WI Canada retains CV capability?

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I love this timeline, except for one small thing.

I would love to see the demise of the "Canadian Forces" and the restoration of the Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Air Force joined by the Royal Canadian Marines.

While you are at it, how about making the Queen's York Rangers a regular unit as say..

The Queen's Rangers/Special Air Service (Rogers' Own) ? :)
 
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My thought was that the Nunavut discussions are taking place. As it will be a territory the Innuit would be holding out for a Innuit based regiment partly as a means of providing a national and cultural protection of their native lands. Some submarine patrols by Canadian vessels and NW passage escots could lead to a small boat navy based up there similar to OTL discussions. Either way...a random idea for you.

Those are good points, actually. Perhaps a 1st Canadian Inuit Battalion for Nunavut, based in Iqaluit, is on the cards. I'll have to integrate that. As far as smaller boats, I have icebreakers up there, perhaps I can deploy minesweepers or something of that nature too.

Nice to see and could be a good fit to the shipyard orders post frigate construction. Plus it's a less hostile military purchase so can be better supported by the peace-nik's crowd.

Kinda my thought too. The Canadian shipbuilding industry here is considerably larger and more active than in OTL, mostly based in the Maritimes. This is of course good for the economy of the region, which in many cases can use all the help it can get.

I used the Calgary Highlanders as they offered at one point to deploy a full company to Afghanistan if the whole company could go...this contridicted current manning practices of using reserve personnel and a portion of the company was sent as individuals instead. Bosnia IIRC had the last tour consist entirely of reserve force troops.

I didn't know that, if I'm honest. Calgary Highlanders to Bosnia, here we come.

The big question in my mind is that if the reserves are there partly as force generation in case of the Armed Forces expansion then why is there not a limited expansion by either a unit or Command Authority area in the case of long term deployments such as Bosnia, Cyrus or Afghanistan IOTL. By tasking a mission for the first 3? 5? cycles with Reg. forces makes sense due to the numbers and readiness levels available but longer term making it a more spread out work load and keeping a reserve of trained, ready to go troops for that next unexpected event.

Canada's list of reserve units is quite long. Keep in mind that the peacekeeping missions are international ones, and situations like Rwanda are not all that common. I have moved the Black Watch and the Voltigeurs back to the Regular Force, but it might be a good idea to have the Queen's Own Rifles, the Hamilton Light Infantry and the Princess of Wales' Own Regiment back to the Total Force system, where they are normally reserves but can be called up if needed.

The other advantage of using reserve troops is the recognition of local people wearing Canadian uniforms. Growing up in north Alberta veterns were common..but almost all had served in WW2. The response from the community once they realized some younger people joined up was amazing especially once they returned to pay their respects to the older veterns...those serving today is who people tend to follow more and their actions as they can relate better. Check out the differences in local support for the troops in a place such as Edmonton (with the garrison right in the city) and Vancouver (with no nearby base). Okay...that ignores lots of other stuff going on but given the actions in Rwanda keep the local support a'rolling.

Well, I parked the carrier in Vancouver, so hopefully that changes the local support equation somewhat. As one in four Canadians in OTL lives in the Toronto area and the Golden Horseshoe, I'll probably have a bunch of reserve units from there. The newly re-activated Ontario Regiment is based in Oshawa, Ontario, and the Black Watch is based in Montreal. I am wondering how I can get a regiment from Northern Ontario and Manitoba, and I am working on that one.

Any ideas on moving/amalgamating reserve units to better match the change in canadian demographics? 1.7 million people in north alberta..2 militia units. See also Prince George, Rupert, Yellowknife (okay 4th Bat. PPCLI - Loyal Edmonton Regiment is supposed to stand up a company there) etc...

I was noticing that there isn't all that many units in the West, and I was thinking perhaps that a British Columbia Highlanders or something of that nature would be appropriate. I also had the idea of a specialized cold-weather force which would operate out of Yellowknife or Whitehorse.
 
