Von Rundstedt gets his way - Germans fall back to defend Paris

I don't think you understand the German position.

Oh, I understand the German position just fine. I also understand that the German position was completely unrealistic. After early=1943, the Western Allies and the Soviets were not going to accept anything less then unconditional surrender. After early-1943, the Germans also have no ability to avoid total defeat. The only kind of choice in this manner they actually have is when to accept unconditional surrender, not whether.

And, people like Patton wanted Ike to accept a separate unconditional surrender just to the Western Allies

Neither Patton nor Eisenhower were in position to dictate that kind of change in Allied policy. Their opinion in such a manner would largely be irrelevant. Furthermore, Eisenhower was consistent in sticking to a position of unconditional surrender and never appeared to really have questioned it.

The Japanese managed to convince the Western Allies to be able to only surrender to them not to the Soviets at the same time as well as to keep a certain cadre of people from the noose including the Emperor.

Um... The Japanese unconditional surrender was as much to the Soviets as it was to the Western Allies. That is why there is was a Soviet representative at the surrender ceremony who put his signature on the document and why the document mentions the Soviet Union twice.

Japanese Instrument of Surrender Text said:
We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.
...
Accepted at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 09.08 on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945, for the United States, Republic of China, United Kingdom and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and in the interests of the other United Nations at war with Japan.
...
Douglas MacArthur
Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers

C. W. Nimitz
United States Representative

Hsu Yung-chang
Republic of China Representative

Bruce Fraser
United Kingdom Representative

Kuzma Derevyanko
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics Representative


Thomas Blamey
Commonwealth of Australia Representative

Lawrence Moore Cosgrave
Dominion of Canada Representative

Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque
Provisional Government of the French Republic Representative

C. E. L. Helfrich
Kingdom of the Netherlands Representative

Leonard M. Isitt
Dominion of New Zealand Representative

After the second nuking we sent feelers in the press that we would let the Emperor live and that was a condition enough for him.

Not at all what we said. What we said was that after the surrender it would be up to MacArthur as to what would happen to the Emperor. That wasn't a condition to preserve the Emperor. It wasn't even a promise to preserve the Emperor. It was just a statement of how the fate of the Emperor would be decided post-surrender, not what that fate might be.

For the German generals in the West they would have accepted a lot, but not the Soviets taking half the country and not its de-industrialization without being defeated first on the field of battle.

Well, in the aftermath of a failed D-Day the most likely option is to see the entirety of their country get overrun and looted by the Soviets before getting divided anyways.
 
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Oh, I understand the German position just fine. I also understand that the German position was completely unrealistic. After early=1943, the Western Allies and the Soviets were not going to accept anything less then unconditional surrender. After early-1943, the Germans also have no ability to avoid total defeat. The only kind of choice in this manner they actually have is when to accept unconditional surrender, not whether

Unconditional surrender was one thing, but it wasn't the only thing they tacked on to the surrender.

The Washington Post urged a stop to helping Dr. Goebbels: if the Germans suspect that nothing but complete destruction lies ahead, then they will fight on. The Republican presidential candidate Thomas Dewey complained in his campaign that the Germans had been terrified by the plan into fanatical resistance, "Now they are fighting with the frenzy of despair."

General George Marshall complained to Morgenthau that German resistance had strengthened. Hoping to get Morgenthau to relent on his plan for Germany, President Roosevelt's son-in-law Lt. Colonel John Boettiger who worked in the War Department explained to Morgenthau how the American troops who had had to fight for five weeks against fierce German resistance to capture the city of Aachen had complained to him that the Morgenthau Plan was "worth thirty divisions to the Germans." Morgenthau refused to relent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

FDR wanted a war to the end with Germany, he did not want them to surrender in the West and his policies as well as bad luck on the part of the German generals who wanted peace achieved his aims of a war to the bitter end. That war to the bitter end meant the worst months of the Final Solution happened and Stalin got a lot more territory and was much more powerful during the Cold War and many more people had to live under Soviet oppression.
 
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Unconditional surrender was one thing, but it wasn't the only thing they tacked on to the surrender.

That was not part of the declaration of surrender as issued after the Teheran Conference. So no, it was not something that was "tacked on to" the surrender.

It should also be observed that (A) the Morgenthau plan was not made public until September 21, 1944 and (B) the decision to embrace the Morgenthau Plan was never ultimately made. Roosevelt in the end postponed that decision until after the war ended. This decision, interestingly was never actually made, even after Roosevelt died and the war ended. The Morgenthau Plan was never formally accepted... but neither was it ever formally rejected. Technically, it still exists in a state of limbo.

