WI: 1930s-1940s alternate military aircraft

[tomo pauk]

Okay, designer without a degree (or with?) - what kind of alternate aircraft you would've like to have existed in the specified time frame? Preferably with piston engines on board, but don't let that limits you too much
Since this is fiction, it should be realistic, not just only to inspire people's future time-lines. Basically, historical eqipment and technology of the era, mixed and matched for better end result.

An example:
Westland decides to produce Whirlwind around RR Merlin engines instead of RR Peregrines in OTL. The resulting aircraft is armed with 4 cannons (1st drum fed, later belt-fed), size similar to the Fw 187, shape similar to the OTL Whirly, does 380 mph in 1940, 400 mph in 1941. Widely produced in Westland, that does not get Spitfire production as per OTL.

 

[edgeworthy]

The Martin-Baker MB1-5 Series, always loved these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin-Baker_MB_3

Eric Brown, and he flew almost everything, considered the MB-5 an outstanding design.

They seemed to be viable alternatives to several Allied designs, excellent range, speed and manuevrability. Novel pnueumatic controls, easing maintenance, and less hazardous than hydraulics. And managed to get 6*20mm Cannon with 200 RPG into the wings.

 

[Driftless]

How about the Arsenal VG.39bis with a proposed 1600hp Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine, or an alternative VG.40 with a Merlin?

That should have been a "hot" and useful fighter. Separate the plane from French military aviation doctrine and politics.

6 x 7.5mm machine guns
1 x 20 mm cannon
Speed: 625km/h - 388mph
Ceiling 11,000m - 36,000+feet

 

[sonofpegasus]

OK, My old war horse a British LRMPA of 1940, big wingspan (S29 with 112' span wings) version of the Short Sterling. More fuel in the wing instead off bomb cells. Engines would be four Fairey Monarch H24's of 2000Hp each on 100 octane in late 1939. Atlantic Gap! What Atlantic Gap? Result a very different U boat campaign in the winter of 41/42.

 

[tomo pauk]

Alternate P-44:
Instead of envisioning their new fighter around the uncertain (and lated abandoned) P&W R-2180-A Twin Hornet, 'Seversky' uses the Wright R-2600 as a basis. The 1st prototype, XP-44, powered by R-2600-7 that was sea level rated for 1700 HP up to 25000 ft, flies for the 1st time in September 1940, and before 1941 it is joined by an armed (6 x .50) YP-44. 400 mph is achieved. Not everything goes by the plan, with controls of the turbo playing a rough game both with engines and pilots (one aircraft and pilot lost in Feb 1941), also another model of turbo is installed. With problems more or less cured, the series production starts in June 1941, the 1st squadrons are formed by September of 1941. Republic ('Seversky' company re-named) has 800 aircraft on orded by this time, and new factory is to be built in Evansville, Indiana.
By the time Japanese attacked, only 3 squdrons are active. As the production is ramping up, so are the modifications. The wing racks, licensed from Lockheed, are installed, protection is being added. Such aircraft are sent to Alaska 1st, then to Havaii. In the lead up to the Battle of Midway, two squadrons are sent there. The Japanese aviators were shocked by big aircraft that were supposedly going 700 km/h (and exgaggeration, of course), with one squdron tasked with defense of Midway, another with escort of the speedy B-26 bombers. Joint effort of the USAF, USN and Marine aircraft and AAA meant IJN is down by 4 carriers, the USN just having Yorktown limping to Havaii.
The 1st P-44 in the UK, this time the 'B' version (1750 HP up to 29000 ft, full protection, 2 x 75 and later 2 x 165 gal drop tanks), arrived by late 1942, and both pilots, mechanics and brass were enduring hardships of European winter in order to have their units ready for Spring fight. So when P-44Bs started to escort the heavies in March, the LW was rudely surprised. The low number of Fw 190s was also out-performed above 25000 ft, and were in due course removed east of Rhine, with reinforcements rushed from Eastern front.

 

[riggerrob]

Budd Conestoga freighter.
Canadian-built awfrieghters.

CCF Hurricanes built with sub-components supplied by North American Aerodynamics: Meredith radiators, pitot carb inlets, laminar wings, Malcolm hoods, 6 big Browning MGs.
CCF never bids on the Helldiver contract.

DeHavilland converts earlier to making Mosquitos .... instead of assembling Tiger Moth kits.

Fairchild Industries of Canada fixates on building sub-components for Grumman.? I'm at

 

[fb111a]

Lockheed A-39 Juggernaut
Although plagued by development trouble, the A-39 (formerly the P-58 Chain Lightning) finally hit its stride when it was equipped with the R-2800-73 engines. The A-39 became a powerful battlefield interdiction aircraft that would see action late in World War II, as well as in the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Desert Storm, and the War on Terror. It was in production from 1943 to 1953, then saw production resume from 1965 to 1973, from 1982-1990, and from 2005 to the present.

