What was the most likely period for Islam for a reformation?

Being theist or agnostic doesn’t make you atheist. That’s what people don’t understand about Plato. They aren’t Marxist or modern atheist. The general concept of god and afterlife is arguably normal human feeling. I’m agnostic but superstitious somewhat. Also I was saying he did not know details of afterlife just that general instinct and feelings.

Atheist is actually smallest of non religious groups even now. Most are theist and deist like. It’s like calling Albert Einstein religious because he thought universe or his science “proved” god existed.

Plato tried his best to avoid contradictions in logic or at least minimize them. So not he probably think modernist are anarchist and dumb. The concept is nothing after death is more off putting then hell to many and seems more strange/foreign/impossible. To ancients the atheist is basically someone with no loyalties to anyone(tribe, city state/polis, kingdom, empire, religion, and etc). You were basically “not to be trusted and had no loyalty to anyone”.
I just think you're trying to render the discontinuity between the Christian Theologians and the Greek Platonists/Aristotelians much larger than it is. Christianity asserted itself during its rise as a philosophy, not a cultic religion, as did then-contemporary Judaism. Christianity and Judaism's type of religion, though it now dominates much of the globe, was very unusual. There's not this radical break between Christianity and the western pre-Christian philosophical tradition, there's a continuation of the traditions of the predecessors. Indeed, Christianity embraces much of Roman philosophy's preferred forms of metaphysics (Neo-Platonism) and ethics (essentially Stoic), possibly as early as Paul's writings, certainly soon thereafter.

At any rate, to the point of the thread, I think that empowering the Mu'tazila is probably your best bet on forming a more rationalist, less clerical Islam, but ultimately this is not necessarily helpful. Islam has not "reformed" in the sense of the Western Protestant Reformation because it is a totally different form of religion and has a totally different theory of the state, law, and authority than Western Christianity did. And the reformation brought with it a century of war and some of the most stringent theocratic governments in Western history (Calvin's Geneva, the Puritans). What brought about the enlightenment was not Protestantism, rising education, or rising wealth, but bitterness at the European Wars of Religion and the need for a non-revelatory standard of truth on which to build ideas of the state.
 

Paradoxer

Banned
I just think you're trying to render the discontinuity between the Christian Theologians and the Greek Platonists/Aristotelians much larger than it is. Christianity asserted itself during its rise as a philosophy, not a cultic religion, as did then-contemporary Judaism. Christianity and Judaism's type of religion, though it now dominates much of the globe, was very unusual. There's not this radical break between Christianity and the western pre-Christian philosophical tradition, there's a continuation of the traditions of the predecessors. Indeed, Christianity embraces much of Roman philosophy's preferred forms of metaphysics (Neo-Platonism) and ethics (essentially Stoic), possibly as early as Paul's writings, certainly soon thereafter.

At any rate, to the point of the thread, I think that empowering the Mu'tazila is probably your best bet on forming a more rationalist, less clerical Islam, but ultimately this is not necessarily helpful. Islam has not "reformed" in the sense of the Western Protestant Reformation because it is a totally different form of religion and has a totally different theory of the state, law, and authority than Western Christianity did. And the reformation brought with it a century of war and some of the most stringent theocratic governments in Western history (Calvin's Geneva, the Puritans). What brought about the enlightenment was not Protestantism, rising education, or rising wealth, but bitterness at the European Wars of Religion and the need for a non-revelatory standard of truth on which to build ideas of the state.
But without reformation you don’t have religious wars to help encourage that and turn people away from secularism. I always hear some Americans bring up religious wars in Europe as what Islamic world “needs to go through to learn” themselves maybe that “hey we should probably calm down on infighting and fanaticism even if we don’t like each other or agree”.

Also I don’t discount the continuity between two but how at their cores they should be incompatible oxymorons that upset natural follow of religion more akin to India or Far East.

I will ask you this. How many still talk about Plato or know who he is vs Saint Thomas? Many of criticism of Christianity by people like Voltaire did not defend flaws or irrationality of pagans or even philosophers of old just pointed out how Christianity created more problems and set Europeans back more then help.

To person like Voltaire who was well versed in works of his time and past all gains Europeans made was made in spite of Christianity even if some small parts of it tied in. The point to him was Europeans did not need Christianity for mortality but philosophy and religion more like Far East. The man literally read whole Bible and said “this is complete bullshit and contradictory to itself at multiple points”. There reason they use to not let average masses understand Latin mass or be able to read it. Drives some away.

