WI: Axis Declare War on Japan after Pearl Harbor?

A couple of points to state on the record for plausibility

- Japan was never a full member of the Axis Alliance

- Japan refused to help in Operation Barbarossa

- Japan did not consult Hitler over Pearl Harbor

- A Japanese (non-Aryan) World Power in the long term did not fit the Nazi Worldview

- Japan was a threat to British Rule (Aryan Rule) in India (Again, according to Nazi craziness) which Hitler wanted to preserve.
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Those things being said, what if Hitler, after Japan's suprise attack on America issues a DOW on the "yellow menace" in the East and then preceded to attempt to re-establish diplomatic & economic ties with their old Chinese ally, Chaing-Kai

How do the Wallies react? Can ceasefire negotiations plausbiliy happen on the Western Front?
 
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USA laughs and still aids allies. Eventually goes to war with Germany (early/spring 1942) Germany can't attack Japan and no ceasefire because it's really dumb idea.
 
Hitler never would have declared war on Japan. He needed the strength of the IJN to counteract that of the RN and USN. He also wanted Japan to tie down large Allied resources in the Pacific (which they did), preventing the full strength of the US and Britain from being focused on Europe.

As a powerful anti-communist nation, there was also the chance (in Hitler's mind) that the Japanese would completely smash the Western Allies and then turn on the Soviet Union anyway within 1-2 years. This was one of the main reasons behind his decision to declare war on the US: he thought the Japanese would swiftly crush the US military and that the American people's will to fight would collapse like a house of cards. Nazi Germany could then sit in at the peace table and "pick up its share of American marbles" for little to no cost. As it turns out, it didn't quite work that way. :cool:
 
If somehow this were to happen, then we would have a very confusing three-way World War II. The question is... do the Allies still demand the unconditional surrender of Japan since she is not an Axis member?
 
And the Soviet-Japanese alliance proposal suddenly becomes more feasible? :confused:

No, seriously, there's no reason for Hitler to declare war on Japan. He already began the drift from China to Japan some time ago and neither can touch each other anyway.

Japan, on their part, would be effectively alone. Not that they weren't in OTL, anyway but now they'll be completely friendless. The most vague opportunity for Japan to survive then would be to get an alliance with Stalin, but barring an implausible communist takeover of Japan, that's basically wishful thinking.

Overall, that basically results in virtually no change in the status quo at all. It might even end up worse for the Germans at the end, with Japan struck off as a hiding spot for the U-boats, but that's hardly a game-changer anyway.

On a less serious note, you just retconned Yuu-chan's (U-511) final form (Ro-500). Can't say that's not a good thing for me, personally, but plenty would dispute that. :V
 

iddt3

Donor
A couple of points to state on the record for plausibility

- Japan was never a full member of the Axis Alliance

- Japan refused to help in Operation Barbarossa

- Japan did not consult Hitler over Pearl Harbor

- A Japanese (non-Aryan) World Power in the long term did not fit the Nazi Worldview

- Japan was a threat to British Rule (Aryan Rule) in India (Again, according to Nazi craziness) which Hitler wanted to preserve.
**********

Those things being said, what if Hitler, after Japan's suprise attack on America issues a DOW on the "yellow menace" in the East and then preceded to attempt to re-establish diplomatic & economic ties with their old Chinese ally, Chaing-Kai

How do the Wallies react? Can ceasefire negotiations plausbiliy happen on the Western Front?

Nooo. Not unless Germany is willing to back out of France and Poland. Japan attacked the UK as well as the US, so they're now allies. The US is going to flood the UK with planes, tanks, and other goods. Hitler's declaration of war on Japan is obviously farcical if he continues to attack British convoys and American lend lease to the UK, and if he doesn't attack them, he's letting Britain freely build up to eventually invade, at a time of their choosing. Declaring war on Japan is even sillier than remaining neutral, because at least as a neutral he can continue to send a bit of aid and intelligence to the Japanese, making them a bigger threat to the UK and the US. If he declares war, than he gains nothing but potentially making Japan a bit more likely to sue for peace, which is *not* good.
 
