WI: All of Henry VIII's and Catherine of Aragon's kids are boys?

[WorstOfHumanity]

The inverse of my previous thread asking what if all of Henry's kids were girls

Who would they marry? Would Henry still divorce Catherine, and if not would he remarry after her death in 1536? Would we not have an English reformation at all? Would Henry live longer, perhaps not having a jousting accident as a result of feeling like he has to prove his masculinity?

Alternate Issue:

To Catherine of Aragon, m. 1509, d, 1536

• Henry, b. 1510
• Edward, b. 1511
• Arthur, b. 1513
• Edmund, b. 1514
• John, b. 1516
• Alfred, b. 1518

To - (?)

 

[Stahlo]

Six living boys? Katherine will be Queen until she or Henry dies. No way is he breaking from Rome. Also, given the first two boys would be in their mid-twenties assuming Katherine has her historical death date, and likely have children of their own, Henry wouldn't really need to remarry.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

With six living sons, Catherine isnt just ten feet tall and bulletproof. She's a hundred meters tall and capable of withstanding a thermonuclear bomb.

 

[TimTurner]

This is butterfly genocide.

 

[BoleynBuff]

Henry is definitely NOT divorcing Catherine, nor would he have a reason to break from Rome. As for the boys’ marriages, maybe Catherine of Austria for Henry? Though that then begs the question of who João III would marry, but at least he won’t wed a first cousin.

The younger boys would get domestic heiresses. Elizabeth Grey is 6 years older than Edward, but very rich. The only other girls I can think of are Katherine Willoughby (b. 1519) and Anne Bourchier (b. 1517). Oh, and Elizabeth Marney. I can’t find a birthdate for her, but considering the age of her OTL groom, she could work for Edmund or John.

 

[CaesarKhan]

Henry is definitely NOT divorcing Catherine, nor would he have a reason to break from Rome. As for the boys’ marriages, maybe Catherine of Austria for Henry? Though that then begs the question of who João III would marry, but at least he won’t wed a first cousin.

The younger boys would get domestic heiresses. Elizabeth Grey is 6 years older than Edward, but very rich. The only other girls I can think of are Katherine Willoughby (b. 1519) and Anne Bourchier (b. 1517). Oh, and Elizabeth Marney. I can’t find a birthdate for her, but considering the age of her OTL groom, she could work for Edmund or John.

Agree with this across the board. Maybe Lady Mary Howard could marry another one? Probably Alfred given her date of birth - seeing as she married FitzRoy IRL

 

[BoleynBuff]

Agree with this across the board. Maybe Lady Mary Howard could marry another one? Probably Alfred given her date of birth - seeing as she married FitzRoy IRL

To my knowledge, Mary only married FitzRoy because of Anne Boleyn.

 

[Dragonboy]

The inverse of my previous thread asking what if all of Henry's kids were girls

Who would they marry? Would Henry still divorce Catherine, and if not would he remarry after her death in 1536? Would we not have an English reformation at all? Would Henry live longer, perhaps not having a jousting accident as a result of feeling like he has to prove his masculinity?

Alternate Issue:

To Catherine of Aragon, m. 1509, d, 1536

• Henry, b. 1510
• Edward, b. 1511
• Arthur, b. 1513
• Edmund, b. 1514
• John, b. 1516
• Alfred, b. 1518

To - (?)

Henry is prince of wales and future Henry IX
Edward is Duke of York
Arthur Duke of Richmond
Edmund Duke of Somerset
John Duke of Bedford
Alfred Duke of Clarence.

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

Six living boys? Katherine will be Queen until she or Henry dies. No way is he breaking from Rome. Also, given the first two boys would be in their mid-twenties assuming Katherine has her historical death date, and likely have children of their own, Henry wouldn't really need to remarry.

Henry is definitely NOT divorcing Catherine, nor would he have a reason to break from Rome. As for the boys’ marriages, maybe Catherine of Austria for Henry? Though that then begs the question of who João III would marry, but at least he won’t wed a first cousin.

