicily. I don't think France would do much more than IOTL ie be mad but do nothing. While they did complain about it, they did nothing concrete to help Naples from the impending invasion of Henry VII. The Habsburgs would be down there with a larger army than Henry had at his disposal giving the whole operation a chance of success. Furthermore, given that Edward II supported Henrys posturing and that subsequent English rulers always vyied for an alliance with the HRE, an Anglo-Habsburg alliance might be on the table.

so where to start, well the electoral system was born as we know it today in the HRE, only after almost 2 centuries of dynastic chaos resulting in a 3-way struggle for the throne, with in the end only the Habsburgs coming out on top from the 15th century onwards ( but if this is avoided from the start, then with the Habsburgs already widely considered the new imperial dynasty de facto and de jure in the early 1300s ( it would have been better if Rudolf I had actually managed to go down to Italy to be crowned, many of the problems by Albert Otl would have been toned down ) the Golden Bull can be seen as a way to centralize the state without having to defeat every existing imperial prince in battle to do so, just choose who to reward, and he will do it for you, even very willingly ( divide and conquer, it works quite well, furthermore, if one of the recognized Electors is the Emperor himself or his heir, it is difficult not to have a certain influence in making a decision progress, in the end the process will become almost as automatic as OTL ( capitulations excluded ) once the possible political machinations of the princes have been reduced, since it will be difficult to create anti-Kings as in the past, without contradicting the new constitution ( the Golden Bull ) and therefore being subject to imperial ban ( as traitors to the laws of the Reich ), and thwarted their aspirations ( since with the new law, the interest of the princes shifts from wanting to become possible Emperors immediately to first having to be recognized as Electors ( because otherwise their aspirations are nullified, as they could not have a solid base, which is not divided among the children, nor can they vote, so they are at a standstill ) certainly the division between the North and the South of the Reich was established long before the Habsburgs, it can be traced back to the disputed election of the Salians by the Saxon nobility who did not recognize them as the legitimate heirs of the Ottonians, which was then widened by the conflict between Welfs and Hohenstauffen ( and papacy ) in the following century, certainly in Italy the situation is complex, with various factions fighting each other, but Otl was exacerbated by the lack of the Pope, who in the peninsula held the role of arbiter, but considering the Pod ( set from 1301 onwards ) it is probable that the dispute between Pope Boniface and king Philip goes differently from the historical one, to finally try to take Naples under the control of the dynasty, it would be almost political suicide, especially if it could possibly destroy the good progress made with the Papacy and the imperial princes, in addition to the risk of a war with France ( which is related to the Anjou ), therefore it would be appropriate to temporarily destroy the power of Naples in northern Italy without drastically altering the balance of power in the area ( so as not to appear to be a potential threat to be destroyed immediately ), furthermore it is good to have a trusted ally in the territory ( with a solid enough basis to be able to assist the imperial government, here too the old Roman custom of divide and rule can work very well, in particular if the princes and above all the cities are convinced that the emperor sincerely wants to integrate them into the new reform of the imperial government, pitting them against each other, with the aim of defending the few imperial state property possessions remaining in the peninsula and seeing who would be the right choice to represent the sovereign at a local level, there would certainly be very advantaged candidates in this competition, such as Milan, or a maritime republic such as Pisa and Genoa, two very faithful bastions of the Ghibelline faction, especially the first, or you can always take the Otl road of Henry Vii who was building a new city in the heart of Guelph Tuscany, which was to represent the imperial power in the region and which was well connected to the other Ghibelline cities ( Pisa, Verona and Milan first, and foremost followed by Monferrato )



furthermore we must keep in mind that the empire covers a very vast territory, which goes from the Baltic Sea to the north, up to the Mediterranean and the Adriatic to the south, all with the Alps in the middle ( without forgetting the borders with France and those where the princes push to continue the expansion of the HRE to the East, process known as Ostsiedlung, which Otl came to an abrupt halt due to the plague ) is an immense and extremely difficult set of territories to govern/administer by a single person or a small entourage, this is where these ATL Electoral princes can come to help

 