The plane's success was centered on four 37mm cannon with 300 rounds each. The Juggernaut first saw action during the Battle of the Bulge, where it became known as the Tiger Killer. Among the tanks the A-39 claimed was the one used by Joachim Peiper. During the Korean War, the A-39s wreaked havoc on North Korean and Chinese supply lines. In Vietnam, the plane proved to be a valuable in close air support and was used by forward air controllers, a mission it continues to carry out in Operation Desert Storm. Retired in 1996, the plane made a comeback in the War on Terror, where it became a superb counter-insurgency plane.

Performance: Maximum speed: 453 mph at 25,000 feet, cruising speed: 290 mph at 25,000 feet, initial climb rate: 2660 feet per minute, service ceiling: 38,400 feet, normal range: 1400 miles, maximum range: 2850 miles. Weights: 21,624 pounds empty, 39,192 pounds normal loaded, 43,000 pounds maximum. Dimensions: wingspan 70 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 0 inches, wing area, 600 square feet. Armament: 4 37mm cannon, 5,000 pounds of bombs, 70mm Hydra rockets, 127mm Zuni rockets, AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, GBU-12 Paveway laser-guided bombs, GBU-38 Joint Direct Attack Munitions, GBU-54 Laser JDAMs.

 

[zert]

I have nothing to add at this time, but I always enjoy these type pf threads.

Thanks for the posters so far and in the future.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

For the fleet air arm.
Hawker had a 20 year history of providing variants of its land based fighters for use from carriers.

Designed in 37/38 a version of the Hurricane with a Hercules on the front instead of a merlin. (The FAA preferred radials).
And folding wings, metal covered, designed to be thinner than the land based version after Hawker took a look at the spitfire.
Containing either 4 20mm or 6 .5s. (The FAA wanted a bigger punch).

To go with it - a Hercules powered Henley, as a dive bomber.
The OTL Henley shared many components with the Hurricane, so this would be an extension of that work.
And the FAA were looking for a dive bomber.
Folding wings, using components from the Hercules Hurricane (see above), with Fairey-Youngman flaps for dive bombing and ease of landing on.
2 20mm or 4 .5s in the wings.
A change from internal to external bomb carriage would be needed to make it a proper dive bomber (I think).
Would the end result have enough available length to carry a torpedo instead of a bomb?
The OTL Swordfish was a dive bomber as well as torpedo, so this could be sold as a replacement.
If so there is a plausible 300 mph dive/torpedo bomber with a decent gun armament available in '38/'39.

In 40/41, when hawker developed the Typhoon, do a parallel version of the sea hurricane, with a Centaurus on the front.
I think one of the Typhoon prototypes had a Centaurus, but the air ministry weren't keen.
In this timeline, the fleet air arm would demand it.
And, of course, with the sea Hurricane having thinner wings the Typhoon and Sea Typhoon would inherit them as well.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Fairey Battle with the original Griffon engine, which was suspended so that Rolls Royce could concentrate on the Merlin or redesign the Battle around two Merlins.

Handley Page Hampden with a pair of Hercules engines in 1939. The first RAF aircraft was the Saro Lerwick and IIRC the RAF had 3 on charge when war was declared. IOTL Handley Page did propose one later and the RAF liked it, but they also wanted as many Halifaxes as the firm could produce.

 

[Some Bloke]

Different continuity/timeline from the rest but here goes.

PoD: 1932, the Vicker's Jockey test plane is not lost and is fitted with a Bristol Mercury engine as planned.
New test data is incorporated into the follow on design, including more streamlining of the fuselage and surfaces,
and the Vickers Venom has its first flight, fully equipped and armoured, in 1936.

Despite the improvements, the Hurricane is still the faster plane and adopted by the RAF.
Tests continue with a sleeve valve Perseus engine and this version is ordered by the Fleet Air Arm in 1938
instead of the Spitfire, as well as by the RAF in response to specification F.5/34. The Venom also saw service in
the Australian, Canadian, South African, and Indian Airforces.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Fw 187 with Czech-built HS 12Y engines.
No weight penalty vs. Jumo 210, so the rework is done by August of 1939 (start in May 1939). 1st flight tests are encouraging, totaly trashing the Bf 110 and equaling the Bf 109E, but with greater range. The RLM orders the aircraft in quantity, with production of Bf 110 winding down and eventually cancelled. As a main long-range fighter of the LW during the BoB, it was reckoned as a main menace by the RAF, able to escort the bombers up to Midlands. A miscalculation of the RLM, great production efforts by the UK, introduction of the Spitfire III and finally the onset of bad weather meant that LW didn't win the battle.
In the meantime, with cancellation of the Bf 110, Falke finally got the DB 601A engine that pushed it above 600 km/h, though the installation of drop tanks was too late for the BoB. The installation of all-MG (12 guns) armament was also welcomed, pending the arrival of belt-fed cannons.
Another variant was the G&R 14N engined one, with dive brakes, slated to replace the vulnerable Stuka. The long ranged and fast Falkes were instrumental in war against the Soviets in 1941, the radial-engined version receiving a MK 101 cannon in 1942 to kill tanks.