The younger boys would get domestic heiresses. Elizabeth Grey is 6 years older than Edward, but very rich. The only other girls I can think of are Katherine Willoughby (b. 1519) and Anne Bourchier (b. 1517). Oh, and Elizabeth Marney. I can’t find a birthdate for her, but considering the age of her OTL groom, she could work for Edmund or John.

Agree with this across the board. Maybe Lady Mary Howard could marry another one? Probably Alfred given her date of birth - seeing as she married FitzRoy IRL

Henry is prince of wales and future Henry IX
Edward is Duke of York
Arthur Duke of Richmond
Edmund Duke of Somerset
John Duke of Bedford
Alfred Duke of Clarence.

Interesting thoughts, though would Henry remarry assuming Catherine dies around OTL's date? I lean more to thinking he would, if only because of the massive horndog he was. Obviously there is no real 'need', with 6 sons and all.

 

[FalconHonour]

Henry is definitely NOT divorcing Catherine, nor would he have a reason to break from Rome. As for the boys’ marriages, maybe Catherine of Austria for Henry? Though that then begs the question of who João III would marry, but at least he won’t wed a first cousin.

The younger boys would get domestic heiresses. Elizabeth Grey is 6 years older than Edward, but very rich. The only other girls I can think of are Katherine Willoughby (b. 1519) and Anne Bourchier (b. 1517). Oh, and Elizabeth Marney. I can’t find a birthdate for her, but considering the age of her OTL groom, she could work for Edmund or John.

If Pavia still happens, you could see Francis I forced to allow Renee to marry either Henry or Edward. Catherine de Medici is another possibility, I could see Henry wanting her French lands.,.

 

[Dragonboy]

Interesting thoughts, though would Henry remarry assuming Catherine dies around OTL's date? I lean more to thinking he would, if only because of the massive horndog he was. Obviously there is no real 'need', with 6 sons and all.

Henry will most definitely remarry, for beign a horndog and also the fact that he would like either more sons or daughters for a change.

 

[BoleynBuff]

If Pavia still happens, you could see Francis I forced to allow Renee to marry either Henry or Edward. Catherine de Medici is another possibility, I could see Henry wanting her French lands.,.

Well, butterflies could easily give Louis XII a son, which would also butterfly away Catherine. One of the boys could get an ALT daughter of Albany’s, perhaps?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Henry is definitely NOT divorcing Catherine, nor would he have a reason to break from Rome. As for the boys’ marriages, maybe Catherine of Austria for Henry? Though that then begs the question of who João III would marry, but at least he won’t wed a first cousin.

that is entirely dependent on Henry's political posturing at the time his eldest marries. He could just as easily go for Kristina of Denmark (with six surviving sons I doubt he'd feel the need to rush his heir into a marriage with an older bride) or an alt-daughter of Karl V and Mary Tudor the Elder

The younger boys would get domestic heiresses. Elizabeth Grey is 6 years older than Edward, but very rich.

This would be Viscountess Lisle? Pass.

The only other girls I can think of are Katherine Willoughby (b. 1519) and Anne Bourchier (b. 1517). Oh, and Elizabeth Marney. I can’t find a birthdate for her, but considering the age of her OTL groom, she could work for Edmund or John.

Elizabeth Marney has a sister who's married to the duke of Norfolk TTL (OTL Anne Boleyn broke off the engagement and then settled on Frances de Vere for her cousin), so not terrible, but not as brilliant a marriage as if she'd been sole heiress (like Katherine Willoughby or Anne Bourchier)
The earl of Bath only has one son that can easily die in infancy.
Katherine FitzAlan, daughter of the earl of Arundel and Anne Percy, has only one brother
Barons Conyers (and the dormant earldom of Fauconberg) and de la Warr are also one son away from being heiresses in their own right.