POD before Pearl Harbor: Halifax becomes Prime Minister and the Nazis are willing to give their Aryan brethren an armistice. Unwilling to see the glorious British Empire diminished in favor of the contemptuous Kingdom of Italy, the Nazis reduce the Italians to puppets; allowing Britain the chance to push Italy out of Africa for good. Anglo-German cooperation after this would be impossible, unless Germany withdraws from Greece, Yugoslavia, and the Western and Northern European countries they blitzkrieged and Britain assists Germany against the Soviet Union (what Hitler was hoping for to begin with). For Germany to reconcile with China and declare war on Japan, Chiang would have to terminate relations with the Soviets. Though Chiang secretly didn't trust the Soviets, he felt he had no choice because they were next door (aid from German ships would take months) and they would redirect all of their aid to the CCP in a heartbeat. So, the three-way World War II like the OP proposed would end up being: the US, UK, Nazi Germany, Turkey (they had a bone to pick with Italy and the Soviet Union), and KMT China Vs. The Soviet Union, Mongolia, and CCP Vs. Japan and Thailand. With the British and Nazis fighting no longer, the Soviets and Japanese would cherish their Neutrality Pact even more than they did in OTL and renew it. Though, this wouldn't stop the Soviets from supporting the CCP against the Japanese and KMT. If Hitler complies with British demands to withdraw from Greece, Yugoslavia, and Northern and Western Europe, France and the other newly liberated European countries would likely stay neutral because, France had no interest in cooperating with Germany or fighting the Soviets. In withdrawing, Germany and their Italian puppets would give Croatia independence from Yugoslavia.
 
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What some people fail to understand is that Hitler's reaction to Pearl Harbor was not concern that it brought America into the war (which he thought It already was for all practical purposes) but on the contrary exultation--"We can't lose the war at all. We now have an ally which has never been conquered in 3,000 years." Surely America would now have to devote so much of its resources to fighting Japan that it could not effectively fight Germany.

Incidentally, Ian Kershaw has pointed out that Germany had already effectively committed itself to support Japan in case of a war with the US *before* Pearl Harbor. http://books.google.com/books?id=B5fJYMxufVcC&pg=PA444

As for reaction in the US, any German attempt to disassociate itself from Pearl Harbor--let alone declare war on Japan!--would simply be greeted with incredulity--"a transparent trick" etc.
 
See, I recall that Germany had actually tried to help Nationalist China before WWII, and I'm not sure exactly what happens if Germany continues to try to make that limited support instead of picking Japan.

The calculations are different, then. If China looks Pro-Axis, why would there be an embargo against Japan? Why not continue the sale of war material to Japan, and why not even offer some diplomatic support to "mediate" in China?

Japan would have to play a bit differently, seeking to continue to hold Allied support in China; things like the Panay Incident and the Nanjing Massacre are going to either be handled differently or not happen. And there won't be a Pearl Harbor--there might be some additional concession forced from the Nationalists, including Inner Mongolia and the city of Beijing.

Critically, though, neither the Soviet Union nor the Allies are going to be throwing aid at the Nationalists; The Soviets might well be supporting the ChiComms. Chiang is well and screwed--and I think Japan may well get their war aim, the emergence of an Empire at the expense of China.

Germany declares war against Japan in this scenario, with no Pearl Harbor, perhaps after the US and UK have gone to war with Germany for other reasons, and:
Japan makes a token effort in Western Europe after it forces China to sue for terms.
 
The WAllies laugh and go back to fighting the Nazis.

Even outside of the absurdity of the Nazi's openly declaring war on another member of the Axis alliance (which is a very, very bad precedent to set), the Nazi's (and, I guess the Italians? They never seem to come up in these discussions about "How can the Nazi's become friends with the British?" threads) needed the Japanese as a useful distraction. The Japanese, in invading China, Southeast Asia, and the Pacific Islands tied down thousands Allied troops, hundreds of ships, and millions of tons of material. Every British soldier hacking his way through the jungles of Burma, every Marine island hopping from one god-forsaken sandbar to the other, every Soviet tank crew tooling around Siberia is one less the Germans have to worry about.

Declaring war on Japan in some kind of absurd scheme to make a separate peace with the WAllies accomplishes none of those. The British and the Americans aren't suddenly going to drop everything and welcome Nazi support against the Japanese, because they know the Japanese aren't the kind of threat that necessitates that kind of "deal with the devil". Hell, the British could probably solo the Japanese, if it really came to it (it'd take years, but they could do it). Furthermore, Germany has zero means of projecting power into the region and actually waging war against the Japanese: the Kriegsmarine can barely operate into the North Atlantic, let alone circumnavigate the goddamn planet and then engage a far stronger and better trained navy. Best case scenario the WAllies laugh von Ribbentrop out of the embassy and go back to waging war, worst case Italy jumps ship, makes a separate peace with Britain and France, and either sits the war out or full on defects to the Allied side.

*EDIT* Actually, since you've already asked this question, I'll just repost my original response:

Why would they do this? Hitler hated the US (unlike the British, for whom he had a grudging respect for), and Germany had spent the last few years building Japan up as an ally. Him declaring war on Japan isn't a "sudden bout of sanity", it's him being even more crazy.