To give you comparison, do you consider CCP China a continuation of Chinese dynasties over centuries and millenniums? Even if they try to build legitimacy from past ideas like heavenly mandate or whatever else? Communism is still originally foreign influence adapted to China flavor/liking. They aren’t a continuation of Qing or Republic before it
 
To give you comparison, do you consider CCP China a continuation of Chinese dynasties over centuries and millenniums? Even if they try to build legitimacy from past ideas like heavenly mandate or whatever else
This is a bad example, as china completely collapse post qing anyway
 

Paradoxer

Banned
This is a bad example, as china completely collapse post qing anyway
Ok, Russian Empire to Soviet Union. For better one. The point is like Marxist they completely uprooted and change culture even through direct means or social engineering at times.
 

Deleted member 166308

To give you comparison, do you consider CCP China a continuation of Chinese dynasties over centuries and millenniums? Even if they try to build legitimacy from past ideas like heavenly mandate or whatever else? Communism is still originally foreign influence adapted to China flavor/liking. They aren’t a continuation of Qing or Republic before it
I'm sure in the future, people will think of the KMT and the CCP as just another Chinese dynasty. The CCP is very different from the Qing, but the same is true for the Qing and the Ming, the Ming and the Yuan, and the Yuan and the Liao.
 
I'm sure in the future, people will think of the KMT and the CCP as just another Chinese dynasty. The CCP is very different from the Qing, but the same is true for the Qing and the Ming, the Ming and the Yuan, and the Yuan and the Liao.
KMT wasn't a legit goverment, was one of the factions post qing to begin with. Commies won, thanks some sheer luck and external factors but they won.

Ok, Russian Empire to Soviet Union. For better one. The point is like Marxist they completely uprooted and change culture even through direct means or social engineering at times.
This is a little more precise but some people argue that the SU was just the Tsarist era with a red cape.
 

Paradoxer

Banned
KMT wasn't a legit goverment, was one of the factions post qing to begin with. Commies won, thanks some sheer luck and external factors but they won.


This is a little more precise but some people argue that the SU was just the Tsarist era with a red cape.
Which I always disagree with it. Stalin being Georgian, the SSRs that did promote regional identities the imperial Russian favoring regime would not. Hell before Stalin purge many officials in USSR aren’t even Russians. Had some Ukrainians lead it too.

Marxist Revolutions I think is closest modern parallel we get to see how impactful or changing religion/ideology can be on society especially when taken to extreme. Some Russians in 1920 considered their country “gone” or under occupation. Christianity transformation of European society might have been even more dramatic and shaking. Hard to examine “ground work” and lower class elements pre industrial era.

With Soviets we got film and pictures.

With Romans closest we got is pompeii which did reaffirm and prove some of beliefs about pre Greco Roman society. Simple put they had a rather “jock” mentality and unfiltered bunch compared to Christian or eastern counterparts. Literally had penis necklaces and carved dicks and sexual jokes in public places.

The Christians were uptight irrational fanatics at times but not completely wrong about some vanity and even perversion in Rome which did get bad close to end. Venus temples were some times upscale and nice “respected” brothels. Romans separated work and pleasure and had stoic tendencies but when they party they party hard and let loose to “filter it out”. Going to brothel was almost like going to bar. As long as you don’t go “overboard” with it it’s just you getting a “quick nut”. They even had morning after and birth control plant that I’m suspicious if Christians destroyed or made harder to get due to their beliefs about sex and not even pulling out. That flower medicine recipe was lost once church took over
 
Christianity got lucky with coming from ground up and one of its concubines popping out bastard by name of Constantine who then proceeded to organize religion and it’s dogma to their liking.
ignoring the weird language what do you mean by organize the religion ? Constantine was not a theologian he did (aside from making the councils possible) little to organize dogma

Platonism at least among pagans and non Christians were some of biggest Critics of church and Christian dogma. Some of only surviving criticism of Christians are from Christian apologist sources during time counter arguments to criticism. That right there tells me the church likely intentionally lost or “forget” some parts of Plato or classics of it was used against them.
this is true we have critics like Porphyry as for intentionally forgetting its more like selective no one has ever claimed that the church adopted all of plato or the neo platonic work rather the belive that won out in the early church was god gave the greeks wisdom so lets use what they have learn to prove our religion.