For rich, but not really titled:
Anne Pickering. Not really aristocracy, but her mother, Jane Lewknor, was married to Henry Pole and the Poles were desperate to hang onto Jane's money. Two of Anne's husbands sued in court of chancery for the lands to be returned to her (they were confiscated with the rest of the Pole holdings AFAIK).
One of Anne Sapcote (OTL Countess of Bedford)'s daughters by her first husband, Broughton. Broughton was the son of the richest non-peer in England and a (bastard) de Vere. Anne's OTL daughter was married to the duchess of Norfolk's son - against Anne's will - thanks to Anne Boleyn's relationship with Henry seeing the wardship awarded to Norfolk.
Henry Vernon (b.1523) is born as Henrietta. While not titled, she would be heiress to substantial estates in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Staffordshire. Henry's OTL wife, Margaret Swynnerton, would also be on the cards. (granted, these are likely to be second wives or if no other girls can be found)

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

Updated Issue:



To Catherine of Aragon, m. 1509, d, 1536

• Henry, b. 1510

m. Catherine of Austria​

• Edward, b. 1511

m. Renee of France​

• Arthur, b. 1513

m. Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess Lisle​

• Edmund, b. 1514

m. Anne Bourchier, 7th Baroness B.​

• John, b. 1516

m. Elizabeth Marney, 3rd Baroness M.​

• Alfred, b. 1518

m. Katherine Willoughby, 12th Baroness W.​

To Jane Seymour, m. 1536

• George, b. 1537
• Robert. b. 1539
• Thomas, b. 1541
• Humphrey, b. 1542
• Anthony, b. 1544
• Alexander, b. 1547 (Posthumous)

------

How's that looking?

 

[Ivan Lupo]

There is precedent for earlier kings to remarry despite having had several living sons from an earlier marriage. In fact, Catherine's (and Henry's) ancestor Fernando III of Castile had close to 7 or 8 sons reach adulthood from his first marriage with Elizabeth of Swabia before remarrying to Joan of Dammartin.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Updated Issue:



To Catherine of Aragon, m. 1509, d, 1536

• Henry, b. 1510

m. Catherine of Austria​

• Edward, b. 1511

m. Renee of France​

I doubt that François I will wed his sister-in-law to a second-son.

• Arthur, b. 1513

m. Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess Lisle​

Unless Elizabeth Grey had a daughter/sister with the same name, she's too old for Arthur

Edmund, b. 1514

m. Anne Bourchier, 7th Baroness B.​

• John, b. 1516

m. Elizabeth Marney, 3rd Baroness M.​

• Alfred, b. 1518

m. Katherine Willoughby, 12th Baroness W.​

To Jane Seymour, m. 1536

• George, b. 1537
• Robert. b. 1539
• Thomas, b. 1541
• Humphrey, b. 1542
• Anthony, b. 1544
• Alexander, b. 1547 (Posthumous)

Jane won't get a look in with no Anne Boleyn to "show the way". The chances of Jane ending up as queen in any but OTL are excessively remote. She'd been unmarried and at court since 1528 already (after the scandal with her father), Henry only noticed her in 1536 because his usual...playmate was out of commission because they were negotiating a marriage for her. Even Chapuys pointed out that there were four other women that Henry would likely have married, and Henry himself reportedly remarked to Brandon a few days after the wedding that he had "made a mistake" in marrying Jane.

 

[BoleynBuff]

I doubt that François I will wed his sister-in-law to a second-son.

I think OP intends for that match to be a part of the terms after TTL's Pavia.

Jane won't get a look in with no Anne Boleyn to "show the way".

This. Henry was only interested in Jane because he got tired of fiery and educated.

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

I doubt that François I will wed his sister-in-law to a second-son.

I think OP intends for that match to be a part of the terms after TTL's Pavia.

