What if Saxe-Lauenburg became an electorate of the HRE instead of Saxe-Wittenberg?

[Moctezuma1466]

In 1180 the giant influential duchy of Saxony was partitioned due to Heinrich dem Löwen didn't support Barbarossa. Years after the electoral votes were created and given to different states like the palatinate, bohemia etc. One of them was Saxe-Wittenberg who was created after the partition of Saxony. They ultimately inherited the margraviate of Meißen which was the predecessor of electoral Saxony who was one of the most influential electoral states of the HRE, they strongly supported Luther and thus the reformation and inherited even the polish crown. But what if Saxe-Lauenburg at the elbe river which also was crated out of the old duchy of Saxony had received it instead and became the elctorate instead of Saxe-Wittenberg (IOTL Lauenburg almost got it)?

Then the Wettines never would have became electors, so maybe no early support for Luther and his reformation and no saxon-polish personal union. Oh, and the state in that region would still be called Meißen instead of Sachsen/Saxony.

Would the Welfs have tried to (re-)annex Saxe-Lauenburg earlier by inheriting it by marrying a daughter to the elector of Lauenburg? Would there have been a "resurgence" of something like a duchy of Saxony now as an electorate?

 

[Nuraghe]

In 1180 the giant influential duchy of Saxony was partitioned due to Heinrich dem Löwen didn't support Barbarossa. Years after the electoral votes were created and given to different states like the palatinate, bohemia etc. One of them was Saxe-Wittenberg who was created after the partition of Saxony. They ultimately inherited the margraviate of Meißen which was the predecessor of electoral Saxony who was one of the most influential electoral states of the HRE, they strongly supported Luther and thus the reformation and inherited even the polish crown. But what if Saxe-Lauenburg at the elbe river which also was crated out of the old duchy of Saxony had received it instead and became the elctorate instead of Saxe-Wittenberg (IOTL Lauenburg almost got it)?

Then the Wettines never would have became electors, so maybe no early support for Luther and his reformation and no saxon-polish personal union. Oh, and the state in that region would still be called Meißen instead of Sachsen/Saxony.

Would the Welfs have tried to (re-)annex Saxe-Lauenburg earlier by inheriting it by marrying a daughter to the elector of Lauenburg? Would there have been a "resurgence" of something like a duchy of Saxony now as an electorate?

technically the dispute between the Ascanids ( and then subsequently the Wettins ) against the Welfs, to decide who was the best family to inherit the electoral dignity, was very tough, considering that around 1238 - 1338 ( year of the Declaration of Rhense, which already saw Saxe-Wittenberg starting to gain an advantage over their rivals, further cementing their position with participation in the imperial elections of 1346, organized by the Pope Clemente VI, with the support of Baldwin, Archbishop of Trier, and uncle of Charles, one of the most important political actors in the HRE for decades ), there were were highly contested imperial votes in which both contenders for the role of elector participated, and above all with the election of Ludwig IV in 1314, where the vote expressed by the elector John II of Saxe-Lauenburg was decisive, but the whole process was considered invalidated both by the opposition made by his rival of Saxe-Wittenberg but also by archbishop of Cologne ( who pointed out irregularities, such as the participation of Henry of Carinthia, as Bohemian elector, although he had already been deposed as king by John of Luxembourg in 1310 ) therefore to maintain the Welfs as electors it would be necessary either that Louis IV manages to consolidate his grip on the throne and have enough political weight to decree an imperial bull prior to Otl ( therefore it would be necessary for the internal opposition to it in Germany to be less, but also to prevent relations with the Papacy from ruining so quickly resulting in excommunication and subsequent support for Charles IV ) or take advantage of the political chaos resulting from the great Interregnum, to try to obtain their own candidate for the royal title to make them emanate a law that definitively establishes how imperial elections take place and who has the right to participate, after all, it shouldn't be too difficult to imagine, given that Otto IV managed to become emperor even after the fragmentation of the original duchy of Saxony by Frederick Barbarossa, so if one of his descendants played his cards well during and after his reign of the Puer Apuliae, perhaps there would be some good chances to try to obtain the imperial title


@Kellan Sullivan

 

[Nuraghe]