[Nuraghe]

so where to start, well the electoral system was born as we know it today in the HRE, only after almost 2 centuries of dynastic chaos resulting in a 3-way struggle for the throne, with in the end only the Habsburgs coming out on top from the 15th century onwards ( but if this is avoided from the start, then with the Habsburgs already widely considered the new imperial dynasty de facto and de jure in the early 1300s ( it would have been better if Rudolf I had actually managed to go down to Italy to be crowned, many of the problems by Albert Otl would have been toned down ) the Golden Bull can be seen as a way to centralize the state without having to defeat every existing imperial prince in battle to do so, just choose who to reward, and he will do it for you, even very willingly ( divide and conquer, it works quite well, furthermore, if one of the recognized Electors is the Emperor himself or his heir, it is difficult not to have a certain influence in making a decision progress, in the end the process will become almost as automatic as OTL ( capitulations excluded ) once the possible political machinations of the princes have been reduced, since it will be difficult to create anti-Kings as in the past, without contradicting the new constitution ( the Golden Bull ) and therefore being subject to imperial ban ( as traitors to the laws of the Reich ), and thwarted their aspirations ( since with the new law, the interest of the princes shifts from wanting to become possible Emperors immediately to first having to be recognized as Electors ( because otherwise their aspirations are nullified, as they could not have a solid base, which is not divided among the children, nor can they vote, so they are at a standstill ) certainly the division between the North and the South of the Reich was established long before the Habsburgs, it can be traced back to the disputed election of the Salians by the Saxon nobility who did not recognize them as the legitimate heirs of the Ottonians, which was then widened by the conflict between Welfs and Hohenstauffen ( and papacy ) in the following century, certainly in Italy the situation is complex, with various factions fighting each other, but Otl was exacerbated by the lack of the Pope, who in the peninsula held the role of arbiter, but considering the Pod ( set from 1301 onwards ) it is probable that the dispute between Pope Boniface and king Philip goes differently from the historical one, to finally try to take Naples under the control of the dynasty, it would be almost political suicide, especially if it could possibly destroy the good progress made with the Papacy and the imperial princes, in addition to the risk of a war with France ( which is related to the Anjou ), therefore it would be appropriate to temporarily destroy the power of Naples in northern Italy without drastically altering the balance of power in the area ( so as not to appear to be a potential threat to be destroyed immediately ), furthermore it is good to have a trusted ally in the territory ( with a solid enough basis to be able to assist the imperial government, here too the old Roman custom of divide and rule can work very well, in particular if the princes and above all the cities are convinced that the emperor sincerely wants to integrate them into the new reform of the imperial government, pitting them against each other, with the aim of defending the few imperial state property possessions remaining in the peninsula and seeing who would be the right choice to represent the sovereign at a local level, there would certainly be very advantaged candidates in this competition, such as Milan, or a maritime republic such as Pisa and Genoa, two very faithful bastions of the Ghibelline faction, especially the first, or you can always take the Otl road of Henry Vii who was building a new city in the heart of Guelph Tuscany, which was to represent the imperial power in the region and which was well connected to the other Ghibelline cities ( Pisa, Verona and Milan first, and foremost followed by Monferrato )



furthermore we must keep in mind that the empire covers a very vast territory, which goes from the Baltic Sea to the north, up to the Mediterranean and the Adriatic to the south, all with the Alps in the middle ( without forgetting the borders with France and those where the princes push to continue the expansion of the HRE to the East, process known as Ostsiedlung, which Otl came to an abrupt halt due to the plague ) is an immense and extremely difficult set of territories to govern/administer by a single person or a small entourage, this is where these ATL Electoral princes can come to help

Finally, I would like to point out that it is highly probable that if the Habsburgs end up being recognized as Emperors with a certain continuity, it is almost certain that they would have preserved what remains of the imperial state property unlike Otl where it was used as a bargaining chip to obtain support of the princes by the various dynasties fighting for the throne, this is an important factor to consider because it means that the Emperor has an additional power base ( in addition to his personal domains ) that he can exploit to impose the necessary administrative reforms ( while remaining of my opinion that some form of constituency will be created )

In the meantime I would like to call @Kellan Sullivan ( to hear your opinion on the matter )

 

[Andristan]

This would also butterfly away the Swiss League, seeing as a more successful Habsburg line of Emperors could call more troops to put down any rebellions in their swiss lands. This could enable the Habsburgs to kinda make the entire Alps their personal domain, what with Austria, Styria, parts of Switzerland, and Tyrol already in their possession.