On top of that, how is Germany going to fight Japan? Germany has no colonies in the region, the Kriegsmarine is rapidly on its way to enjoying its new home on the bottom of the Atlantic, and there's no way in hell that even if the Germans did this, the British or the Americans would give them Lend-Lease support. If anything, this would accelerate the July 20 plotters, since anyone with half a brain would see that Hitler DOW'ing on one of Germany's closest allies to curry favor with a de facto adversary would demonstrate even more that he was a fucking lunatic driving Germany over the edge.
 
See, I recall that Germany had actually tried to help Nationalist China before WWII, and I'm not sure exactly what happens if Germany continues to try to make that limited support instead of picking Japan.

IMO this is very unlikely, especially with Ribbentrop as Foreign Minister, but probably even without him. To quote (with slight changes) an old soc.history.what-if post of mine:

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There is an interesting chapter entitled "Falling between two stools:
Nazi Germany's East Asian Policy" in Christian Leitz, *Nazi Foreign
Policy, 1933-1941: The Road to Global War* (2004) where he notes that the
Third Reich's originally friendly relations with China had their roots in
the Weimar Republic. Both Germany and China (even though the latter was
nominally one of the victors) considered themselves treated unfairly by
the peace settlement. As early as 1921 the Chinese Republic re-
established diplomatic relations with Germany, and "Influential groups
among Germany's business community, but also within the Reichswehr and the
Foreign Ministry, both advocated and actively pursued an improvement of
Germany's relationship to China. In the military spehere, this resulted
in the highly controversial dispatch of German military advisers to
Nanking in 1928, while in the economic field, German-Chinese trade
relations expanded even during the Depression with a growing number of
German companies establishing a presence in the country. From seventh
place among Germany's export markets in 1929, China was to rise to third
place seven years later." (p. 127) Japan, OTOH, was seen as a party to
the oppressive Versailles Treaty (and as late as the early 1930s Japan
failed to provide any support for the efforts of the Papen and Schleicher
governments to reduce the military restrictions imposed on Germany by that
treaty). German industrialists also complained about Japanese
competition, Japanese copying of German goods, etc.

For the first few years of the Third Reich, Hilter showed little interest
in Far Eastern affairs, and the Foreign Ministry, headed by Neurath, tried
to maintain a "balanced" policy toward China and Japan. (For a short
period in the mid-1930s the chief military adviser to Chiang Kai-shek was
none other than Gerneral Hans von Seeckt, one of the Reichswehr's leading
officers during the 1920's.) Ribbentrop was the man who made the most
strenuous efforts (even before he became Foreign Minister) to redirect the
focus of German Far Eastern policy away from China and toward Japan, with
whom he sought a real military alliance, not just the largely
propagandistic Anti-Comintern Pact.

So the question is: Without Ribbentrop, would Hitler still have changed
Germany to a pro-Japanese orientation as he did after the outbreak of the
Sino-Japanese War and especially from 1938 onward? (In 1938, the German
ambassador to China was recalled, and German representation was reduced
to the level of chargé d'affaires; Manchukuo was officially recognized;
and most important, German military advisers were recalled--although a
small number resisted Nazi pressure and remained.) I think the answer is
Yes, because once China lost most of her largest cities to Japan it was
apparent that she could not do much for Germany economically. Moreover,
she was obviously too weak--fighting for her own survival--to be of any
military assistance. Japan, OTOH, was in a position to exert pressure on
the Soviet Union (and to some extent on Britain and France through their
colonies in the Far East) in peacetime and perhaps to be a German ally in
case of war. Also, "The growing realisation that Britain would not
conveniently fall into the position of ally 'alloted' it by Hitler reduced
his concerns about antagonising the British when endorsing Japan's
aggression in Asia." (p. 136)

As Leitz notes, even after 1938 German-Chinese relations--even military
relations--did not completely cease. For example, arms shipments were
gradually curtailed after November 1937, but not stopped entirely: "For a
time, and against Ribbentrop's express wishes, Goering remained clearly
too keen to let the lucrative war material trade with China expire. When
Goering finally ordered the cessation of arms exports to China in April
1938, contracts concluded prior to August 1937 were exempted...As late as
15 October 1939 Goering indirectly acknowledged that such exports had not
yet ceased when he told Sven Hedin that 'we are not at all interested in
the China of Chiang Kai-shek. We have furnished it with war materiel but
are now going to stop these supplies.'" (p. 135) Furthermore, Germany did
not break all diplomatic relations with Chiang's government until 2 July
1941. (p. 134) So Germany did not entirely eliminate relatons with China, but there is no
doubt that from 1938 on her basic orientation was toward Japan, and in
view of the disparity in power between Japan and China, it is hard for me
to see Hitler deciding otherwise, even without Ribbentrop. The only POD
would be a much stronger China and weaker Japan, and that is not something
which German policy in the 1930's would be able to bring about.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/_Z3OwsIoZLo/7HqJW2WqvSMJ
 
While I guess it is OK timing to start criticizing the POD we rarely get beyond this point. Hence the question of what happens goes unanswered.