Monks and clergy sitting on books, literature, and decay of classical world does not mean they saved or preserved it. Just happened not to destroy it or always understand what it fully is when they can’t even read damn thing.

The church did not care to preserve what did not serve there interests or happened to just come across and see it useful in justifying whatever current nonsense they are pushing.

I say this as someone who learned about Thomas and Plato and Aristotle from church academy themselves originally. They are wrong about Plato like Thomas was and did not fully understand him especially his “Nuances” and word play or logical circles.

Christians are greatest at rewording stuff or twisting logic even when it contradicts itself.

During Christianization of Rome they did openly burn, desecrate, and destroy stuff that conflicted with dogma or came off as “blasphemy/heathenism” like Statue of Victory(a god damn war memorial) and eternal flame in Rome.

If you believe they did not burn, hide, or censor the censuses and records that conflict with Christians narratives too much your naive. Yes barbarians destroyed a lot but not everything
pretty much borderline dark ages myth rhetoric here https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/ tim o niell did a good job on presenting how not only they did not destroy as much as some said but did preserve as for your argument
Christianity sure has a habit of promoting figures that they would or actually did persecute during their life time. Like ones who try to take credit for physics and Isaac newton while overlooking his conflicts with church.
what do you mean by conflicts ? the mans ideas were essentially heresy (Arianism and others) yet such views were talked like Samuel Clarke were openly challenging the Thirty-Nine Articles

any way a recommendation please do not use the forum to debate religion... much less possible bad history to do so so take the anti Abrahamic religion "rhetoric" to reddit or quora or heck the chat
 
Which I always disagree with it. Stalin being Georgian, the SSRs that did promote regional identities the imperial Russian favoring regime would not. Hell before Stalin purge many officials in USSR aren’t even Russians. Had some Ukrainians lead it too.
even after the purges, krutchev was a russian but that is not the point, on a way, the URSS was a more inclusive Russia empire but was still the same russian empire at heart.
 
But without reformation you don’t have religious wars to help encourage that and turn people away from secularism. I always hear some Americans bring up religious wars in Europe as what Islamic world “needs to go through to learn” themselves maybe that “hey we should probably calm down on infighting and fanaticism even if we don’t like each other or agree”.
It's weird to have to say this, but Islam doesn't "have" to do anything to stop fighting over its religious differences except come to the conclusion that they shouldn't. I'm not interested in recreating the European religious course in the Middle East, for one thing I think the fall of Christianity in Europe is a disaster. Nonetheless, they have to come to their own conclusions about life, the universe, and everything. There's no "needs to go through to learn", they just need to come to that conclusion on their own as opposed to at the end of some Westerner's gun.
Also I don’t discount the continuity between two but how at their cores they should be incompatible oxymorons that upset natural follow of religion more akin to India or Far East.
I will ask you this. How many still talk about Plato or know who he is vs Saint Thomas? Many of criticism of Christianity by people like Voltaire did not defend flaws or irrationality of pagans or even philosophers of old just pointed out how Christianity created more problems and set Europeans back more then help.
One, picking Thomas instead of Augustine is sort of a cheat. But people think more of Plato because Thomas and Augustine cited him. Aquinas is literally brings Aristotelianism back to the West and with it the works of people like Al-Ghazali, all of which would be critical in the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment. I don't think that Voltaire was right on this question, I actually think that the Scholastics educated quite well and that their theory of the universe was substantially better than the Roman one. Voltaire was incisive in his way, but he wasn't right on the merits. The Romans were an awful repressive culture that only fleetingly provided for the possibility of intellectual debate. Their religious beliefs were highly superstitious, their laws were manifestly unjust. They exiled or executed philosophers who inconvenienced them and violently suppressed such notorious organizations as funerary organizations or non-compliant religious groups such as Jews and Christians. That's not even getting into the various issues They were many things, but they were not a broad minded people as a general rule.
To person like Voltaire who was well versed in works of his time and past all gains Europeans made was made in spite of Christianity even if some small parts of it tied in. The point to him was Europeans did not need Christianity for mortality but philosophy and religion more like Far East. The man literally read whole Bible and said “this is complete bullshit and contradictory to itself at multiple points”. There reason they use to not let average masses understand Latin mass or be able to read it. Drives some away.
I think you're really working out your own dislike of Christianity here, which I disagree with but isn't the topic of this thread at all and I think you should stop insulting a religion in the non-politics section of the board. I do not think the West would've been better served by Confucian, Legalist, or Buddhist thinking than Christian thinking, I think Voltaire's theory here is just... bad.
To give you comparison, do you consider CCP China a continuation of Chinese dynasties over centuries and millenniums? Even if they try to build legitimacy from past ideas like heavenly mandate or whatever else? Communism is still originally foreign influence adapted to China flavor/liking. They aren’t a continuation of Qing or Republic before it
I mean, yeah, I consider the CCP to be a continuation of the Chinese dynasties, and the USSR to be a continuation of the Russian Empire, because they both have obviously huge continuities. But I think one problematic factor here for your argument is that Christianity was born and raised in the Roman Empire (the Persian portion of the Church did eventually become pre-eminent in size and prestige for a period, but that was much later than the period we're discussing), whereas Marxism was born in Western Europe, so many of the continuities were stronger.
 