 

[Nuraghe]

This would also butterfly away the Swiss League, seeing as a more successful Habsburg line of Emperors could call more troops to put down any rebellions in their swiss lands. This could enable the Habsburgs to kinda make the entire Alps their personal domain, what with Austria, Styria, parts of Switzerland, and Tyrol already in their possession.

technically the Habsburgs progressively took control in that area due to the concepts made by their rivals to the cantons ( which were still part of the Duchy of Swabia ) , as well as the military support they received in case of war against the Austrians ( in particular one must look at the reigns of the Emperors of the Wittelsbach and Luxembourg families Otl ) but since the Habsburgs are quite solid in power, this problem would be significantly reduced, allowing the latter to be able to govern almost all of the south of today's Germany ( including some parts belonging to Bavaria Otl ) and pieces of today's Switzerland ( after all, the Habsburgs maintained some territories in those areas until the Napoleonic wars, well beyond the stories about Wilhelm Tell )

 

[Nuraghe]

technically the Habsburgs progressively took control in that area due to the concepts made by their rivals to the cantons ( which were still part of the Duchy of Swabia ) , as well as the military support they received in case of war against the Austrians ( in particular one must look at the reigns of the Emperors of the Wittelsbach and Luxembourg families Otl ) but since the Habsburgs are quite solid in power, this problem would be significantly reduced, allowing the latter to be able to govern almost all of the south of today's Germany ( including some parts belonging to Bavaria Otl ) and pieces of today's Switzerland ( after all, the Habsburgs maintained some territories in those areas until the Napoleonic wars, well beyond the stories about Wilhelm Tell )

in fact I go further and try to imagine where it would be more useful for the Habsburgs to have allies as their Electors, mainly they would be homogeneously divided throughout the Empire, and they would represent the states / Kingdoms that compose it ( so in order Germany, Burgundy , Italy and finally Bohemia ), so I think the most probable would be: for Germany certainly Saxony ( which could be either the territory that became Hanover Otl or the Saxony that we all know, the main exponent of the "northern" faction (1), a follow the Palatinate ( which represents the Frankish party in the Reich ), for the kingdom of Burgundy / Arelate perhaps Lorraine or Flanders or Luxembourg or the duchy of the same name ( it depends on how the Habsburgs imagine who can offer them greater utility ), we will certainly find the kingdom of Bohemia ( possibly in Habsburg hands ) while for Italy the game is literally open ( but I'm inclined towards Milan ) , as are the ecclesiastical representatives, if we exclude Mainz ( because it is not certain that Cologne and Trier can be included a priori without some form of competition )



1 ) I cannot exclude that the Habsburgs might think of giving non-contiguous dominions as a fief to this elector, or even some pieces of Otl Brandenburg

 

[Nuraghe]

to conclude I would have one last consideration in this regard, with the political chaos within the Empire temporarily resolved for the most part, it is highly probable that the extra resources, which Otl were used in internal wars ( it is not certain that one thing similar does not happen entirely ) are exploited elsewhere, both in the West against France ( either for a purely territorial border issue or in defense of Rome ) and in Italy and the East, all this can also lead to an expansion of the territory of the HRE compared to Otl ( I'm not saying that there will be some huge change in the borders, rather something more contained ) as well as greater participation of the Germans in the crusading movement, Otl Albert had promised in the event of a successful imperial coronation, to organize a crusade to go and recover Acre from the Muslims, this in turn can significantly affect the show trial called by Philip IV of France against the Otl Templars, without forgetting the possible divergences that a more stable and " centralized " HRE, can cause in England, given that Otl Edward I was vaguely interested in what was happening in the Empire ( given his family ties with the Guelphs and in Savoy and Provence ) in particular he will be interested in mending relations with the new Emperor, due to having supported his rival Adolf of Nassau years earlier, and he too wanted to undertake a crusade in the Holy Land

 

[hirsch91]

in fact I go further and try to imagine where it would be more useful for the Habsburgs to have allies as their Electors, mainly they would be homogeneously divided throughout the Empire, and they would represent the states / Kingdoms that compose it ( so in order Germany, Burgundy , Italy and finally Bohemia ), so I think the most probable would be: for Germany certainly Saxony ( which could be either the territory that became Hanover Otl or the Saxony that we all know, the main exponent of the "northern" faction (1), a follow the Palatinate ( which represents the Frankish party in the Reich ), for the kingdom of Burgundy / Arelate perhaps Lorraine or Flanders or Luxembourg or the duchy of the same name ( it depends on how the Habsburgs imagine who can offer them greater utility ), we will certainly find the kingdom of Bohemia ( possibly in Habsburg hands ) while for Italy the game is literally open ( but I'm inclined towards Milan ) , as are the ecclesiastical representatives, if we exclude Mainz ( because it is not certain that Cologne and Trier can be included a priori without some form of competition )