Sweet! The Canadian Tomcats get to flex their muscle! Will the Canadians think about operating them from HMCS Warrior (ex-Forrestal)? She's big enough to operate twenty-four of them comfortably, after all...

You bet the Tomcats will fly from Warrior. I am planning on this for Warrior's Air Wing:

16 CF-184 Tomcat
28 CF-188 Hornet
24 CF-187 Corsair II
10 CP-121T Turbo Tracker
4 CE-2C Hawkeye
4 CH-124 Sea King (for a little while until the Sea Kings are replaced)

The Tomcats are gonna get the F-14D treatment too, plus a few special Canadian modifications that the Americans decided not to go with, that they'll end up regretting. :D The Corsair IIs are the workhorses from the Carrier, but they are cheap, work very well and are easy to maintain, and will be staying in Canadian Service for a while to come.
 
You bet the Tomcats will fly from Warrior. I am planning on this for Warrior's Air Wing:

16 CF-184 Tomcat
28 CF-188 Hornet
24 CF-187 Corsair II
10 CP-121T Turbo Tracker
4 CE-2C Hawkeye
4 CH-124 Sea King (for a little while until the Sea Kings are replaced)

The Tomcats are gonna get the F-14D treatment too, plus a few special Canadian modifications that the Americans decided not to go with, that they'll end up regretting. :D The Corsair IIs are the workhorses from the Carrier, but they are cheap, work very well and are easy to maintain, and will be staying in Canadian Service for a while to come.
Might I suggest an Air Wing similar to the USN CVW IRL 1994 with 14 Tomcats, 36 Hornets, ASW's the same, along with AEW, and 6 Sea Kings? Also, get some heavier attack assets, like Intruders (plus tanker version), along with Prowlers for ECM/SEAD...
 
Might I suggest an Air Wing similar to the USN CVW IRL 1994 with 14 Tomcats, 36 Hornets, ASW's the same, along with AEW, and 6 Sea Kings? Also, get some heavier attack assets, like Intruders (plus tanker version), along with Prowlers for ECM/SEAD...

I was going to modify some of the Trackers for Tanker duty (Canada has 80 of them, I don't need that many ASW aircraft). For heavier attack aircraft, perhaps the navalized Tornado I envisioned earlier in the thread would work, or of course the Intruder. I forgot about the EW aircraft, perhaps the Tornado ECR could do this too, or the Prowler.
 
I was going to modify some of the Trackers for Tanker duty (Canada has 80 of them, I don't need that many ASW aircraft). For heavier attack aircraft, perhaps the navalized Tornado I envisioned earlier in the thread would work, or of course the Intruder. I forgot about the EW aircraft, perhaps the Tornado ECR could do this too, or the Prowler.
Getting the KA-6D Intruder would solve your tanker problem, and would be a much better match to your Corsairs, Hornets, and Tomcats, as well as the Intruders and Prowlers you're thinking about. I would also suggest having Canada inquire about the possibility of either procuring or getting a production license for Lockheed's S-3 Viking...
 
Those are good points, actually. Perhaps a 1st Canadian Inuit Battalion for Nunavut, based in Iqaluit, is on the cards. I'll have to integrate that. As far as smaller boats, I have icebreakers up there, perhaps I can deploy minesweepers or something of that nature too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Rangers
Alternatively you can expand these unsung heroes into a greater force?




Canada's list of reserve units is quite long. Keep in mind that the peacekeeping missions are international ones, and situations like Rwanda are not all that common. I have moved the Black Watch and the Voltigeurs back to the Regular Force, but it might be a good idea to have the Queen's Own Rifles, the Hamilton Light Infantry and the Princess of Wales' Own Regiment back to the Total Force system, where they are normally reserves but can be called up if needed.

That might work...rotating numbers for call-ups can get ugly if folks want to stick around long term with their unit.



Well, I parked the carrier in Vancouver, so hopefully that changes the local support equation somewhat. As one in four Canadians in OTL lives in the Toronto area and the Golden Horseshoe, I'll probably have a bunch of reserve units from there. The newly re-activated Ontario Regiment is based in Oshawa, Ontario, and the Black Watch is based in Montreal. I am wondering how I can get a regiment from Northern Ontario and Manitoba, and I am working on that one.