Interesting...

FDR wanted a war to the end with Germany

No, he wanted an end to the war which meant the permanent end of any potential threat from Germany. And his view was shared by both Churchill and Stalin. This ultimately meant an insistence on unconditional surrender.

That war to the bitter end meant the worst months of the Final Solution happened and Stalin got a lot more territory and was much more powerful during the Cold War and many more people has to live under Soviet oppression.

All of this is as much (actually, probably even more) the fault of the German military leadership as it is Roosevelt's.
 
No, he wanted an end to the war which meant the permanent end of any potential threat from Germany. And his view was shared by both Churchill and Stalin. This ultimately meant an insistence on unconditional surrender.

All of this is as much (actually, probably even more) the fault of the German military leadership as it is Roosevelt's.

Even Churchill who wanted a permanently hobbled Germany didn't want to be 'chained to a corpse' in his words. FDR used the 6 billion dollar LL agreement to force his hand and sign on. The thing is even though the policy was put in place 'sort of' on September 16th of 1944 such proposals were already coming out by the start of 1944 to forever hobble Germany (deindustrialization wasn't the only one) from leading policy makers talking in the Western press about how to forever end Germany's ability to make war and the German generals were reading the Western press at the time.

The thing about unconditional surrender is its sort of a jack in the box sort of thing. You surrender and you don't know if you your country will be divided into 7 or 8 states an option talked about or your country deindustrialized or any of the other radical policies being openly talked about.

At the Second Quebec Conference on September 16, 1944, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Henry Morgenthau, Jr. persuaded the initially very reluctant British Prime Minister Winston Churchill to agree to the plan, likely using a $6 billion Lend Lease agreement to do so. Churchill chose however to narrow the scope of Morgenthau's proposal by drafting a new version of the memorandum, which ended up being the version signed by the two statesmen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

The coup in Berlin was an abysmal failure, but the coup in France at the same time was far more successful. Von Kluge wussed out on going forward with the battlefield surrender to the Western Allies and Rommel had been taken out three days before then by air power.

Would Rommel have stiffened Kluge's spine and got them to have gone forward with the surrender of the German Armies in the West? Its hard to say, but it would make for an interesting TL.
 
The thing about unconditional surrender is its sort of a jack in the box sort of thing. You surrender and you don't know if you your country will be divided into 7 or 8 states an option talked about or your country deindustrialized or any of the other radical policies being openly talked about.

And yet if they don't surrender, they might get all of that anyways plus all of the consequences of physical combat action on German soil.

As I said, the Germans did not ever have any choice about whether to accept unconditional surrender only when.

The coup in Berlin was an abysmal failure, but the coup in France at the same time was far more successful. Von Kluge wussed out on going forward with the battlefield surrender to the Western Allies and Rommel had been taken out three days before then by air power.

What? What coup in France? You mean the Parisian revolt? That wasn't German at all. And the German leaders in the West did everything in their power to sustain resistance against the Western Allies while still preserving their power. Those German armies which were not cut-off and destroyed at Falaise and similar pockets were able to mount a successful fighting withdrawal back to Belgium and the western border of Germany. This concerted resistance, alongside Western Allied logistical problems, was critical in preventing the war ending in late-1944 instead of May 1945.

The Germans never conspired to achieve their own collapse in the West. The German military leadership, both those who tried to kill Hitler and those who remained slavishly loyal to the German regime, never seem to have even considered it. The latter attacked the former (Men like Guderian and Manstein went on tirades about the "despicable actions" of the Valkyrie plotter when they found out about the attempt) and the former were thinking that first they could achieve a peace without any military collapse.
 
What? What coup in France? You mean the Parisian revolt? That wasn't German at all. And the German leaders in the West did everything in their power to sustain resistance against the Western Allies while still preserving their power. Those German armies which were not cut-off and destroyed at Falaise and similar pockets were able to mount a successful fighting withdrawal back to Belgium and the western border of Germany. This concerted resistance, alongside Western Allied logistical problems, was critical in preventing the war ending in late-1944 instead of May 1945.

The Germans never conspired to achieve their own collapse in the West. The German military leadership, both those who tried to kill Hitler and those who remained slavishly loyal to the German regime, never seem to have even considered it. The latter attacked the former (Men like Guderian and Manstein went on tirades about the "despicable actions" of the Valkyrie plotter when they found out about the attempt) and the former were thinking that first they could achieve a peace without any military collapse.