 

[Zheng He]

Fairey Fulmar designed from the beginning as a dive bomber instead of a heavy fleet fighter. Only four guns instead of eight, a credible rear gun for the observer and loadouts of one 1,000 pound bomb on the centerline, 1 500 on the centerline and 2 250s on the wings pylons, three 250s, 2 500s (wing pylons) and a 60 gallon tank on the centerline, or 2 250s and a 60 gallon tank on the centerline.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Mustang with Packard Merlin V-1650-1, produced from mid/late 1942 on.
The British send to the NAA the Merlin XX, just like they historically did it for the Curtiss in order to have it installed on the P-40 for tests; the V-1650-1 is basically 'Americanized' Merlin XX. The 1st prototype of the 'Mustang II', as the British intended to call it, went well in May 1941, and within a few days several flights were done, with 420+ mph achieved. This is received well by the British, and order of 500 is placed. USAAF is a bit shocked, the simple aircraft is every bit a performer, or indeed better than their best new fighters, the P-38 and P-47. But, after few test flights, they also make a comitment for 350 copies, thus necessitating the NAA making Inglewood the Mustang-only factory complex once B-25 is to be produced by Vultee, as agreed. Only the armament will be a bit light for the taste of USAAF, four .50s per fighter are contracted.
1st series produced Mustang II, or P-51 as the USAAF is calling it, is delivered by August 1942, and 1st 'American' combat is in March of 1943, in North Africa. RAF's fighters beat it by 2 weeks, the fighter does well against the Fw 190s located in France. The only weak spot is rate of climb above 25000 ft, Mustang II is a heavy aircraft for a simple V-12 engine. The 2-stage Merlin is already tested aboard, it will take until late 1943 to have those in service, however.
In the meantime, the Mustang II ranges far and wide against Luftwaffe, the major effort was flown in concert with P-44s (from post #5 here) and P-38s in May of 1943 to 'celebrate' the attack on Pantelleria. Mustangs, Rockets and Lightnings make LW pay 3 aircraft for each Allied aircraft lost in the mission to Duesseldorf, bomber losses are in single digits by June in the ETO.
A knock-on effect is that RAF will be outfitting their Spitfires with rear fuselage tanks, 1st with 30 gallons, later bigger if possible. Hawker is instructred to make Tempest with at least 200 imp gals of internal fuel

 

[SactoMan101]

Focke-Wulf Fw 190C-1

Operational by fall 1943, the Fw 190C-1, with its 430 mph top speed and excellent high-altitude performance thanks to the Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine, gave the Luftwaffe a plane that could fight on essentially equal terms with the P-51B/C when that is introduced in the end of 1943 and the currently existing P-47's. As such, it takes a LOT longer for the Allies to gain air superiority over Germany than OTL. It also forces the British to build Supermarine Spitfire XIV's and Hawker Tempest V's with drop tanks as a means to counter the Fw 190C-1 further into Europe.

 

[Driftless]

The Norwegian government orders the 24 Curtis Hawk 75A-6 (Twin Wasp R-1830) a year earlier than OTL, taking delivery by Sept 1939. In addition, they order the 36 Curtis Hawk 75A-8 (Cyclone R1820) earlier as well, taking first deliveries in January 1940.

The 75A-6's are equipped with skis for winter service, thus making any frozen lake bed a viable airfield. The The Hawks were armed with 4 x 7.92 Brownings. The Hawks, plus the available Gloster Gladiators gave the Germans a hot reception on April 9, 1940. Flying out of the freshly siezed airfield in Aalborg, Denmark, the primary Luftwaffe targets in Norway were beyond the range of Me-109's, so the Me-110 was the sole German fighter. It was faster but not as nimble than the few Norwegian fighters. The Hawks shot down 7 Me-110's, while losing 4 of their own on April 9; meanwhile they also shot down 7 Fallschirmjaeger carrying Ju-52's and damaged 9 more around Fornebu airfield near Oslo - a key first day invasion target. Those significant losses of the parachute troops put the German invasion timetable at risk. The delay bought the Norwegians time to move the King and government out of Oslo, clear out the countries gold bullion reserves AND allow more time for the army to mobilize.

 

[Zheng He]

Navalized monoplane variant of the Gloster Gladiator with retractable undercarriage. Enters service in mid-1938 and is the primary RN carrier fighter when the war breaks out.

 

[Driftless]

Grumann P-50/A-22

The Grumann Skyrocket (long-nose, tricycle landing geared) XP-50 is picked in place of the XP-49 and produced in limited numbers as a radial engine alternative interceptor. It also finds a real niche in the South Pacific as an attack plane. 2 x 20mm nose mounted cannons plus 2 x .50 MG, high speed, endurance, and tough; it proved to be a very useful plane.

 

[Just Leo]

Here's something nobody thought of.

 

[PhilKearny]

What? A new way to make the Spitfire even more difficult to manufacture?

Here's something nobody thought of. View attachment 277160