Criticism is apt because Germany did see the US as an antagonist and wanted Japan to take away some of their efforts. That does not mean it could not happen if we changes Hitler's priorities and thinking a bit.

Lets simply assume that Hitler wanted Japan to enter the war. Not against the US, but against the USSR. This is actually not a POD.
The POD could be that Japanese intelligence home in on Richard Sorge slightly faster than OTL and captures him before the Soviet counter-attack before Moscow. He is tortured and confess as OTL. The fuss is such that Japan informs Germany that the Russian perceived threat level is decreased.
When Hitler then see his armies crumble before Moscow he links it directly to his failing ally and the same/next day (depending on when you define the crumbling) Japan strikes at Pearl Harbor. Hitler's mind is still focused in the Japanese failing him and furious and impulsively declare war on Japan.


Now what happens. IMHO the US will have a serious issue participating actively against Germany. Its a democracy. Hitler will, partly right, (PARTLY!!) claim that his task always has been the Bulwark against communism. The US has no publicly acceptable reason to go to war on Germany.
I think the question is more if they can keep support Britain as they have no publicly acceptable reason to. Germany will extend their peace offers to Britain once again. Even offer to leave France? Effectively, the US commitment would be to save Communism (and rid the world of the Nazis, but that is not yet known to be as important as we know today).
 
How is declaring war on Japan in Germany's interests against Communism? :confused: And what does declaring war on Japan achieve anyway? The US isn't suddenly going to welcome Germany as an ally (especially since there is no fucking way for Germany to fight Japan anyway) so in what world does this decision even bear fruit? Also how can Hitler play the race card against the "Yellow Menace" and then try and woo Chiang (who has been recieving more assitance from the US and USSR than anything Germany can offer?)
 
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How is declaring war on Japan in Germany's interests against Communism? :confused: And what does declaring war on Japan achieve anyway? The US isn't suddenly going to welcome Germany as an ally (especially since there is no fucking way for Germany to fight Japan anyway) so in what world does this decision even bear fruit? Also how can Hitler play the race card against the "Yellow Menace" and then try and woo Chiang (who has been recieving more assitance from the US and USSR than anything Germany can offer?)

I think we'll have to think of an emotional motivation to see this happen, so it does not have to be in Germany's interest. Was declaring war on the US in Germany's interest?
As you rightly point out, there is no way to fight Japan - or vice versa. Absolutely no consequences just considering Japan and US. However, the US cannot go to war against Germany in this case.
And Hitler doesn't play the Race card. He goes to war over Japan's failing to be dedicated in containing communism.
 
I think we'll have to think of an emotional motivation to see this happen, so it does not have to be in Germany's interest. Was declaring war on the US in Germany's interest?
As you rightly point out, there is no way to fight Japan - or vice versa. Absolutely no consequences just considering Japan and US. However, the US cannot go to war against Germany in this case.
And Hitler doesn't play the Race card. He goes to war over Japan's failing to be dedicated in containing communism.

I know Hitler was prone to emotional outbursts, but one like this? Hitler's going to look like a lunatic in this scenario, his ally has attacked an enemy who Germany is unofficially fighting and then he's declared war on them? His own staff are going to be wondering what on earth he's doing, it set's a bad precedent for alliances too... I just don't see this as being remotely plausible, because only a crazy person thinks like this, and I know we are talking about Hitler but the man deserves SOME credit... His decisions usually had some logic to them...
 
I think we'll have to think of an emotional motivation to see this happen, so it does not have to be in Germany's interest. Was declaring war on the US in Germany's interest?
Germany was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with the US. Through the Lend-Lease the US was funding and supporting Germany's enemies, and unrestricted submarine warfare (the only thing Germany could do to interfere with the Lend-Lease) would have led to war like it did in WW1. So Germany could either go to war or accept that their enemies were going to get massive amounts of aid.
As you rightly point out, there is no way to fight Japan - or vice versa. Absolutely no consequences just considering Japan and US. However, the US cannot go to war against Germany in this case.
And Hitler doesn't play the Race card. He goes to war over Japan's failing to be dedicated in containing communism.
Hitler going to war with Japan gives him no upside, and plenty of downsides. The biggest downside is that it makes his allies nervous. After all Hitler and Japan were quite friendly, so him deciding to declare war on them over an attack on an unfriendly power makes him seem like a lunatic.

As to the US see what I said above.
 
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