1 ) I cannot exclude that the Habsburgs might think of giving non-contiguous dominions as a fief to this elector, or even some pieces of Otl Brandenburg

I see now. Imo the Habsburgs could have centralized the HRE if only they had a little more time. The reforms of Maximilian certainly could have gone a long way with more time and a better position. ITTL we might even see those reforms a lot earlier thus giving the Habsburgs time to iron out the flaws. But your approach is something else than the usual "German HRE" route people tend to go with the HRE centralization threads and I love it! The attention paid to branches such as the Kingdom of Arelat, Italy that were rather side lined IOTL makes this even better. Would this make Latin the lingua franca of the Empire? Would we see regional languages being ditched for some derivative of Latin as it was the case in Spain and France during their time under the Roman Empire? The decision not to abolish the electorates and but rather use them as executor of the Emperors will is quite intelligent and again the first time I've seen it in threads like these. As for the ecclesiastical electors, does there have to be more than one? Mainz or Cologne being the only ecclestiastical elector while also having an similar role the Archbishop of Canterbury has in Britain?

What do you think about the relations to Hungary? Right around this time the Hungarian throne is up for grabs. Do you think the Habsburgs will allow Charles of Anjou to get the throne thus enabling the Anjous to encircle the Habsburgs? If, for some reason, the Habsburgs manage to get Hungary, how do you think Hungarys wealth will fit into the Habsburgs power plans? Starting with the Anjou period, Hungary grew to become one of the largest gold and silver producers in the late middle ages. And the Anjous didn't fully squash resistance to their rule until the 1310s. Could that wealth be used to press ahead with reforms such as introducing a unified legal code based on Fredericks of Hohenstaufens Constitutions of Melfi in the lands ruled by the Habsburgs (not the entire HRE) regardless of resistance of local nobles just like Sigismund of Luxembourg planned to do? With Hungary and Bohemia under their belt, the Habsburgs could certainly try to press the claim on Poland as someone mentioned earlier. On the other hand, rather than using all those resources to expand even further, they could be used to stand equal footing with France in the inevitable conflicts over the Empires western borders.
If the Habsburgs manage to get the Hungarian throne, would Hungary join the Empire given that it would be more a multi cultural affair with presumably Latin as a language of administration?

If the Habsburgs cannot take Naples by force, could they do it by making it a dynastic goal much like how Aragon aimed to inherit Naples?
Where do you think would the imperial captial be? Aachen would be the obvious choice, however, it would be far from the Habsburg power base.
Do you think a HRE with less internal struggles would help to keep the Byzantines alive?

 

[Nuraghe]

I see now. Imo the Habsburgs could have centralized the HRE if only they had a little more time. The reforms of Maximilian certainly could have gone a long way with more time and a better position. ITTL we might even see those reforms a lot earlier thus giving the Habsburgs time to iron out the flaws. But your approach is something else than the usual "German HRE" route people tend to go with the HRE centralization threads and I love it! The attention paid to branches such as the Kingdom of Arelat, Italy that were rather side lined IOTL makes this even better. Would this make Latin the lingua franca of the Empire? Would we see regional languages being ditched for some derivative of Latin as it was the case in Spain and France during their time under the Roman Empire? The decision not to abolish the electorates and but rather use them as executor of the Emperors will is quite intelligent and again the first time I've seen it in threads like these. As for the ecclesiastical electors, does there have to be more than one? Mainz or Cologne being the only ecclestiastical elector while also having an similar role the Archbishop of Canterbury has in Britain?