Look at what happened in Paris on July 20th. The SS and Gestapo in the city were arrested. The coup in Paris which was planned to coincide with the July 20th plot did work, but von Kluge backed out when he heard Hitler with still alive with the words... 'well if the pig were dead'.

On the day in question, 20 July 1944, Stülpnagel put his part of the plot into operation. This mainly involved having Hans Otfried von Linstow, who was only informed of the plot on that same day, round up all SS and Gestapo officers in Paris and imprison them.

However, when it became apparent that the assassination attempt in East Prussia had failed, Stülpnagel was unable to convince Field Marshal Günther von Kluge to support the uprising and was forced to release his prisoners. When Stülpnagel was recalled from Paris, he stopped at Verdun and tried to kill himself by shooting himself in the head with a pistol on the banks of the Meuse River. He only succeeded in blinding himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl-Heinrich_von_Stülpnagel

The plan was to offer the Western Allies an armistice with Berlin in chaos because of the July 20th plot. The British found this out a few months later by wiretapping German generals who were POWs.

23da-1.png~original


So, you had two sets of plots going on one in Paris and one in Berlin. Caesar von Hofacker was the intermediary between them. The only difference is the July Plotters still thought a surrender with conditions was possible and the Marshals in France knew it wasn't going to happen at that point and were hoping for an unopposed march in to Berlin by the WAllies.

There is a reason why much of the German military leadership in Paris was either killed or forced to kill themselves in the weeks and months after July 20th.
 
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Getting back to the OP... first lets review some core content of a excellent post. This is one way, & a good way, such a German strategy could work.

...
von Rundstedt thought that this would mean the divisions would be attacking piecemeal, and would lack sufficient strength to push the Allies back into the sea; his preferred strategy was to concentrate the panzer divisions as a reserve, back from the landing beaches and in a central location until the whereabouts of the invasion could be determined, then he would attack with all of the panzer divisions together, an blow that the Allies would be unable to resist.

von Rundstedt then wanted to conduct a fighting withdraw, falling back to each major river line and making the Allies fight hard for the ground, essentially trading ground for time while husbanding his forces. Rommel for his part wanted to shorten his line, giving up the Cotentin and concentrating his forces in the critical ground behind Caen and there defeating the Allies in localised counterattacks as they tried to fight their way out towards Paris.

.....

von Rundstedt army had been allowed to conduct a fighting withdraw towards the Seine and beyond, then the initial Allied advance would have been faster, but the German army would not have collapsed in August, allowing the Allies to sprint forwards as far as their supply lines would allow them to, to the very border of Germany in a matter of five weeks.


The allies would have had to fight their way through northern France, which would have given the Germans time to demolish the channel ports (most critically Antwerp), and the troops stationed in the ports would not have been overrun and isolated; essentially lost to the defence of the Reich. The Allies may not have been approaching the Siegfried Line until December '44, and would have lost a lot more men in the process. With the major ports of Europe wrecked, the Allies would have then begun to really struggle to support the armies as they went beyond the Meuse and Moselle, stretching allied supply lines to the very limit.

This is also close to what the Allies expected the German strategy to be, and what they prepared to fight. The battle in the bocage country of Normandy was a suprise to them, and being stalled there for fifty plus days was not expected. Neither was the two weeks needed to capture Chebourg, nor the inability to execute Operation Chasity - the establshment of a third prefab port at Quberon Bay in mid July. the were some positive suprises for the Allies, but I'll get to those later. what is important at this point is the Allies were better prepared for figithng in the interior of France in June/July 19444 than for the actual battle in their Norman coastal enclave.

Now here area couple other good posts with some points that should be examined.

But they can't pull that off. Germany simply doesn't have the airpower or the tank divisions to place a force capable of crushing an Allied landing on every Northern French beach. Or rather they do but they're in Russia fighting for their lives. Rundstedt's strategy wasn't going to win the war for Germany but then no strategy could do that. However by trading space for time and making the allies pay for every French hamlet and river between Normandy and the Rhine they could inflict much more harm to the Allies at much less cost than their OTL strategy of holding on in Normandy until they Allies achieve a catastrophic (for Germany) breakthrough which see the Allies reach the Rhine in five weeks.