Correct

Unless Elizabeth Grey had a daughter/sister with the same name, she's too old for Arthur

If he marries at 16 which was usual for an arrangement, she would be 24. Older than him certainly, but not so much that kids aren't viable or other such considerations

Jane won't get a look in with no Anne Boleyn to "show the way". The chances of Jane ending up as queen in any but OTL are excessively remote. She'd been unmarried and at court since 1528 already (after the scandal with her father), Henry only noticed her in 1536 because his usual...playmate was out of commission because they were negotiating a marriage for her. Even Chapuys pointed out that there were four other women that Henry would likely have married, and Henry himself reportedly remarked to Brandon a few days after the wedding that he had "made a mistake" in marrying Jane.

This. Henry was only interested in Jane because he got tired of fiery and educated.

Hmm, any recomendations instead? I went with her given how she was Henry's 'favourite' wife, though the circumstances for that are certainly changed ITTL

 

[Jonathan]

Here is my take

Henry VIII, King of England (b. 1491, reign, 1509, d. 1547) [1] m. 1509, Catherine of Aragon (1585-1541) [2]

1) Henry, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall, later, Henry IX of England (b. 1510, r. 1547, 1572) [3] m. Renée of France (1510–1574)​

2) Edward, Duke of York (b. 1511-1578) [4] m. 1532, Christina of Denmark (1521-1590) ​

3) Arthur, Duke of Richmond and Somerset, later additionally, jure uxoris, Duke of Viseu (b. 1513-1575) [5] m. 1533, Mary of Bourbon (1515–1538), m. 1540, Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu (1521–1577)​

4) John, Duke of Bedford and Cambridge, later additionally, jure uxoris, Duke of Suffolk (1514-1551 [6] m. Lady Frances Brandon (1517– 20 November 1559)​

5) Prince Edmund, Duke of Clarence (1516-1577) [7] m. Lady Mary Howard (c. 1519-1557)​

6) Prince Thomas, Earl of Eltham, later, Cardinal-Prince, Archbishop of Canterbury (1518-1589) [8]​

​

[1] His death happens the same as OTL, having injured himself in a tournament in the late 1530s, leading to his obesity and other medical problems.
His reign is completely different however without the English reformation, no dissolution of the monasteries and foreign policy of anti-French
[2] Catherine lives an extra five years, to the age of 56, three years more than her mother, but not as long as her sister.
Her otl death was most likely sped up due to her living conditions and the mental strain to her health.
Her death left a mark on Henry, many expected him to remarry, however like his father, he would stay widowed for his remaining years, although there were plenty of ladies from court that made sure his remaining years were comfortable.
[3] The first son, Henry, enjoyed a magnificent early life, from the beginning with a grand celebration of his birth. His marriage to Renée was arranged through King Henry and his brother-in-law, Louis of France in 1515.
When Francis I took the throne, he was unable to break the betrothal. Catherine was hoping to get one of her nieces to marry her eldest son.
[4] Catherine would get her wish and would see her second son, Edward marry her great niece, Christina of Denmark, the younger surviving daughter of King Christian II of Denmark & Norway and Isabella of Austria. (IOTL she would marry the Duke of Milan and Duke of Lorraine)
[5] The first marriage was one of love, Arthur met Mary during the wedding of his brother to Renée. The marriage sadly only lasted under five years when she died. The second marriage was arranged by his mother in her final years.
[6] Although not a popular name in the royal family, since the reign of King John, Henry named his son this, in honour of Catherine's brother, John, Prince of Asturias and Girona. He was married to his cousin, Frances, son of Henry’s best friend Charles Brandon and Henry’s sister, Mary. This marriage also allowed for the dukedom of Suffolk to be brought back into royal hands.
[7] Edmund was married to Mary Howard, granddaughter of Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk and Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham.
[8] The final son, named in honour of Cardinal Thomas Wolsey, would be educated in the church and would be a prominent figure in England and Europe.

 

[QueenofAirandSnarkness]

Anne Basset, perhaps? She was a long-running "he'll probably marry her" from observers at court anyway, perhaps having her as a lady-in-waiting/companion to one of his daughters in law or his niece Margaret Douglas? It would be a scandal of sorts, ruffle his sons' feathers a bit, and the age gap would raise eyebrows, but not earth-shattering.