But without reformation you don’t have religious wars to help encourage that and turn people away from secularism. I always hear some Americans bring up religious wars in Europe as what Islamic world “needs to go through to learn” themselves maybe that “hey we should probably calm down on infighting and fanaticism even if we don’t like each other or agree”.
the americans who say that are kind of misguided while the reformation did cause religious violence its not a fact that said things directly led to secularism ignoring the fact that the wars were just as political in nature The switching of sides of nobles and kingdoms, the alliances examples of armies of different confessionals uniting against another enemy and one can argue that even in places were the catholic church was strong the clergy ha been suborned to royal domination and economically weakened
and this trend began with the centralization in the late middle ages
 

Paradoxer

Banned
It's weird to have to say this, but Islam doesn't "have" to do anything to stop fighting over its religious differences except come to the conclusion that they shouldn't. I'm not interested in recreating the European religious course in the Middle East, for one thing I think the fall of Christianity in Europe is a disaster. Nonetheless, they have to come to their own conclusions about life, the universe, and everything. There's no "needs to go through to learn", they just need to come to that conclusion on their own as opposed to at the end of some Westerner's gun.


One, picking Thomas instead of Augustine is sort of a cheat. But people think more of Plato because Thomas and Augustine cited him. Aquinas is literally brings Aristotelianism back to the West and with it the works of people like Al-Ghazali, all of which would be critical in the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment. I don't think that Voltaire was right on this question, I actually think that the Scholastics educated quite well and that their theory of the universe was substantially better than the Roman one. Voltaire was incisive in his way, but he wasn't right on the merits. The Romans were an awful repressive culture that only fleetingly provided for the possibility of intellectual debate. Their religious beliefs were highly superstitious, their laws were manifestly unjust. They exiled or executed philosophers who inconvenienced them and violently suppressed such notorious organizations as funerary organizations or non-compliant religious groups such as Jews and Christians. That's not even getting into the various issues They were many things, but they were not a broad minded people as a general rule.

I think you're really working out your own dislike of Christianity here, which I disagree with but isn't the topic of this thread at all and I think you should stop insulting a religion in the non-politics section of the board. I do not think the West would've been better served by Confucian, Legalist, or Buddhist thinking than Christian thinking, I think Voltaire's theory here is just... bad.

I mean, yeah, I consider the CCP to be a continuation of the Chinese dynasties, and the USSR to be a continuation of the Russian Empire, because they both have obviously huge continuities. But I think one problematic factor here for your argument is that Christianity was born and raised in the Roman Empire (the Persian portion of the Church did eventually become pre-eminent in size and prestige for a period, but that was much later than the period we're discussing), whereas Marxism was born in Western Europe, so many of the continuities were stronger.
Marxism has been argued to has some elements of Christian morality but in secular form(original sin = collective guilt one example. Also utopia idea but in secular form). Nietzsche points this out.

But I think your being overly dismissive of Roman culture. I always say them and Greek got a “jock” mentality. Hell frat life in US and western sports is centered around much of what they started. Unlike the Greeks they spent less time thinking about abstract and empirical but how to make their lives better, more convenient, and glorious. Build cities and aqueducts(more engineering society then a social science bunch). Have Theater and brothels. Bring back gold, women, and food from conquest. They started off as just tribe of not far above animals and like predators kept conquering until they could not physically do so anymore at least early on. They copy Greeks on a lot but did more with it. They were brutes but people mistake brutish behavior for regressive. They were often simple but creative and efficient.