technically the dispute between the Ascanids ( and then subsequently the Wettins ) against the Welfs, to decide who was the best family to inherit the electoral dignity, was very tough, considering that around 1238 - 1338 ( year of the Declaration of Rhense, which already saw Saxe-Wittenberg starting to gain an advantage over their rivals, further cementing their position with participation in the imperial elections of 1346, organized by the Pope Clemente VI, with the support of Baldwin, Archbishop of Trier, and uncle of Charles, one of the most important political actors in the HRE for decades ), there were were highly contested imperial votes in which both contenders for the role of elector participated, and above all with the election of Ludwig IV in 1314, where the vote expressed by the elector John II of Saxe-Lauenburg was decisive, but the whole process was considered invalidated both by the opposition made by his rival of Saxe-Wittenberg but also by archbishop of Cologne ( who pointed out irregularities, such as the participation of Henry of Carinthia, as Bohemian elector, although he had already been deposed as king by John of Luxembourg in 1310 ) therefore to maintain the Welfs as electors it would be necessary either that Louis IV manages to consolidate his grip on the throne and have enough political weight to decree an imperial bull prior to Otl ( therefore it would be necessary for the internal opposition to it in Germany to be less, but also to prevent relations with the Papacy from ruining so quickly resulting in excommunication and subsequent support for Charles IV ) or take advantage of the political chaos resulting from the great Interregnum, to try to obtain their own candidate for the royal title to make them emanate a law that definitively establishes how imperial elections take place and who has the right to participate, after all, it shouldn't be too difficult to imagine, given that Otto IV managed to become emperor even after the fragmentation of the original duchy of Saxony by Frederick Barbarossa, so if one of his descendants played his cards well during and after his reign of the Puer Apuliae, perhaps there would be some good chances to try to obtain the imperial title


@Kellan Sullivan

considering the important dynastic links between the Plantagenets and the Welfs in this period, I can see the latter possibly supporting the candidacy of Richard of Cornwall and his subsequent rule in the HRE ( although the problems he had in Otl would need to be resolved )

technically he had been officially recognized as the " only " Rex Romanorun around 1265s, furthermore the support from the Palatinate, Cologne and Mainz, and the coronation in Aachen, helped him in the dispute with Alfonso X of Castile ( although in fact Bohemia always remained ambiguous as to whether or not to recognize one of the two contenders, deciding several times not to take sides, so if Richard really wants to aspire to something more, he would need to convince Ottokar II to support him ) , but his real obstacle is that he did not possess a real personal state property of a fair size within the Reich ( hence his marriage to Beatrix of Falkenburg, with the aim of increasing his influence in the HRE, but unfortunately for him he spent little time in Germany and did not have the resources to impose itself on the princes and finally there is the problem of being recognized by the Pope, so it would be necessary to be able to organize a Romzung ( as it is called in German, the descent into Italy of the aspiring Emperor to be crowned in Rome ) and also be able to extricate oneself from intra-city conflicts between Guelphs and Ghibellines ) without forgetting that Richard was also distracted by the problems that were happening in England, in fact several times you had to give up continuing his policy in HRE to assist his brother against the barons


I'm not saying that it is impossible for Richard to be officially recognized as an HRE, but he would need conditions more favorable to him ( such as being able to use the imperial ban on a political opponent, in order to gain a fiefdom in the Reich, to be used as an initial basis for building his power in the Empire , being able to spend longer periods of time in Germany than Otl or at least visit it several times, get Bohemia on his side ( which was the main local power ), rebuild a central authority in the kingdom from scratch ( which required Rudolf I, at least 2 decades of conflicts and negotiations, which prevented him from being able to go to Italy with relative safety ) it is not even a given that he will then be able to have his son elected/confirmed as his successor ( it is probable that Richard is unicum , given that in this period the princes were tremendously suspicious of any would-be ruler who managed to gain any semblance of real power ) but at least in the event that he actually succeeds in having himself crowned Emperor, there is the possibility of political chaos within the HRE, addressed 30 years ahead of OTL ) even if he would actually have a small advantage on his side, especially if he were to maintain the support of the Palatinate, Mainz, Cologne and have Bohemia support him, i.e. the electoral college is not yet fully formalized / ossified, so he could exploit this detail to create new allies, promising an expansion of the college ( after all there is the precedent of Bohemia, which was a brand new addition to the group ) furthermore, to obtain the role of Saxony, the two dynastic branches created after the division of the duchy of Saxony by Frederick I are currently in open competition, therefore implementing a policy aimed at courting them to gain their support would not be a bad idea ( particularly considering that Albert I died in 1260, and then his sons immediately began to clash over the inheritance ) it certainly wouldn't be comparable to the result of getting their own relative on the imperial throne, but it would still be close enough, also not having a solid base within the Reich, Richard would be more available / malleable to support the Welf claims in the HRE

 

[Nuraghe]

considering the important dynastic links between the Plantagenets and the Welfs in this period, I can see the latter possibly supporting the candidacy of Richard of Cornwall and his subsequent rule in the HRE ( although the problems he had in Otl would need to be resolved )

technically he had been officially recognized as the " only " Rex Romanorun around 1265s, furthermore the support from the Palatinate, Cologne and Mainz, and the coronation in Aachen, helped him in the dispute with Alfonso X of Castile ( although in fact Bohemia always remained ambiguous as to whether or not to recognize one of the two contenders, deciding several times not to take sides, so if Richard really wants to aspire to something more, he would need to convince Ottokar II to support him ) , but his real obstacle is that he did not possess a real personal state property of a fair size within the Reich ( hence his marriage to Beatrix of Falkenburg, with the aim of increasing his influence in the HRE, but unfortunately for him he spent little time in Germany and did not have the resources to impose itself on the princes and finally there is the problem of being recognized by the Pope, so it would be necessary to be able to organize a Romzung ( as it is called in German, the descent into Italy of the aspiring Emperor to be crowned in Rome ) and also be able to extricate oneself from intra-city conflicts between Guelphs and Ghibellines ) without forgetting that Richard was also distracted by the problems that were happening in England, in fact several times you had to give up continuing his policy in HRE to assist his brother against the barons