So, there the questions are: Can this strategy work vs Allied strength in the air, and in motorization? In June & July the Allies were able to average ten bomber or fighter sorties for each German combat aircraft sortie. Even at the peak of approx 1300 sorties per day the Germans had to confine most to night ops. Their losses by day were too large.

On the ground the Brits & US 12, 21, & 6th Army Groups came as close to 100% motorization as any Army in WWII. At its best in the west roughly half the German 'mobile' divisions had horse drawn artillery and internal supply transport. I dont have a count of divisions, or corps units for comparison at hand right now, but consider that with their attached tank and TD battalions the average US or Commonwealth infantry division had as many or more armored vehicles than most Panzer divisions of the summer of 1944. Also despite the presence of a few Panther and Tiger battalions the overall quality of the Allied armor was equivalent to the German.

Add in the ability to motorize their infantry at the operational level vs the German foot infantry & there is a clear disparity.

Or the Allies build up their Strength and achieve a Blitzkrieg in reverse with their much more mobile army's vs a more spread out German army rather than fighting a very intense battle of attrition that resulted in a relatively small battlefield.

Basically the allies get to choose where they fight

I dislike the word "bliztkrieg", and in any common usage it does not describe the British or US operational methods of 1944. Still at the tactical, and operational levels the last line in that quote sums it up. The Allies in the west have the ability to concentrate where the think best and to do so very rapidly.

Here are my remaining thoughts on this.

1. The Allies did expect to fight a mobile of fluid battle in the interior. Armies they had organized & trained in the UK were prepared for this as best they could anticipate.

2. The Allies did not expect to capture adaquate port facilities in the short run, and they knew from experience the German would demolish the ports. To counter that they had prepared the two Mulberry harbors and that for Quiberon Bay. Between those the Allies have enough port capacity to D+90 for the 12th & 21st AG. They also prepared salvage and construction units/material for restoring a couple of existing ports. That was a sucess. While the Germans destroyed the port of Cherbourg far more than the US Army or Navy expected they also repaired it far faster than the Germans expected. By mid August Chebourg was taking in 50% more than its nominal peace time capacity of 8,000 to 10,000 tons per day, and it hit a peak of over 20,000 per day a few weeks later.

3. The Allies had expected to restore the French railways in sync with the estimated advance. The stall in Normandy for fifty days prevent railway reconstruction out of Normandy, and backed up material and rail service units in the US and UK. The sudden surge across France left the rail restoration in a state or frantic catch up. That was not completed until about D+200 to 220, which is approx when they had anticipated. A series of delaying positions across France plays into the Allied capability, allowing the rail transport to keep pace. That resolves most of the Allied supply problems, unless the German delaying armies are destroyed and the Allied surge forward again.

4. Any sucess of the German delaying strategy depends on maximum motorized formations included. That also implies the better quality formations. Cherbourg fell swiftly because it was defended by poorly led second or third rate formations. Brest held out for many weeks because the timely reinforcement of a elite Para div bolstered it with decent leadership and top quality soldiers. Reinforcing the ports with such top tier units weakens and interior defense. The defender cant have it both ways, there are not enough top quality battalions. Or even medium quality. In any case by September the Allies had between the Cherbourg port group and the Marsailles group a intake of over 50,000 tons daily. It was not necessary to capture more ports in August/September. If the Quiberon Bay facility is operating then Antwerp becomes less important. Bottom line is the Allied supply problems were from transport, not ports.

5. Few to none of these internal defense strategies consider the effect of Operation Dragoon and the 6th AG pounding up from the south. Patch and Devers had perhaps the most sucessfull west Allied campaign in 1944, or from 1939 for that matter. In theory they could have been stalled with a adaquate defense of the Rhone river corridor. But, that requires a couple more corps, of good quality mobile units, & where are those to come from? Abandoning central Italy is the only option, and that assumes the Germans correctly anticipate a invasion of south France. Which they did not.

A lot more to this, but it will do for now.
 
The plan was to offer the Western Allies an armistice with Berlin in chaos because of the July 20th plot. The British found this out a few months later by wiretapping German generals who were POWs.

Oh that. Well, it would have failed anyways even if Kluge had not backed out. He would have been taken down by the SS and Wehrmacht units once they found out Hitler was alive and Kluge was acting against him. In any case, the Western Allied immediate reply to a request for an armistice would have been a firm no followed by a repeat of the demand for unconditional surrender.
 