In Northeastern Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Regiment_of_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Algonquin_Regiment
49th (Sault Ste Marie) Field Regiment, RCA
26 (North Bay) Service Battalion (Detachment in CFB Petawawa)

In Northwestern ontario/Manitoba/Sask. you have the 38 CBG...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_Canadian_Brigade_Group

Ontario:
The Lake Superior Scottish are in Thunder Bay along with 18 Service Battalion, 18 Field Ambulance, Thunder Bay
116th Independent Field Battery in Kenora

Manitoba:
The Fort Garry Horse in Winnipeg
The Royal Winnipeg Rifles
The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (Dieppe Anniversy re-instatement?)
31 Field Engineers
also have CFB Shilo in Manitoba...

Missing some and no disprespect intented to the members of those units.




I was noticing that there isn't all that many units in the West, and I was thinking perhaps that a British Columbia Highlanders or something of that nature would be appropriate. I also had the idea of a specialized cold-weather force which would operate out of Yellowknife or Whitehorse.
There's alot of history of units in the west but much of it was settled after ww1 so the locations of people/vs units doesn't match up well. Also quite a few highlander units in Vancouver.

BC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39_Canadian_Brigade_Group
Alberta:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41_Canadian_Brigade_Group
Yukon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukon_Field_Force (no longer a unit)
http://jproc.ca/rrp/whitehorse.html
NWT:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/menu/consult/current_policy/defence_portfolio/annexd_e.asp
Training schools and lookouts mostly.
http://www.cfna.dnd.ca/09-002a-eng.asp
440 Transport Squadron, JTF Training, and the Canadian Rangers...

Biggest thing is if you're going to try to expand the reserves adding either new armouries or units to the order of battle. IOTL rather than create a new unit or revive a unit struck off the list of active reserve 4 PPCLI - Loyal Edmonton Reg. was told to stand up another company of troops based in Yellowknife even though they are a Edmonton based unit. This could be expanded for units such as the Rocky Mountain Rangers adding companies in Prince George, Prince Rupert and Dawson Creek to better match the populations that have grown up while providing a greater recruitement base in future.
 
Getting the KA-6D Intruder would solve your tanker problem, and would be a much better match to your Corsairs, Hornets, and Tomcats, as well as the Intruders and Prowlers you're thinking about. I would also suggest having Canada inquire about the possibility of either procuring or getting a production license for Lockheed's S-3 Viking...

I am thinking about going with the S-3, but ASW is not the first concern right now because the lack of a Soviet threat. I was also thinking of buying the C-2A Greyhound for the COD and aerial refueling roles. The KA-6, if I buy it, will get the F404 engines form the Hornet, which the A-6F proposal worked on too, giving substantially better fuel economy and six fuel tanks instead of four. If I go with that route, I'll probably get the Navy a couple of land-based tankers based on smaller planes (A310s, maybe) for tanker usage as well.
 
Canadian A-6Fs? Excellent idea! While you're at it, have the Canadians get the proposed KA-6H tanker that was derived from the EA-6B Prowler!:D
 

MacCaulay

Banned
16 CF-184 Tomcat
28 CF-188 Hornet
24 CF-187 Corsair II
10 CP-121T Turbo Tracker
4 CE-2C Hawkeye
4 CH-124 Sea King (for a little while until the Sea Kings are replaced)

That's...quite a few different aircraft for the air wing. Myself I might have just gone with the Tomcats or the Hornets, but then again this TL's got some of the wank in it and it's a fun one I'm not going to raise a huge stink.

Also...I really got kind of a kick out of the fact that the Canadian Navy is flying all these kinds of aircraft off of a supercarrier and yet even in this timeline, they're still operating the Sea King after it's life has expired...they just can't seem to get away from those things no matter ho much cash is thrown at them. :D
 
The Mann apparently has plans for the Sea King's replacement on down the line. Besides, the H-3 Sea King is not dead!
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Rangers
Alternatively you can expand these unsung heroes into a greater force?