I'm not saying that it is impossible for Richard to be officially recognized as an HRE, but he would need conditions more favorable to him ( such as being able to use the imperial ban on a political opponent, in order to gain a fiefdom in the Reich, to be used as an initial basis for building his power in the Empire , being able to spend longer periods of time in Germany than Otl or at least visit it several times, get Bohemia on his side ( which was the main local power ), rebuild a central authority in the kingdom from scratch ( which required Rudolf I, at least 2 decades of conflicts and negotiations, which prevented him from being able to go to Italy with relative safety ) it is not even a given that he will then be able to have his son elected/confirmed as his successor ( it is probable that Richard is unicum , given that in this period the princes were tremendously suspicious of any would-be ruler who managed to gain any semblance of real power ) but at least in the event that he actually succeeds in having himself crowned Emperor, there is the possibility of political chaos within the HRE, addressed 30 years ahead of OTL ) even if he would actually have a small advantage on his side, especially if he were to maintain the support of the Palatinate, Mainz, Cologne and have Bohemia support him, i.e. the electoral college is not yet fully formalized / ossified, so he could exploit this detail to create new allies, promising an expansion of the college ( after all there is the precedent of Bohemia, which was a brand new addition to the group ) furthermore, to obtain the role of Saxony, the two dynastic branches created after the division of the duchy of Saxony by Frederick I are currently in open competition, therefore implementing a policy aimed at courting them to gain their support would not be a bad idea ( particularly considering that Albert I died in 1260, and then his sons immediately began to clash over the inheritance ) it certainly wouldn't be comparable to the result of getting their own relative on the imperial throne, but it would still be close enough, also not having a solid base within the Reich, Richard would be more available / malleable to support the Welf claims in the HRE

for example, to strengthen his government, Richard could actively intervene in the Thuringian war of succession ( which broke out after the extinction of the Ludovingian dynasty, with the death of Henry Raspe in 1247, and which lasted until 1264 ) with the aim of obtaining allies ( among the various participants in the conflict : including the Margraviate of Meißen, the Electorate of Mainz, the count Sigfrid of Anhalt, the Duchy of Brabant, Brunswick-Lüneburg and even the Teutonic Order ) or a small state property in the region ( since the disputed inheritance was not limited to Thuringia alone, but also included the county of 'Hesse ) It is considered how important this conflict was in consolidating the Ascanids / Wettins as one of the most important princely families of the HRE, and it allowed them to further control the region ( as they prevented their rivals from obtaining Thuringia, which could have been used as a bridgehead to possibly attack Meiben, although they lost the region again between 1294 and 1308, when due to weakness and lack of funds, they had to sell Thuringia first to Adolf of Nassau and then it was occupied by Albert I of Habsburg ) so intervening in this conflict should strengthen the Welfs' chances of aspiring to the Elector position

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

ouis IV manages to consolidate his grip on the throne and have enough political weight to decree an imperial bull prior to Otl ( therefore it would be necessary for the internal opposition to it in Germany to be less, but also to prevent relations with the Papacy from ruining so quickly resulting in excommunication and subsequent support for Charles IV

so in short, essentially alternate electorates?
Saxe-Lauenburg instead of Saxe-Wittenberg/Meissen
Gorizia as the foreign vote instead of Bohemia
Liège instead of Cologne (even though Liège supported Ludwig's rival, Friedrich of Habsburg, it at least rejected the Luxemburgs)
Something in Bavaria instead of the Palatinate?

not sure what the others would be

 

[Nuraghe]

so in short, essentially alternate electorates?
Saxe-Lauenburg instead of Saxe-Wittenberg/Meissen
Gorizia as the foreign vote instead of Bohemia
Liège instead of Cologne (even though Liège supported Ludwig's rival, Friedrich of Habsburg, it at least rejected the Luxemburgs)
Something in Bavaria instead of the Palatinate?

not sure what the others would be

Unfortunately the ecclesiastical electorates ( Mainz first and foremost ) and partly Bohemia were already consolidated and accepted by 1291 ( with the former already considered essential to make an imperial election official since 1238 ) , only the question linked to Saxony remained ( given that both the Welfs and the Wettins aspired to the role ) and to the Palatinate ( declared enemy of Ludwig ) in addition obviously to the situation in Italy ( which we have already discussed extensively elsewhere ) so if anything we will see Louis focus on strengthening the principles loyal to him ( considering that John I of Bohemia was still on good terms with Louis until at least the 1330s, I don't see it being excluded, but I can see a possible imperial ban ( and subsequent deposition ) coming on the figure of Baldwin, Archbishop of Trier, given that he was the leading figure in the Reich and that he played the role of king maker several times, in case he decides to change sides again and how OTL supports the papal plans to create an Anti-King in opposition to Louis )