While a armistice would be out of the question local capitulation would have been accepted. It invariably was when offered. Usually by trapped and besieged or overrun Germany corps or armies, but if Rommel or some other offers to surrender any forces that cant outrun the Allied armies it would be accepted in some form. When offered the surrender of the Axis armies trapped in Tunisia Eisenhower did not quibble over the soldiers that had fled or were fleeing to Italy. He took the 180,000 and started plans for the next lot.

Similarly when Italy offered to capitulate the terms were not fully unconditional despite the UCS policy Roosevelt promulgated eight months earlier at Casablanca. Ike took took all he could get and left the remainder for later.

If in the middle of the Normandy battle Rommel or Kluge had offered to surrender all the ports & their garrisons, the bulk of the 1st, 7th, & 15th field armies and guarantee unimpeded access to Paris and other cities in France I doubt Ike would have rejected out of hand because several of the mechanized corps would escape somewhere east of the Rhine, or other armies in Norway or Sarajevo were not yet surrendering.
 
If in the middle of the Normandy battle Rommel or Kluge had offered to surrender all the ports & their garrisons, the bulk of the 1st, 7th, & 15th field armies and guarantee unimpeded access to Paris and other cities in France I doubt Ike would have rejected out of hand because several of the mechanized corps would escape somewhere east of the Rhine, or other armies in Norway or Sarajevo were not yet surrendering.

True enough on Eisenhowers account. Unfortunately for Rommel, Kluge, or any other German commander who tried this they would not be able to make good on any such surrender offer before they are relieved of their command and shot as traitors. The entirety of their command staff and a healthy portion of their subordinates and THEIR command staffs would have to actively collude with them for that to work. Just a single staff officer or subordinate CO with Nazi sympathies going "You are disobeying the Fuhrer!" and shooting off a message to Berlin could torpedo the whole thing. Or most of it. Some units (especially those encircled) would probably still manage to surrender before the counter-order by whatever replacement commander makes it's way down but nowhere near enough to cause an immediate collapse.
 
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A nice plan, until you realise that withdrawing in Russia isn't possible, Withdrawing in Italy will not only allow the Allies free-reign there, but allow them to also withdraw troops from there

True, but i think if victory could be achieved it would have to be done by massing as much forces as possible on the Western front. Bringing over to the Western front the 9th SS, 10th SS, 3rd SS, 4th SS and the Herman Goering Division will at least give the Germans a fighting chance.

The 9th SS and 10th SS can be brought over in May and the 3rd SS, 4th SS and Herman Goering can arrive, as reinforcements, in late July.
 
True enough on Eisenhowers account. Unfortunately for Rommel, Kluge, or any other German commander who tried this they would not be able to make good on any such surrender offer before they are relieved of their command and shot as traitors. The entirety of their command staff and a healthy portion of their subordinates and THEIR command staffs would have to actively collude with them for that to work. Just a single staff officer or subordinate CO with Nazi sympathies going "You are disobeying the Fuhrer!" and shooting off a message to Berlin could torpedo the whole thing. Or most of it. Some units (especially those encircled) would probably still manage to surrender before the counter-order by whatever replacement commander makes it's way down but nowhere near enough to cause an immediate collapse.

That is why they were waiting for Berlin to be in chaos after the July Plot as I don't think the Marshals believed they had the mainline support from the rank and file to win a direct fight with Hitler. Rommel's troops that I imagine he thought would have been loyal to him over Hitler in such a case were sitting in POW camps in the U.S. and Britain so other then the 7th Panzer division he was very short on troops he had won over by fighting with.

If the July Plotters blow up Berlin's radio station and the German generals in the West have the lines of telephone and telegraph communication cut then its a different story. If you fail to take over Berlin, you have to at least decapitate Hitler's ability to communicate with the world and receive direct information from the front for at least 2-3 days which was easier in 1944 then one might think.

Rommel I think was ready to push his luck even if the July Plot had failed by late July, but Kluge on his own wasn't. He might have been if the lines of communication to Berlin (including radio that the troops listened to) had been severed.
 
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True that Rommel can not create a orderly organized mass surrender. But, through rapid action he can create conditions that hand over most of France and large chunks of the German army there. This occuring in early to mid July allows the Allies to break out of Normandy a couple weeks early, and crates conditions for the sort of pockets that occured in August OTL. Op Anvil may be accelerated by a few weeks as a smaller coup de main against demoralized German garrisons or a abandoned Marsailles.
 
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