*Punches self in the forehead for forgetting about the Rangers*

That, my friend, is an idea I am going to run with in the future. Thanks a million. :)

That might work...rotating numbers for call-ups can get ugly if folks want to stick around long term with their unit.

I was more thinking rotating units, like a US National Guard being sent to a war zone like OTL. Rotating personnel IMO isn't a good idea too often because it breaks up cohesion, which for a fighting unit can be very bad news.

In Northeastern Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Regiment_of_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Algonquin_Regiment
49th (Sault Ste Marie) Field Regiment, RCA
26 (North Bay) Service Battalion (Detachment in CFB Petawawa)

In Northwestern ontario/Manitoba/Sask. you have the 38 CBG...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_Canadian_Brigade_Group

Ontario:
The Lake Superior Scottish are in Thunder Bay along with 18 Service Battalion, 18 Field Ambulance, Thunder Bay
116th Independent Field Battery in Kenora

Manitoba:
The Fort Garry Horse in Winnipeg
The Royal Winnipeg Rifles
The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (Dieppe Anniversy re-instatement?)
31 Field Engineers
also have CFB Shilo in Manitoba...

Missing some and no disprespect intented to the members of those units.

There's alot of history of units in the west but much of it was settled after ww1 so the locations of people/vs units doesn't match up well. Also quite a few highlander units in Vancouver.

BC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39_Canadian_Brigade_Group
Alberta:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41_Canadian_Brigade_Group
Yukon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukon_Field_Force (no longer a unit)
http://jproc.ca/rrp/whitehorse.html
NWT:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/menu/consult/current_policy/defence_portfolio/annexd_e.asp
Training schools and lookouts mostly.
http://www.cfna.dnd.ca/09-002a-eng.asp
440 Transport Squadron, JTF Training, and the Canadian Rangers...

Biggest thing is if you're going to try to expand the reserves adding either new armouries or units to the order of battle. IOTL rather than create a new unit or revive a unit struck off the list of active reserve 4 PPCLI - Loyal Edmonton Reg. was told to stand up another company of troops based in Yellowknife even though they are a Edmonton based unit. This could be expanded for units such as the Rocky Mountain Rangers adding companies in Prince George, Prince Rupert and Dawson Creek to better match the populations that have grown up while providing a greater recruitement base in future.

I'll keep all of this in mind. Thank you very much, my friend. :)
 
That's...quite a few different aircraft for the air wing. Myself I might have just gone with the Tomcats or the Hornets, but then again this TL's got some of the wank in it and it's a fun one I'm not going to raise a huge stink.

Also...I really got kind of a kick out of the fact that the Canadian Navy is flying all these kinds of aircraft off of a supercarrier and yet even in this timeline, they're still operating the Sea King after it's life has expired...they just can't seem to get away from those things no matter ho much cash is thrown at them. :D

Their life is almost over. I'm having to go through the rebuilding in stages, and ITTL I never agreed to the deal for the AgustaWestland helicopters (a BIG mis on my part, but I'll fix that soon), so the helis are rising towards the top of the list. The frigates are almost done, and as I am buying LPDs I'll have to get choppers for them. A 1996 purchase, and about 1998-99 delivery. I have both kinds of aircraft already, why not use them? All Canuck CF-18s have carrier arrestor gear to this day, and I imagine the F-14s would too, so why not? You use a hammer, and it doesn't work, so you get a bigger hammer, so to speak. :)
 
Canadian A-6Fs? Excellent idea! While you're at it, have the Canadians get the proposed KA-6H tanker that was derived from the EA-6B Prowler!:D

Damn you and your ideas with the Intruder, I gotta keep SOME semblance of realism in this!! :)
 
Question...

In this timeline there is a total of 9 Chinnook helicopters?

Given that outfits such as DART and potentially offshore drilling platforms may require airlift fast...is this enough?

Heavy lift is expensive...but when you need it..you really need it. And logging choppers from the west coast are set up differently so while good cargo lifters...people are not in as good of position.
 