What do you think about the relations to Hungary? Right around this time the Hungarian throne is up for grabs. Do you think the Habsburgs will allow Charles of Anjou to get the throne thus enabling the Anjous to encircle the Habsburgs? If, for some reason, the Habsburgs manage to get Hungary, how do you think Hungarys wealth will fit into the Habsburgs power plans? Starting with the Anjou period, Hungary grew to become one of the largest gold and silver producers in the late middle ages. And the Anjous didn't fully squash resistance to their rule until the 1310s. Could that wealth be used to press ahead with reforms such as introducing a unified legal code based on Fredericks of Hohenstaufens Constitutions of Melfi in the lands ruled by the Habsburgs (not the entire HRE) regardless of resistance of local nobles just like Sigismund of Luxembourg planned to do? With Hungary and Bohemia under their belt, the Habsburgs could certainly try to press the claim on Poland as someone mentioned earlier. On the other hand, rather than using all those resources to expand even further, they could be used to stand equal footing with France in the inevitable conflicts over the Empires western borders.
If the Habsburgs manage to get the Hungarian throne, would Hungary join the Empire given that it would be more a multi cultural affair with presumably Latin as a language of administration?

If the Habsburgs cannot take Naples by force, could they do it by making it a dynastic goal much like how Aragon aimed to inherit Naples?
Where do you think would the imperial captial be? Aachen would be the obvious choice, however, it would be far from the Habsburg power base.
Do you think a HRE with less internal struggles would help to keep the Byzantines alive?

I'm happy to hear that you like my idea for the centralization of the HRE, because I believe that most people, whether for simplicity or a small logical error, associate post Maximilian I HRE with Germany and therefore involuntarily carry this concept over the centuries precedents, when this it's a totally wrong, because until Max I, the Empire was supranational, and the Emperor's thought equally of the Italian side as of the German one ( see for example Frederick I Barbarossa who spent more than a third of his reign on the peninsula, about 12 years out of 25 in total ), the evolution of the title into HRE of the German nation, it was only that Maximilian a reluctantly he realized that he did not have the necessary means at his disposal to enforce the laws and his will in the peninsula, a feeling increased by the numerous Italian campaigns organized by him, almost all of them unsuccessful, so mine is an a posteriori reasoning, where if we start from the assumption that the Habsburgs have more time to consolidate their position in Germany it is natural that they then subsequently proceed to do the same in the other part of the HRE, in Italy, given that the most important crowns for them are connected to it ( the iron one of the kings of Italy and the Imperial one ), for the rest I think that Latin would remain the language par excellence of the empire, but it cannot be ruled out that the vernacular languages would become locally important at an administrative level over time, I certainly think that we can see Maximilian's reforms introduced sooner, I even think that they will be included in the famous ATL Golden Bull, certainly Hungary will be an interesting point for Habsburg expansion in the future, they will certainly do everything to prevent the Angios from obtaining it, in the event of a successful Habsburg takeover of Hungary the crown of Saint Stephen would be considered outside the Reich, but I believe that for now they will focus on the Empire, just consolidating their power and at the same time reducing that of the majority of the princes it will be a titanic undertaking ( without considering all the chaos arising from Italian political panorama ), well for the ecclesiastical representation in the group of voters, it certainly could be open to many differences compared to Otl, Mainz will certainly be there, its position it is quite central with respect to all 3 ( main ) kingdoms making up the Reich, but the same can be said of Cologne or Trier, here it would depend on the imperial will whether to include all 3 ecclesiastical cities or a smaller number, I believe that a more centralized HRE will be more useful against Turkish expansion to the detriment of the Byzantines, but it also depends on the relations between the two Roman Emperors, because a conflict between the two parties could not be completely ruled out, but I am convinced that it would a useful brake on Neapolitan ambitions in the Rhomanoi Balkans, especially since the Neapolitan kings will not be able to lose sight of their northern border with a stronger and more rooted HRE in Italy, for too long, because they could find themselves at risk of invasion, as regards the capital of the Reich, it would still be very itinerant at least until the 16th century, especially if we consider the overall size of the empire, but in addition to Aachen which would be the ceremonial capital, there would also be Vienna ( seat of Habsburg power ) and perhaps two others, representing Arelate and Italy ( well separated from the capitals of the electors ) probably Lyon ( where the coronation as king of Arles took place Otl ) while in Italy I doubt it would be Pavia ( too close to Milan ) so I would choose a city halfway between it and papal Rome ( other cultural/ honorary capital of the Reich ) possibly in Tuscany or Emilia


I apologize if the comment is not as tidy or precise as the others, but unfortunately I'm not at home these days