Lastly, this goes for all humans we sadly often learn hard way. Not always but often lol. Those other ways are possible and preferably. I just type to often assume worse of people impulsives
 

Paradoxer

Banned
ignoring the weird language what do you mean by organize the religion ? Constantine was not a theologian he did (aside from making the councils possible) little to organize dogma


this is true we have critics like Porphyry as for intentionally forgetting its more like selective no one has ever claimed that the church adopted all of plato or the neo platonic work rather the belive that won out in the early church was god gave the greeks wisdom so lets use what they have learn to prove our religion.


pretty much borderline dark ages myth rhetoric here https://historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/ tim o niell did a good job on presenting how not only they did not destroy as much as some said but did preserve as for your argument

what do you mean by conflicts ? the mans ideas were essentially heresy (Arianism and others) yet such views were talked like Samuel Clarke were openly challenging the Thirty-Nine Articles

any way a recommendation please do not use the forum to debate religion... much less possible bad history to do so so take the anti Abrahamic religion "rhetoric" to reddit or quora or heck the chat
I only state myself. I am not arguing on religion but alternative interpretation of it. I’m just blunt with my opinion, view, or analysis of things. Also we got to go over how you get something like reformation(enlightenment era might be better term like I previously mentioned) in Islam. Any new school can technically pop up whenever right?

How does a new Islamic school just form? Like the procedures?
 
I only state myself. I am not arguing on religion but alternative interpretation of it. I’m just blunt with my opinion, view, or analysis of things. Also we got to go over how you get something like reformation(enlightenment era might be better term like I previously mentioned) in Islam. Any new school can technically pop up whenever right?

How does a new Islamic school just form? Like the procedures?
and thats fine and all but many of your comments border the line from arguing based on what actually happen and how we apply to another religion to wierd comments that border on bad myths worthy of those athiest in reddit , this is why i say i dont get what you mean by this since you do say a lot of correct things and some others that as mentioned are borderline bad history i dont know just trying to not de rail the conversation
but some things related aquinas impact while big is oversimplified by some that he invented the western view that one need logic to understand god
2) in the islamic world for a reformation it really must be though which line of though the greek one of the meditterian muslim world or another school in Persia ? depends also on the period also if we want the islamic world to reach their Enlightenment one must ask which type ? the type that more moderate one that sought accommodation between reform and the traditional systems of power and faith? or radical one

the Enlightenment depended on much more than just the reformation but then again for Islam the first one is easier to archive as for reformation what would the causes for it
luther was not the first to criticize the state of the church jonh hus and others did so and the late medieval politics in italy made the papacy with a gate way for some dudes to make their agenda or home town have a political advantage luther went from i want to reform to radical but some core ideas stayed the same , so one must make the reformation of the muslim world to its political context and how close does it have to be the reformation of the otl
 
the americans who say that are kind of misguided while the reformation did cause religious violence its not a fact that said things directly led to secularism ignoring the fact that the wars were just as political in nature The switching of sides of nobles and kingdoms, the alliances examples of armies of different confessionals uniting against another enemy and one can argue that even in places were the catholic church was strong the clergy ha been suborned to royal domination and economically weakened
and this trend began with the centralization in the late middle ages
I've got to say having followed the early history of the Reformation, at least, while there was some flickering of priorities and factionalism, religion was very, very important to the wars and it was perceived as being very important to the wars. The Reformation certainly served the political ends of many rulers, that's why there was a reformation and not a proto-protestant martyrdom of Luther. But I would say that they were self-consciously understood as religious wars and that those wars were followed by a period in which deism and religious skepticism were much more common, and I think those two things are connected and important.