Question...

In this timeline there is a total of 9 Chinnook helicopters?

Given that outfits such as DART and potentially offshore drilling platforms may require airlift fast...is this enough?

Heavy lift is expensive...but when you need it..you really need it. And logging choppers from the west coast are set up differently so while good cargo lifters...people are not in as good of position.

Helicopter purchase is a 1996 expenditure. I am tending to do things chunk by chunk, both to be efficient and to be able to document it more easily. Chinooks or Sea Stallions aren't cheap, but they aren't THAT expensive.
 
I'm a bit taken aback at the standing up of CSOR *and* a "Canadian Marine Corps" *and* maintaining the Airborne Regiment. If they're all being assumed as having three full-strength battalions, that's pretty iffy to me. I know there's the difference of not having had the decade of darkness here, but as it is, CSOR's only at battalion strength. Meanwhile, more realistically, you've got a couple more infantry regiments standing up.

I'd see either CSOR being at full strength with a battalion or two of marine-oriented infantry or a regiment of marine infantry, not both. Were you seeing both units being at battalion strength on their own?

When you're exploring expanding the role of the Rangers, please bear in mind where they're coming from. These guys are only currently authorized twelve days' pay per year. They're reservists with a serious wilderness skillset and minimal military training. Went on a winter survival course run by them once, had a blast, got to know some of them and an idea of how they fit in the big picture.

Their role is sovereignty patrol, search and rescue, and acting as guides and trainers. Drop a company off in the woods near a Ranger patrol and help 'em site themselves. Help them feed themselves off the land as best they can if necessary.

You can give these guys more funding, improving their ability to train during the year, increase the number of "Patrols" (a Ranger unit is referred to as a Patrol, as opposed to the verb), and increase the number of positions a Patrol can train and support.

You'd have an extremely hard time developing a conventional military unit out of Rangers. They're laid-back, they're unfamiliar with military protocol, and they're capable of butting heads with regular force guys who aren't familiar with them.

As to actually forming an arctic unit, what's your objective? To put together some sort of deployable, modern, Canadian answer to Sweden's medieval Finnish troops? A respectably-sized, largely native army reserve unit? A largely Inuit infantry battalion in the regular forces?

For the last one, outside of the language-imposed segregation of Valcartier, guys don't get chosen for their units on the basis of ethnicity. If a guy gets sent to the "army of the west" and the patricia's, there's a pretty good chance he can stay there if he wants. But there's plenty of Newfies and guys from Ontario there. If you're planning on having a regular force arctic/mountain specialist infantry battalion in the north, I'd say a better bet's probably to stick a battalion of your newly stood-up CSOR up there, with reservist detachments in Yellowknife, Whitehorse, and Iqaluit. Offer these reservists plenty of funding for exercises in cooperation with this battalion, and get the Rangers involved. Offer signing bonuses for component transfers to the reg force for qualified candidates (eg. after completion of trades training).

In ten years, your arctic battalion might have a seriously Inuit face to it. But I can't see it being that way building it from the ground up. Moreover, you're already stretching your cadre with all the other infantry units you're standing up.

If you're thinking of a reserve unit, you're going to be hurting. A reserve unit needs a cadre of middle and lower ranks to function effectively. You're going to have to station at least a platoon of reg force in whatever centers to get a useful unit in the places you're trying to recruit from, and it's going to take time to recruit and develop junior leaders in the new unit.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I'm a bit taken aback at the standing up of CSOR *and* a "Canadian Marine Corps" *and* maintaining the Airborne Regiment. If they're all being assumed as having three full-strength battalions, that's pretty iffy to me. I know there's the difference of not having had the decade of darkness here, but as it is, CSOR's only at battalion strength. Meanwhile, more realistically, you've got a couple more infantry regiments standing up.

It's got a fair bit of wank mixed in there, and I think Mann knows it. The funny thing is that if one reads over the original discussion that this TL was borne out of, I can tell you right now any timeline that stuck to what was hammered out (and I did think about it, believe me) would be very boring by comparison.
 
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