The problem with an Islamic reformation is that Islam doesn't have a single unified church which can reach a nadir of its moral power to coincide with a nadir of its political power. Islamic law is practiced by clerics, this is one of their primary functions.
Marxism has been argued to has some elements of Christian morality but in secular form(original sin = collective guilt one example. Also utopia idea but in secular form). Nietzsche points this out.
This is wrong. Marxism doesn't promote belief in collective guilt - In fact, Marxism rejects guilt and responsibility as meaningful categories. Pure bourgeois sentimentality - There are classes, they have power from specific sources, and they create ideologies and governments to justify and preserve that power. That's the Marxist doctrine of history. But I wouldn't really argue that there's no continuity between Christianity and Marxism (would be weird for me, a Christian socialist). It's just that Marxism is from Western Europe and not from Russia,

But I think your being overly dismissive of Roman culture. I always say them and Greek got a “jock” mentality. Hell frat life in US and western sports is centered around much of what they started. Unlike the Greeks they spent less time thinking about abstract and empirical but how to make their lives better, more convenient, and glorious. Build cities and aqueducts(more engineering society then a social science bunch). Have Theater and brothels. Bring back gold, women, and food from conquest. They started off as just tribe of not far above animals and like predators kept conquering until they could not physically do so anymore at least early on. They copy Greeks on a lot but did more with it. They were brutes but people mistake brutish behavior for regressive. They were often simple but creative and efficient.
This is one of the most weirdly racist things I've ever read. "Yes they were barely better than animals, but!" is just not something one should find oneself saying. The Romans built some cool stuff, nobody's denying their ability to build cool stuff, but I don't think they contributed to human well-being or that Europe would've been substantially better off if they'd lived longer. I don't sincerely think their contributions to philosophy or to the human welfare or their prospective chance of doing so pre-Christianity were all that great, I'm not terribly nuanced on this point.
 

Paradoxer

Banned
I've got to say having followed the early history of the Reformation, at least, while there was some flickering of priorities and factionalism, religion was very, very important to the wars and it was perceived as being very important to the wars. The Reformation certainly served the political ends of many rulers, that's why there was a reformation and not a proto-protestant martyrdom of Luther. But I would say that they were self-consciously understood as religious wars and that those wars were followed by a period in which deism and religious skepticism were much more common, and I think those two things are connected and important.

The problem with an Islamic reformation is that Islam doesn't have a single unified church which can reach a nadir of its moral power to coincide with a nadir of its political power. Islamic law is practiced by clerics, this is one of their primary functions.

This is wrong. Marxism doesn't promote belief in collective guilt - In fact, Marxism rejects guilt and responsibility as meaningful categories. Pure bourgeois sentimentality - There are classes, they have power from specific sources, and they create ideologies and governments to justify and preserve that power. That's the Marxist doctrine of history. But I wouldn't really argue that there's no continuity between Christianity and Marxism (would be weird for me, a Christian socialist). It's just that Marxism is from Western Europe and not from Russia,


This is one of the most weirdly racist things I've ever read. "Yes they were barely better than animals, but!" is just not something one should find oneself saying. The Romans built some cool stuff, nobody's denying their ability to build cool stuff, but I don't think they contributed to human well-being or that Europe would've been substantially better off if they'd lived longer. I don't sincerely think their contributions to philosophy or to the human welfare or their prospective chance of doing so pre-Christianity were all that great, I'm not terribly nuanced on this point.
All humans are animals. We all were not that far off from woods then. Why is animal a insult. I use it to mean living off instinct and trying to survive daily so you really don’t overthink things or world in general as much
 
I've got to say having followed the early history of the Reformation, at least, while there was some flickering of priorities and factionalism, religion was very, very important to the wars and it was perceived as being very important to the wars. The Reformation certainly served the political ends of many rulers, that's why there was a reformation and not a proto-protestant martyrdom of Luther. But I would say that they were self-consciously understood as religious wars and that those wars were followed by a period in which deism and religious skepticism were much more common, and I think those two things are connected and important.

The problem with an Islamic reformation is that Islam doesn't have a single unified church which can reach a nadir of its moral power to coincide with a nadir of its political power. Islamic law is practiced by clerics, this is one of their primary functions.
1)i fully agree that religion played a massive role and heavily disagree with those who tried to white wash it but it was not THE reason as many say it was
So in summary my position is that So the “Wars of Religion” consequences creating the nation state of the common imagining is wrong the evolution of the nation state did not solve it rather in part helped the wars

Of course people in the 17th century and 18tj saw it another way i mean these arguments come from Voltaire Gibbon etc but as we can see especially with gibbon ( the man's name is disliked by many who study byzantine history ) is that they had extreme reactionary ideas it does show us what the people though of it but then again not always what's they though is correct
 
But they lost their powers after 150 years or so after they had so many bodyguards that the bodyguards effectively took over.
 
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